Today, we want to share the final product lineup and specifications you can expect to see for the next release of Visual Studio. This also includes system requirements and platform you can develop for with Visual Studio 11.
Product Lineup
In addition to the product line up announced previously we will also be releasing Visual Studio Express for Windows Phone as part the Visual Studio family. Visual Studio 11 Express products are designed to be simple and easy for building modern applications on the latest Microsoft platforms, including Windows 8, Windows Phone, Windows Azure and for the Web. Express products support multiple languages, specific to each platform. For example, the Express edition for Windows 8 allows developers to use C#, Visual Basic, C++ and JavaScript. It also provides best-in-class tools for creating Metro style apps for Windows 8, including tools such as Blend, app profiling, unit testing and more. To see the full product line up, please visit the Visual Studio product website.
If you would like to use a language specific Express edition (C# Express, Visual Basic Express, or C++ Express) without specialized tooling for the latest platforms, you can use the Visual Studio 2010 Express editions, which will continue to be available as free downloads.
A common question that we’ve received since the Visual Studio 11 Beta release is related to tooling support for Windows Phone and Windows Azure. To make sure customers have the latest tools with the latest platform offering we’ll be releasing Visual Studio Express for Windows Phone with the next release of Windows Phone. Similarly, Windows Azure tooling will be available in conjunction with the next Windows Azure update. Until then, you can continue to use Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone to create Windows Phone apps, and Windows Azure SDK for .NET (with Visual Studio 2010) to create Windows Azure cloud services.
Finally, LightSwitch, which launched last year as an out-of-band release, is now officially part of the Visual Studio 11 core product family. LightSwitch features will be available through Visual Studio 11 Professional, Premium, and Ultimate editions. For more information, please visit the LightSwitch team blog.
System Requirements
As you have seen in our earlier series on Visual Studio 11 performance, we’ve made some significant investments in performance this release. We are excited about the feedback we’ve received so far and have been working to make the experience even better for RC. We are happy to announce that Visual Studio 11 hardware requirements will be the same as Visual Studio 2010’s. If you are working now with Visual Studio 2010 you can enjoy the new performance improvements in Visual Studio 11 without any additional hardware investment.
Visual Studio 11 leverages core capabilities that are only present in the latest versions of Windows. For this reason Visual Studio 11 requires Windows 7 or higher to run.
Platform Targeting Support
To help you take advantage of the latest features, the default target for applications created with Visual Studio 11 will be set to .NET Framework 4.5 (for managed apps) and the VC11 toolset (for native apps). Both will allow your apps to run on Windows Vista and higher. However, if your app needs to run on Windows XP or Windows Server 2003, you can still use multi-targeting to make sure your application will run on those platforms too.
Managed developers can target your new or existing applications to “.NET Framework 4” or the “.NET Framework 4 Client Profile”, both of which have the ability to run on Windows XP or Windows Server 2003. (This will also work for earlier versions of the .NET Framework, such as .NET 2.0, .NET 3.0 and .NET 3.5.) Note that when you update your app to target .NET Framework 4, you can continue using the new Async features by installing the Async Targeting Pack for Visual Studio 11. Tooling innovations such as new designers for desktop applications, enhanced support for HTML5, JavaScript and advanced tools like Page Inspector for web development all work for .NET Framework 4. New tools for quality enablement (such as Exploratory Testing) or team collaboration (such as agile planning, Intellitrace in production or stakeholder feedback) are all available for.NET Framework 4 as well. You can find additional information on managed multi-targeting on MSDN.
C++ developers can also use the multi-targeting capability included in Visual Studio 11 to continue using the compilers and libraries included in Visual Studio 2010 to target Windows XP and Windows Server 2003. Multi-targeting for C++ applications currently requires a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010. Separately, we are evaluating options for C++ that would enable developers to directly target XP without requiring a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010 and intend to deliver this update post-RTM. You can find more information on C++ multi-targeting here.
For details on today’s announcement visit the Visual Studio 11 website.
The Visual Studio Team
$500 entry level? I paid half that for this 2010 Pro as an upgrade. How is paying twice as much, less? Oh, right, I'm not fluent in redmondian.
RE: "Separately, we are evaluating options for C++ that would enable developers to directly target XP without requiring a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010 and intend to deliver this update post-RTM"
My vote would be to support XP in the VS11 distributable binaries for MFC and MSVCRT. Then we can build native apps in VS11 using all of the C++ 11 goodies we keep hearing about! Would love to see this delivered post-RTM – I'm willing to wait…
Wait… what? Did I read that the express editions do not support developing non-metro apps? I was looking forward very much to the release of VS11 but this is really a punch in the face. I know Microsoft is pushing metro like crazy but I never expected that you'd leave all desktop hobby developers behind like this. I'm very disappointed with this decision and I really hope it changes before release. 🙁
…will actually run on Windows Phone. That would be awesome.
I'm glad to hear that there WILL be a post-RTM update to allow the VC11 compiler, CRT and MFC to target Windows XP. Hopefully this post-RTM update will be only a month or two after RTM, since as far as many developers are concerned, it won't be available for their use until after this fix.
'Managed developers can target your new or existing applications to “.NET Framework 4” or the “.NET Framework 4 Client Profile”, both of which have the ability to run on Windows XP or Windows Server 2003.'
So, is this official confirmation that the .NET Framework 4.5 will not run on Windows NT <6.0?
'Desktop application development
Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 provides tools for Metro style app development. To create desktop apps, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher. In addition, Visual Studio 2010 Express products – Visual Basic 2010 Express, Visual C++ 2010 Express, and Visual C# 2010 Express – will remain available for free download.'
Wow. I guess Microsoft is keen to push Metro-style app development, but what a terrible decision. Did this order come from on high?
The list prices for 2010 Pro upgrade was $550. Nothing obligates MS to discount the MSRP of their new version to match the best sale prices of the old one.
If MS expects one to pay for it, then yes, it is obligated to make it available for non-monopoly pricing. Hear, hear!
So you've gutted express. That hurts. When has the "stick" approach ever worked? You wouldn't be able to handle the heat if you did it with one of the other 15 editions, so you did it to those who are least likely/able to fight back.
Express was brilliant. It seemed like the people [inside devdiv] who 'get it' were winning. I bet they were fighting this tooth and nail and all they managed to get was a few links to the old versions. Express is powerful.
I suppose you look it as a "doubling down" on WinRT. *sigh*
But hey, you've made a concession for targeting XP. That's a nice sweeter for those who are left, I guess.
It's pretty disillusioning and disappointing, that's all.
So, when corporations either don't buy VS 11 or are angry when they buy it not realizing that "target" means unsupported, what are you planning to do?
XP has 20% to 40% of all the installed computers (according to Wikipedia). It is just insane to not have .net 4.5 not support that many computers.
No XP support is yet more evidence that Microsoft has abandoned the Enteprise developer.
@GregM:
"I'm glad to hear that there WILL be a post-RTM update to allow the VC11 compiler, CRT and MFC to target Windows XP. Hopefully this post-RTM update will be only a month or two after RTM, since as far as many developers are concerned, it won't be available for their use until after this fix."
Huh? I only see the promise to allow multi-targeting to VS10 without having to install it. I don't see the promise to modify the compiler, CRT and MFC in VS11 to support XP.
Microsoft, did I read it wrong? What do you mean by "options for C++ that would enable developers to directly target XP without requiring a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010"? Are you still talking about multi-targeting (seems this way) or are you talking about modifying the compiler to support XP?
Very ambigious response with regards to XP targeting. Will a post-RTM update allow us to use the VS11 toolset (i.e. C++11 compiler/libraries, ConcRT, etc.) AND target XP?
If you are merely making the VS2010 toolset available for VS11 without a side-by-side installation, you clearly have not listened to your customers. What use would that be? Why could we not just use VS2010..?
Guess we'll consider upgrading when this "post-RTM" update arrives. But then we might as well also wait and see if those "post-RTM" updates for C++11 support end up being more than just talk. Executive summary: there's nothing for us in VS11 at launch. Post-release? We'll have to wait and see, but your track record is bad. There weren't a lot of features added in VS10 post-release, after all.
And let's not even get into the problem that your free compiler will no longer be able to make general-purpose applications. I feel sorry for everyone learning to program, who will no longer be able to make all the usual learning programs, which
don't really require Metro, and which might involve such heinous crimes as background processing (computing digits of pi, or finding prime numbers, or whatever)
You really know how to surgically remove value from a product, don't you?
Regarding VC++11 and XP targeting.
This is frustrating. Post-RTM, how much later? And notice how they say they are still evaluating these options, it's not a sure thing. This evaluation has lasted for 4 weeks now. The low complexity (it's simple) of making XP targeting available does not justify delaying it for post-RTM.
I also find it strange how .NET and C#/VB always get mentioned before native development and C++ in Microsoft's blog posts/articles/documentation.
Now let's look at UserVoice items. All the top items are about C++ if we leave out the UI suggestions. It seems the .NET crowd only cares if the UI is ALL CAPS or not.
It also seems that these native development conferences (GoingNative etc) are hosted only to give a false impression of C++ being valued at Microsoft.
I'm going to start looking at the possibility of using MinGW. If it's enough for my needs, I'll never come back to VC++.
@Chris and others (@Paul, @grumpy, …):
(I have posted this already on vcblog, but I think it is important enough to post it here as well, read on and hopefully you will agree with me.)
"This is frustrating. Post-RTM, how much later? And notice how they say they are still evaluating these options, it's not a sure thing. This evaluation has lasted for 4 weeks now. The low complexity (it's simple) of making XP targeting available does not justify delaying it for post-RTM."
The biggest issue is not this, the biggest issue is that they still seem to be talking about supporting XP via multi-targeting to a different compiler. The "option" they seem to be evaluating is likely a checkbox in the installation package for VS11 which reads "support for XP" and installs the compiler from VS10. They are solving the wrong problem. They are helping a couple of people for whom multi-targeting is a solution. They are NOT helping the majority of the people for whom multi-targeting is NOT a solution, not at RTM, nor post-RTM.
@Chris, how about C++ Builder ? C++ 11 for Windows/Mac/Android/iOS ? With a great IDE ? and great frameworks like VCL/FireMonkey ?
blogs.embarcadero.com/…/34848
edn.embarcadero.com/…/42275
> Separately, we are evaluating options for C++ that would enable developers to directly target XP without requiring a side-by-side installation of Visual Studio 2010 and intend to deliver this update post-RTM.
Does this mean that post-RTM will allow the VC11 compiler to directly target XP, thus allowing us to use C++11 on XP? Please, a clear answer instead of stalling us C++ developers yet again.
Nearly a 1000 comments in the previous post, mostly discussing a particular issue, and you don't address that issue in the next blog post?
Interesting.
On that issue I would suggest that Metro design guidelines are not applicable to Windows development, which includes the VS IDE. I guess we're going to have dozens of frankenstein user interfaces. You'd think VS would be immune to that.
Visual Studio 11 Express will not be able to target pre-Win8? Do you realize how many open source developers this will hinder? You seem to have totally lost the connection to your users. Good riddance.
"Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 provides tools for Metro style app development. To create desktop apps, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher. In addition, Visual Studio 2010 Express products – Visual Basic 2010 Express, Visual C++ 2010 Express, and Visual C# 2010 Express – will remain available for free download."
Is the person responsible for these decisions trying to sabotage Microsoft?
The ability for Express editions to create desktop apps isn't something you had to create because it was already there. So…you're just taking out existing functionality to try and force development of Metro apps???? How raw can you guys get??? I really thought the "evil" of Microsoft was actually gone. Still runs in the veins I guess.
RE: Express editions can no longer create desktop apps…
evidence that MS is scared that Metro might not succeed (on its own) without twisting people's arms. Talk about lack of self-confidence…
I would not be surprised when they'll later postpone Windows XP support to next version – just as any other bugs which never got fixed in the current release and always promised to be fixed in next version.
When it is time for the next version (VC++ 12) support for targeting Windows XP had been dropped as Windows XP is no longer supported.
Therefore I would not expect to have Windows XP as target for VC++ 11 and we'll be forced to used multi targeting feature but can't benefit from the C++ languages enhancement in VC++ 11.
Is there a WPF designer of good quality in VS 2011? Hand editing xaml in vs 2010 is slow.
What? No VS Express for non-Metro apps?
Considering the quality of other IDEs, I'd bet VS will soon be cracked as much as Photoshop…
interesting, see http://www.microsoft.com/…/compatibility
native remote debugging not available for Vista. So even though its a native targeted platform there's no way you can debug on it. Windows 7 and above is the only platform you can debug on.
another interesting thing left out "Windows Server 2008" non-R2 (i.e. Windows Vista Server) is completely left out of the chart.
Please, add threads windows to the Express. With today multi-core era, this is very basic tool for development
1 in every 3 or 4 instances of our application runs on Windows XP (25% – 33%). We can't leave XP behind right now, but I appreciate that this move (while it hurts) might help us in the medium- to long-term.
Guess I am waiting for VS 12 and .net 5.0. There is no point in upgrading to vs 11 just so I can do what VS 2010 does now (target .net 4.0 for xp support).
I imagine VS 12 will be out when XP goes off support (2014). I will just have to wait till then (I hope vs 12 support windows 7).
Mirosoft has failed so many times in the mobile space. Windows CE, Windows Mobile (both only failed on the consumer side of things), windows phone 7 are just the big ones.
MS has realized that they can't really compete with Apple's integrated OS and hardware. So the are doing the next best thing (in their minds), that is make all developers almost have to use Metro and Win RT.
I imagine it will die out in a few years (like silverlight). I just got to find a way past it until MS dumps it (like they did Windows CE, Windows Mobile, windows Phone and Silverlight).
Mirosoft has failed so many times in the mobile space. Windows CE, Windows Mobile (both only failed on the consumer side of things), windows phone 7 are just the big ones.
MS has realized that they can't really compete with Apple's integrated OS and hardware. So the are doing the next best thing (in their minds), that is make all developers almost have to use Metro and Win RT.
I imagine it will die out in a few years (like silverlight). I just got to find a way past it until MS dumps it (like they did Windows CE, Windows Mobile, windows Phone and Silverlight).
With your decision to remove support for the desktop from the express versions you just lost one possible customer.
No way I am going to upgrade to Windows 8, if I have to take Metro down my throat and cannot make use of C++11 to target desktop applications.
No C99 support, C++/CX used instead of proper C++11 capabilities, not being able to target XP out of the box and now forced to keep using Visual Studio 2010 Express if I want to target the desktop.
Time to move to a multiplatform GUI toolkit, with a compiler toolchain from the competition.
I've created an analysis of the direction Visual Studio 11 (2012) has taken. To do that I also had to analyse the direction of Windows 8.
1. The failure of Windows 8
For obvious reasons Windows 8 is going to be an extreme failure – those who are familiar with what Windows 8 has to offer will understand why that is so. The marketing around Windows 8 claims that the center of activities are people – not files or documents. This means that Windows 8's target audience are people who don't have to get any work done. However, Microsoft made a logic error here. Those people who only spend their time doing online-socializing, sit on Facebook all day already – and they're probably perfectly happy with it. They are not going to buy an operating system that attemps to be a social network. Furthermore the Metro UI is horrible, it looks like a cheap website. The examples of Metro start screens look as if they were websites of a tourism agency or a support website for women with mid-life crisis. It's quite likely that Microsoft itself has already realized that Windows 8 is a mistake.
2. Visual Studio 11 (2012)
Microsoft has realized that Windows 8 is a mistake and they're extremely scared that it will indeed fail. As a last resort they're trying to force developers to build Metro apps.
2.1 The measures taken by Microsoft to force developers to write Metro apps:
a) The express editions of Visual Studio will only support writing Metro apps.
b) To write desktop apps you have to pay.
c) VC++11 can't be used to target Windows XP.
d) C# 5.0 and .NET 4.5 can't be used to target Windows XP.
2.2 Why these measures are useless:
a) Any developer who writes software that actually does something useful, will write desktop apps and not Metro apps. Let's recall that the target audience of Windows 8 are people who don't do anything useful – this means that there's no reason for a Metro app to be useful.
b) Windows 8 is going to be a failure and will be used by very few people. This means that any developer who is interested in making profit won't write Metro apps because the userbase would be just too small.
c) Those who buy Visual Studio Professional or higher clearly intend to write desktop apps and not Metro apps. After all the main benefit of using Professional or higher is being able to write desktop apps.
d) Since the free Express edition of Visual Studio only supports writing Metro apps, Microsoft hopes that those developers who don't want to buy Visual Studio will start writing Metro apps. That's another big logic error made by Microsoft. To write Metro apps you need Windows 8 unless Microsoft comes up with a Metro emulator. Any developer who won't pay for Visual Studio most certainly won't pay for the useless Windows 8. This means that no one will write Metro apps.
2.3 Why no one will buy Visual Studio:
The only reason to buy Visual Studio is the benefit of being able to write desktop apps. However it's impossible to target Windows XP. Since Windows XP's market share is still over 30% it would be a big financial mistake to to not target XP. This makes the Professional and higher editions totally unusable.
The C++ crowd is extremely unhappy, but there are other compilers that are able to target Windows XP and have far better C++11 support.
The .NET crowd won't be unhappy, .NET 4.0 has enough to offer. The minimal additions in C# 5.0 and .NET 4.5 won't make anyone want to drop Windows XP.
Microsoft enetring into crazy trajectory:
Windows 8.
There is no need to create any Metro UI. All concepts from Metro like living tiles/icons, grouping tiles/icons, start screen scrolling, code contracts and others, can be implemented nicely into traditional desktop UI. their statement 'chrome takes too much space', does not make sense. When you maximize your app, then you lose only sone lines on the top. When app is in the window, chrome is useful for scaling, and still does not take too much space.
Another statement 'Metro app must be full screen, because we can terminate and hibernate other apps, to save system resources and energy' is aleso illogical. Even content-consumers need several applications running at the same time, and switch beetewn them comfortable using taskbar. Even if RAM if free from app data, still consumes energy.
MS statements about Metro are illogical from technical / usability point of view. What MS really want from Metro, is complete control over installed software, to increase their monopoly and profits.
Visual Studio 11.
There is not secret, that this VS11 release does not bring really anything new. VB, C#, NET 4.5 are very little improved over its previous versions. Very few devs will be interested in paying hundreds of dollars, just for ability co create Metro apps, at the same being blocked form using these smal improvements to create XP apps.
Dropping Silverlight from Metro, switch to HTML5.
Sliverlight is still very good for creating business apps. HTML5 is just markups for painting UI. Writing serious business logic code in JavaScript is crazy. There are dozens separate libraries like jquery that may help, but trying to integrate these dispersed incompatibile tools into sigle well designed solution, may be nightmare.
Overall, dark times are approaching, with MS new philosophy.
We still have customers using XP (and even 2000), often in embedded situations.
There is no good reason not to support these Operating systems, other than trying to force people who cannot upgrade their OS to upgrade their OS.
#fail (yet again!)
@Chris: "For obvious reasons Windows 8 is going to be an extreme failure"
Will people run out to upgrade to Windows 8? I doubt it. It will, however, ship on all new computers. This will create an installed base in the millions, even if Microsoft doesn't sell a single upgrade.
@Chris: "What MS really want from Metro, is complete control over installed software, to increase their monopoly and profits."
I agree 100% that complete control is a key objective of Metro. I'm not sure I agree on the motive. Sadly, many people are quite willing, even eager, to trade liberty for security. Apple's success proves it. Microsoft is trying to create a walled garden with Metro because that's what many customers want. There's no way they could do that with Win32.
Win RT will fail just like every other mobile plan MS has had. I just hope it does this quickly so MS will stop trying to ram it down my throut.
Ms keeps redoing the same thing in the mobile space yet they almost act supprised when it fails.
MS, please don't try and force us to jump on the sinking Win Rt ship.
Oh and it was kind of cowardly to post this announcement Friday at 1:00 am.
So there is no reason to upgrade to 8/VS11, unless you're willing to write Metro apps… Is there some kind of revolution going on inside MS? Let's force express developers to write Metro stuff, and commercial devs write win8-only desktop apps to force users to upgrade to 8. Problem, developres? 😀
Please vote for adding Windows XP support for .NET 4.5 on uservoice:
visualstudio.uservoice.com/…/2723735-make-net-4-5-work-on-any-os-that-supports-4-0
This may be a bit off topic, but it seems to be the best place to get an answer…
With Aero gone in Win8, what's going to happen with all the applications that extends the glass into the frame?
How will that look? Will they just get a nice big blob of white instead?
Very disappointed with this decision. Fingers crossed that you will see the light and allow VS11 to target XP – Win8 using the new tools (improved C++11 compliance et al.)…
Too complicated, you are not helping us with a multitude of SKUs, it's only a marketing thing and you should focus on the needs of developers.
Point in case: Express for Windows Phone AND Express C# AND Web Developer Express … a Windows Phone developer should be able to: a) create WinPhone app b) create C# libraires and c) create web app (API). Just offer Visual Studio Express as a SKU just below Visual Studio Professional.
Or better yet, make Visual Studio Profession the free SKU, you make loads of money on Team Server and on Ultimate SKUs, and giving away tools for free will add to the bottom line for Windows 8, Windows Server and Windows Phone. After all, 98% of Visual Studio developers is targeting your platform anyway…
@PleaseFixYourBugs I was trying to be positive, and posting what I hope they actually meant, to see if it would actually get a response either confirming or correcting their statement. I guess that was too much of a stretch.
No desktop support for Express editions?
EXTREMELY disappointing. I have VS 2010 Pro and was really looking forward to upgrading to the new edition, but I'll be passing on it now out of principle.
This will be the day when Microsoft officially lost its developer cred. You've abandoned us, and we won't take that lightly.
Looks like the previous post with approximately 1,000 negative comments has been completely ignored in favor of posting more unpopular announcements. Linux and Mac OSX are looking more and more attractive every day!
So you're not going to offer a better C++11 support for those developers that use the Express Editions? Seems it's time to start looking for a new IDE after all…
When my co-worker warned me against the Microsoft stack over the open source stack, he said that MS has too much power over all the technologies I use develop.
I thought then that he was just being extreme. MS would never want to harm their customers…
Well, it looks as if MS thinks they have consolidated enough and now they are going to use their stack monopoly to try to FORCE metro, Win RT and windows 8.
He seemed crazy at the time, but now I realize I should have listened a bit closer.
MS, it is not too late to be benevolent instead of tyrannical. Listen to the cries of your cowering subjects:
"Add XP support", "restore the UI to its former non-metro glory" and "don't force express developers to only create metro apps".
Please, choose the path of good before it is too late… Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your public image.
Steve Teixeira, please address the questions raised here.
Are you listening?
The most comments of any post on this blog were posted to the previous post. Yet there is not even a word about it in this post…
Please let us know if comments don't matter (and maybe even turn them off) if you are not going to respond to them.
Also, if you truly plan to leave all XP Developers with "Target" abilities (ie Visual Studio 2010) then you should mark visualstudio.uservoice.com/…/2723735-make-net-4-5-work-on-any-os-that-supports-4-0 as "Status DENIED".
That way I get my votes back and everyone knows what your plans are.
Please do this as User Voice needs to work both ways for us to think that it makes even the slightest difference it what you develop.
Microsoft, you're trying to cash in money for the ability of writing desktop apps? How are you going to attract new developers to your platform? Newcomers won't be able to learn non-Metro parts of the supported programming languages. Newcomers should also start with GUI-less apps, not Metro apps.
No one will go along with this nonsense. Windows 8 is destined to fail. In an attempt to save Windows 8 by forcing the developers to write Metro apps, you have also guaranteed that your second main product Visual Studio 11 is destined to fail.
It's obvious that this mess will result in a big financial disaster for Microsoft. I hope the shareholders will fire the ones who are responsible.
I am sorry to say that despite the features in .net 4.5 it is all pointless if it can't run on 25% – 40% of all computers that are in the world (See en.wikipedia.org/…/Usage_share_of_operating_systems for the stats)
Why do I want to make my app on a system that removes so many potential customers from my user base.
Not buying VS 11 is a net profit in 2 ways. By not having to pay to upgrade to VS 11 I save $$$, and I get to keep all those XP Customers (saving lost income).
THERE IS NO POINT IN UPGRADING WITH OUT XP SUPPORT FOR .NET 4.5!
Microsoft knows this. They are willing to accept lost sales for VS 11, angry developers, and fewer apps for .Net 4.5.
They are willing to accept all this if it gets them just a few more developers that fall into the Win RT pit.
If you are thinking of jumping on the Win RT band wagon, beware! Microsoft has a bad habit of pushing new technologies hard and then dumping them with no warning. (Windows CE, Windows Mobile, Linq To SQL, Silverlight etc).
Microsoft Visual Studio providing more reasons to pirate software everyday. I use a pirated of VS2010 because of poor pricing policy in Australia and 2011 I now suspect will be equally as bad and on top of that the express editions can no longer develop desktop programs only "metro" apps.
>>>/apple/
>>>/google/
Repent, the end is nigh!
VS Express 2010 is the last free version for Gadgeteer and .NETMF people?
No desktop development makes the Express editions completely worthless.
And having to chose between XP support *or* new features from C++11 or C#5/.NET 4.5 when half the planet still uses XP means we just won't be able to use the new features, so there's no reason to buy the new version.
All editions of VS 2010 (including Express) are a better choice.
generally, I like the functionality provided by VS11, however, the UI is utterly inefficient to me. I tried several time to find the comment block button, and still couldn't find after 30 mins. what's worse is that all the files/button is marked as single color, which is very hard to discern what's important and what's not!
please, please make the UI of VS more recognizable!
What happened to all of the rah rah about native developers not sitting at the back of the bus any longer?
It seems like Microsoft is using developers to enforce some sort of a mandatory upgrade path for XP users.
What I really resent is that this latest attempt at manipulation doesn't seem based upon a technical reason. Instead it really looks like this is a business decision to force users to upgrade by proxying developers as their "stick". I've read that several people were able to hack around this nonsense without access to the source code, so I'm pretty sure that Microsoft could provide a version of VS 11 with MFC and a CRT that all "magically" works on XP without requiring cockamamie multi-targeting.
I find the noncommital tone in "we are evaluating options" offensive and weasel-like. I can't begin to understand the foolish decision to force the XP issue onto our plate followed by misrepresenting the tradeoffs involved in multi-targeting. Give us something definitive like what exactly will be in the RTM and when. Don't play word games with us, it's insulting. Better yet, release the damn thing without such a ridiculous restriction.
There are serveral reasons why the proposed workaround of multi-targeting that makes it unfit for consideration:
AFAIK, multi-targeting is effectively compiling with VS2010 (just like previous versions of multi-targeting). That means I won't get to use or benefit from any of the C++ compiler improvements in VS11. So why would any C++ developer pay for such an upgrade?
I still have to have a whole other copy of VS2010 installed to use it? Why not just keep my existing copy and not waste money on something that doesn't add any value to my workflow?
You have a shiny new UI and a bunch of .NET stuff you'd like to sell me? In case you don't know me, I'm one of those C++ devs that has been writing code for Windows since it was a 16 bit non-preemptive OS. I'm also the same dev who has been learning and using the C++11 features avidly. Until recently, I was proud to talk about how compliant the VS compiler has been since VS2010 SP1. I don't really need a new UI and I don't care about improvements to .NET. I'm not alone either.
Who exactly is your target market that you're mentioning C++ too? It sure isn't going to be the C++ developers like me that are maintaining code that is over a decade old and still in use by many loyal, paying customers – users that also remember your operating systems when it used to be installed via floppies. Yeah, those customers will totally understand me telling them they need to upgrade their computers to run a new OS just to run my software. Thanks a lot guys.
One of the reasons Microsoft is a dominant force because it had a strategy of trying to make developers happy. It seems like you have forgotten where you came from.
I agree completely with tfiner, and couldn't have said it better. Come on Microsoft! This is ridiculous.
Looks like the post has silently been updated.
No more
"Visual Studio 11 Express for Windows 8 provides tools for Metro style app development. To create desktop apps, you need to use Visual Studio 11 Professional, or higher. In addition, Visual Studio 2010 Express products – Visual Basic 2010 Express, Visual C++ 2010 Express, and Visual C# 2010 Express – will remain available for free download."
but
"If you would like to use a language specific Express edition (C# Express, Visual Basic Express, or C++ Express) without specialized tooling for the latest platforms, you can use the Visual Studio 2010 Express editions, which will continue to be available as free downloads."
Message is actually the same, words are less direct.
I can't understand why you do not plan to release an Express version that is able to build desktop apps. That sounds crazy to me. All the open source developers that enjoy building apps for Windows won't magically start creating metro application because your VS11 Express can't build desktop ones.
What will happen is that people will continue to use 2010 for the eternity, and won't get the benefits of the new version. Sounds like a terrible idea to me, you're doing it wrong (again) with the Windows 8 stuff. Developers used to like your products because the development experience used to be great with Windows. But here you're just punching developers in the face.
C'mon, release an Express version of VS11 that only targets desktop app.
One for Metro, one for Windows Phone, one for the web, one for Azure, one for Desktop. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Funny, editing this blog post was useless. It's all in the comments already.
Here's another blog post that reflects how people feel about Windows 8 and Metro, 90% of the comments are negative. blogs.msdn.com/…/creating-the-windows-8-user-experience.aspx
It gets even worse. In another vcblog post a Microsoft employee mentions this: "It is also correct that the Windows 8 SDK does not include compilers.".
There we go. The only way to write a desktop app is to buy a Professional+ edition. You can't even build desktop apps on the command line without having to pay.
+1 for tfiner. Microsoft, there is still time to right the wrong. Although I must admit that I am not very hopeful due to the sh*t that has been poured on us lately.
Express edition only for metro apps? This is so wrong…
4 days have passed and there is still no clarification that the whole "no VS Express for the desktop" was just a bad joke?
You are aware that dropping express edition for the desktop would not drive devs to develop metro style apps aren't you? Let alone that you expect people using Express to be the driving force for Metro-style apps then you have already failed. BTW how does one teach C# now? Instead of console "Hello World" app he makes Metro-style C# app?
Here we go again.
After Microsoft abruptly and without warning abandoned the .NET Compact Framework and Smart Device Extensions in Visual Studio 2010 (I found this out when the project *refused to open and compile*), I had the choice of either keeping Visual Studio 2008 around on my machine forever or rewriting my app, an inventory control/order picking app for a wireless scanning device. I saw the writing on the wall and realized that one day the patches for 2008 would become unstuck, so I spent a few weeks of my own time replacing it with a telnet application, the only other least common denominator.
Telnet. A protocol that predates my birth. So it has come to this.
Mix this in with some LINQ to SQL. Add WPF. Remember Composite Application Block? Enterprise Library? Oh yeah, that Workflow rewrite. Add Silverlight. Add rewriting IIS 6 installers to work on IIS 7. Now toss in the abandonment of .NET 4.5 on Server 2K3.
Why should I write Metro apps? I no longer trust you. The commitment to backwards compatibility that made you famous is gone. "Support" as in "yeah, the old one still works" without active, continued development isn't really much support at all; it is abandonment.
If I wanted my development platform to be constantly burning, abandoned and unsupported after just a few years, then I would use Apple products because at least with them I would expect it, I would know what I am getting myself into. But that is not why I have paid for and used Microsoft tools for a decade.
If you want to beat the iPad, go ahead. Metro yourself till you're blue in the face. But don't make me part of this fight. I now feel like I spend more time chasing versions and upgrades and backports, not because the shiny new thing is better, but simply because the shiny new thing is different and my old tools for my old things could stop working any day now. That's not delivering value to the business where I work.
– Nicholas Piasecki, a disillusioned Microsoft developer
So .NET 4.5 won't work on XP or 2003, but because it's an "in-place upgrade", we're not going to get a 4.0 service pack for these systems.
That means that critical bugs in the framework will never be fixed – eg: connect.microsoft.com/…/wpf-unable-to-add-items-to-an-empty-grouped-and-sorted-collectionview
Is Microsoft seriously trying to kill off its developer community??! >:(
Microsoft doesn't seem realize that such agressiveness and treating the customers/developers as enemies is only going to drag the company down into dirt.
I'm pleased to see that Visual Studio is being prepared for Win8 and WP8 launch.I also like that Windows 7 will be supported as well. I hope it will be also available on DreamSpark.
There's a uservoice for Desktop in C++ Express 11 – please vote
visualstudio.uservoice.com/…/2645679-visual-studio-11-express-on-windows-7-and-the-abil
The more I hear, the less interested I am in upgrading.
First there is the horrible new UI, that is beyond ugly, and a major step backwards in usability.
Now you're screwing over desktop developers.
These are some really horrible decisions, spitting in the faces of your customers. You realize that, right?
The new wording (leaving out mentioning of desktop requiring Professional) is cryptic and meaningless. All it's saying is that there is no specialized tooling (e.g. Metro) in VC10 which we all know already. It doesn't say anything about what the new tools will or will not include. Why replace this with wording that doesn't mean anything at all.
Why not just remove the text entirely, or leave it in if it's really true. Does removing the meaningful text indicate some sort of reversal, or reconsideration? Why communicate all these tidbits in the form of PR-like news releases, and then let the community speculate on what it all means without any clarification?
There is no reason for me to upgrade the express edition to 11. What am I going to use metro style apps for anyway. I guess I will be using Sharp Develop which is where I started before using the express editions.
People, please let Stephen Teixeira know what you think: stevetei@microsoft.com
No, I don't suggest emailing Microsoft employees directly – these are very busy people, and any rudeness/rants will just be ignored. I would suggest using uservoice/connect/vcblog comments, etc.
I installed Windows 8 Customer Preview in a virtual machine. This crap is just unusable. The metro part is so damn painful to use. The desktop is metro frames around traditional colorful 3D icons. Looks so damn bad. Right now I'm writing this post using the metro IE – horrible. Why would anyone want to write apps for this horrible framework or even use these apps. sadkjbkfjsdfasdjfasdfadsgsdgadsgdfgadfgadfgdf ALL CAPS HOLY FFKKKKK
I fully agree with what Nicholas Piasecki posted.
I don't trust Microsoft's new technologies anymore.
There is opportunity costs to learning a new technology or API. With the time spent learning I could be working and making $$$. Or I could be getting better at other established technologies or APIs.
So learning a new system is an investment. The return on investment is when I get to use it on a job. (I get to make money with it.)
I don't care how much you try to ram Win RT and Metro down my throat. I will not be moving to a system that is only supported on an unreleased Operating System.
Especially when I see how willing you are to leave behind operating systems that have SIGNIFICANT usage in the market place.
When you move a technology or API off active development then very few companies want to start new projects using that technology. That makes my "investment" in that technology useless. In essence it is like you bankrupt that tech (as far as my investment is concerned).
For example, I was a smart device (Windows Mobile) developer. When you left that behind, all my investment in that tech was lost.
I also went to the trouble of learning the ins and outs of Linq-to-SQL. That knowledge is also useless.
Happily I was able to avoid learning much Silverlight. But I am a WPF Developer now and I am worried about my skills being rendered useless there.
If I was investing money in companies, I would be leery of an owner that had previously bankrupted and caused me to loose money. If the owner had done it 3-4 times…
Well, I stop investing.
The decision to make VS Express 2011 only support Metro-apps is extremely disappointing and certainly doesn't make me want to buy the Professional edition. It doesn't even seem too likely I will be upgrading to Windows 8 in any case, there doesn't seem to be any point.
I agree with many of these posts. As about the only professor at our large university pushing some experience with Microsoft and Visual Studio I am getting weary of trying to keep up with the latest. Particularly, when the latest does not seem to be any better, just different and the fad of the day. I for one have never (absolutely never) cared about the "user experience" either as a developer or a user. Windows XP look and feel was just fine.
I guess I am going to have to brush up on my Makefiles for C++ and Eclipse for Java.
Developing on Microsoft OS since MS-DOS 3.3, still using VS 2008 and approved strategic shift to Java+Linux in our company. It's bad enough Microsoft charges so much for server OS, but given that it seems majority of time now invested into making GUI grey and dull I have no confidence in investing our time and money into new fud that has no chance of success.
Somebody at Microsoft must have forgotten that not only people actually pay money for VS, but far more importantly invest time and money to create software for your platform that kept you in business in the last 30 years.
Will Microsoft still be here in 10 years? No, because those who won't switch to Mac/Linux will still be using Windows 7.
VS 2011 is going to be a biggest failure with dows 8. You can't force developers to code in Metro. Metro sucks.
Let me share a secret with you, Microsoft: We Windows developers are the ones that supposedly will write Metro apps. You are f**king us so hard right now that many will be pissed at you and Metro. You don't want that.
MS this is really disappointing about the express editions. I wish you knew how many students (without access to academic MSDN packages) especially in high schools use the vs express editions to learn how to program. Now you have just relegated them to just web and Metro.
Even though I think Metro is brilliant on my Windows Phone, I think it is still not proper on a mouse & keyboard desktop (even with touch) so forcing kiddies and older folks new to .net programming to only use metro on the free express editions is so wrong in so many ways. Sure one can use VS 2010 express editions but given how you silently gave Silverlight (and other nice ms techs) the boot we might just wake up on day and be unable to get a registration code for the express editions but instead get a nice link to buy VS11 Pro.
I was so happy with VS11 before when I saw TFS Express now I can see there is a price for everything. It's so absurd that you are connecting the express editions to Windows 8, have more faith in you own OS and maybe we devs can follow but forcing this down our throats is not right. If I want to work in a walled garden I will go to Apple.
As much as you want to kill XP the fact is that so many businesses still use it and have lots of old apps connected to it. All you have just managed to do is tell devs working on XP dependent apps that they should just ignore VS11 and stick to VS 2010 for the foreseeable future. I’m not working on anything XP related but I can imagine MS would want me to go in front of a client with XP and tell them ‘sorry my shiny new dev tools don’t like windows XP so upgrade now or I won’t work for you’ nope not going to happen. For the folks in an XP environment I feel for you.
PS: I pray the guy who made this decision doesn’t have his sights on SQL Express or MS Expression or we might end up with SQL Express CALs and MS ‘Expression Metro’.
So if I need to support XP for legacy customers, I will need VS2010 Pro and have no reason for VS11? MS did something similar for embedded where you require VS2005/2008 professional to develop for WinMobile 6, but you can no longer buy licences for these compilers. Guess we are meant to upgrade the device so can use VS2010 to develop, but with WinMobile running on an industrial device this just isnt possible. I dont have a problem with phasing out old stuff, but business need to keep running stuff for years in industrial environments. Trying to juggle different compilers on same code base is not fun.
Our solution for WinMobile problem was to develop for iPad/browser and give them to customers, not having XP in VS2011 will pretty much start this trend for our Desktop apps too
It is still BUTTUGLY not to mention less usable than 2010, add to all that increased prices, Metro forced down our throats etc etc etc.
Shame on you microsoft. You used to be with it, not any more. I guess balmer will come prancing onto the stage shouting Dollarbills, Dollarbills Dollarbills.
Why so may BAD BAD decisions at the same time at Microsoft? Is there someone deliberately sabotaging the company?
Not supporting desktop in Express Editions and not supporting .NET 4.5 on XP are horrible decisions. And they were obviously not made because of technical reasons, both would very well be possible without problems. This was only decided to push XP out of market even before official end of support, and to push Metro into market – on the backs of developers. We will now now seem to be the ones responsible for not supporting XP anymore or not making a desktop version of our applications, while in reality Microsoft is responsible for that by killing tool support.
Very very bad and disappointing stuff!
When VS11 Developer Preview was released, in terms of C++11 conformance Clang was pretty much the same as VS11. As of now Clang left even GCC behind and it seems to have implemented ~95% of C++11.
What's going on?
a) Is Microsoft moving extremly slow with improving the compiler?
b) Does Clang have a huge developer base?
If VS11 was a good IDE, it wouldn't be a big problem that there is no usable Express Edition. But because it actually is no good IDE (for native developers; poor C++11 compiler, no XP support, terrible UI), you will probably loose 95% of the Express users and a lot of users of the other editions (which are more important for you, because this users pay for it).
You could provide a good IDE. Then you would have more paying customers.
Or provide a cheap IDE. Then you would have more users (-> more software running on Windows).
Or provide a good _and_ cheap IDE. Then you'll have more paying customers _and_ a lot of happy users. Happy users would btw. mean less negative feedback in your blogs. Maybe you have noticed, that feedback was very good and friendly when you published the first information about new VS (About performance. About your first changes to UI. About C++11). But when you started to cripple the IDE (UI, Express Edition, XP), it turned into negative.
should be last VS when this type of c*ap keep coming from VS team. VS team is sold to windows team. Eclipse is much better so the Java. Not sure who had a crap idea to put Lego(I mean metro) on desktop.
The rating of this blog entry stands for itself. This is the worst news you ever published in a long time. Please think of if you really want this. Scaring off your developers is the worst thing you can do, since the amount of SW being developed solely for the Windows platform has been your biggest benefit – at least until now.
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What a terrible decision.
VS Express is currently used in many academic institutions to teach programming. This mainly involves developing desktop applications, often without any type of GUI.
If VS Express 11 is not able to develop for the desktop these institutions will logically look for an alternative that is. Students will learn to program in Java and non-MS C++ and the number of developers producing software for Windows will dramatically reduce.
This will have a massive negative effect on Microsoft's bottom-line in future years. Very short-sighted.
Please have a standard edition so that people can install ReSharper to overcome the massive coding shortcomings of Visual Studio and do it for less than £100. Having me pay hundreds of pounds for an IDE which isn't very good at coding and then requires that I spend even more money buying ReSharper just pushes me away from using .Net technologies for home projects. Perhaps a JetBrains 'Personal' license would be a good idea (which can be used for commercial work).
I can only explain this disaster with MS keeping its focus completely on the consumer market as far as Win8 and VS11 is concerned – pushing Metro/Tablet by all means.
Not too smart in my eyes – i guess the majority of devs seems left behind dissapointed as you can read here. If you keep moving this road, your dev community will soon become as fragmented as Andriod market. Do you really want that?
I would suggest to provide all versions of VS for free. This would really strengthen your OS ecosystem (longterm). Then make money with TFS, marketplace and OS. Never understood what keeps you from doing this.
Just received confirmation that *NONE* of the bugs in .NET 4.0 will be fixed for XP or 2003:
"The Connect site is for impacting the direction of future releases of Microsoft products. … Hotfix or service pack requests for released products are handled through Microsoft Support."
connect.microsoft.com/…/wpf-unable-to-add-items-to-an-empty-grouped-and-sorted-collectionview
So now we are forced to drop support for XP/2003 a full two years before Microsoft does, or drop .NET completely.
Also, the Connect site, which used to be about reporting bugs and getting them fixed, is now only used to affect future versions. Presumably this means the whole idea of "service packs" is being dropped as well.
Someone please tell me that .NET hasn't been a massive ten-year joke? >:(
@Richard Deeming:
> Someone please tell me that .NET hasn't been a massive ten-year joke?
With regret, it seems that .NET was a joke indeed. The next joke is C++/CX. I am not touching it with a ten-feet pole.
Forcing developers to write Metro apps is a desperate attempt to save Windows 8 and Metro. Microsoft hopes that those who are not comfortable with paying for VS will use the Express edition and write Metro apps. It won't turn out like this though. To write Metro apps your development environment has to be in Windows 8. No sane person will use Windows 8 as a PC OS, let alone a development OS.
Microsoft itself uses the synonym "tablet app" for "Metro app" – meaning Windows 8 is just a tablet OS. They also expect you to write those tablet apps while being inside that tablet OS which is unsuitable for productive tasks. There's a reason why writing Android and iOS apps doesn't have to be done while being inside Android or iOS.
Whoever at Microsoft came up with the "let's force developers to write Metro apps" plan is an idiot. This plan is evil but extremely flawed.
In addition:
Microsoft, you should hire me as your business consultant. I'm willing to design sophisticated business plans that are evil but highly profitable. Your current plans are evil but will also result in a big financial loss.
No .Net 4.5 support is such a big pain for developers and business because there will be no more will to migrate to new framework.
Same things recently happened with codeplex.com
Everyone thinks that Microsoft does not get how damaging not having XP support is.
But they do get it. They want the damage. They want .NET to die out as a client side tool. They are burning their bridges behind them.
It is Win RT or bust.
Take a look a Somasegar's blog. You will find good stuff about .Net in reference to the Server side of things. But only token comments relating to the Client side of things.
They WANT .net to die on the client side. They WANT all .net client side developers to be forced to code Win RT. (Hence the limitation on the Express version of Visual Studio.)
They are doubling and tripling down on Win RT.
Which will make it all the sadder if it dies. (which, considering the track record that MS has with mobile technologies, is not a good prognosis.)
The key here is that Microsoft knows the damage and pain they are causing their developers. They are conscripting us .net developers as solders in their war.
Those of us who cannot or will not jump on the Win RT bandwagon, well we are acceptable losses in the war against Apple and Google.
I am one of these. At my company, I have NO say in the issue of moving away from Windows XP. Much less on moving to Windows 8.
Microsoft sees me as an acceptable casualty of war.
In fact, I am a desirable casualty. Because if I am not pushing forward the Win RT/Windows 8 bandwagon, then I am detracting from it by wanting support for other features.
If you are not with them you are against them.
This is absolutely unfair to any independent developers by excluding non-Metro style apps and programs out of the Visual Studio 11 Express Studio suite.
It is both dirty, underhanded and greedy of you Microsoft!
You know, one of the biggest disappointments of all of these recent announcements, aside from the fact that they made them, is that there has been no response from anyone on the negative comments and the impacts that these changes and announcements will have on Microsoft's developer and user community. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. You must realize that prior OS support is an imperative. Most of use in the business development community can't force our companies to upgrade to a completely foreign interface paradigm as well as being an expensive upgrade, what with hardware and software upgrades required. Most our users are and will continue to use XP and 2003 for a long time. The expense alone would prevent the upgrades from happening. Now, your essentially telling us that we're screwed. You need to respond to some of these criticisms now, not wait until after the damage is done to show that you care…
I'm just gonna guess that these torrents will get seeded…
This is the most petty of decisions.
So what I'm hearing is Express is crippled? I guess we'll just stay on Win7 like the rest of the world…
Man, I'm glad I switched to open source! The sooner Windows 8 fails, the better off we are.
Would love to see a reduction in the "Screw Australia Tax" we literally pay twice as much as the US (that's of course taking exchange rates into account, but it's pretty much at parity)
Here's what the "Screw Australia Tax" looks like… http://twitpic.com/7s6lax
arstechnica.com/…/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8 I think this covers it
Microsoft,
I wasn't sure if to post here or to the previous blog. As my post isn't about VS styling despite many references to it, I decided to post here.
I wont be using VS11. Reading the CAPS and color issues on the previous blog has been mundane but it has been the poor handling of the feedback to that which has really driven me to write because it has highlighted that again Microsoft is still fighting its customers and is still exhibiting its hallmark traits of belligerence, wrong priorities, and slow/poor customer service, and that Microsofts development teams are out of control.
I have wasted significant time in justifying my views below, but incase you never get that far, here's the short version:
1. Microsoft has become belligerent, slow, and out of touch.
2. The company has become uncompetitive to the point of being anti-competitive.
3. The development teams are out of control.
1. What specifically are you and Microsoft doing to improve the situation on each of the points above?
2. When will these changes happen?
3. What has been the response to @competitives post on the previous blog? They obviously felt the same way.
So now my justfication:
Re: Belligernce: After 900+ of the most umistakable, simplistic, but specific comments, i.e. "get rid of the CAPS" – how, AFTER that, did Microsoft see fit to retain them in the next release? Persisting with CAPS anywhere – let alone in the main menu – after such overwhelming and unambiguous feedback, is an inflammatory insult to already clearly expressed customer views. Why did that happen? Why is Microsoft so belligerent in understanding the feedback it solicits? Does Microsoft see that its reputation is being shreaded by this behaviour? With all the work going on, customers are not getting happier. It's because your work doesn't represent what they want.
Re: Slow and out of touch: The time taken to respond with *commitment* and *clarity* to the CAPS issue is the same as how Microsoft responds to everything. It continually releases new versions of products that leave so many previously identified issues unaddressed for so long. It's not resources, it's communication, because often the most egregious issues are often the ones easiest to fix (like this CAPS issue). Microsoft takes so long that customers fester. Microsoft has an inability to make *timely*. *clear* amd *commited* responses to anything, even a CAPS menu. Why?
That case in point (pun): You STILL have not made a commited response to removing CAPS from the menu though you can't surely still be thinking of leaving CAPS in after 1800+ comments have come in opposing it? So what are you waiting for? Isn't it just incompetence and bad PR to wait when it incites so much anger?
I accept difficult things take time, like Windows 8, and that some things like that are better to not try to predict – it's ready when it's ready. But that can't be a policy on everything! But thats how Microsoft works. How do your customers plan their future or release dates with their customers if you guys never commit to anything and never give dates for anything yourself? Not everyone has the luxury of open ended development as you seem to. We expect quick, specific, commited responses, ideally with dates! If that's never possible because everything is tangled up, that is your problem. untangle it!
Out of control devlopment: It's a paradox that Microsoft is so slow to fix and commit to fixes for things but yet is so fast to embark on new projects. This would be great except Microsoft continually works on things we DON'T want and it often comes at the expense or regression of work we DO want! The VS.NEXT
icon/color styling issue is a classic example. Who asked for it? Did you ask us? Why not? Was it a priority, let alone even a wish, of customers? No.
I'd rather have all VS windows re-sizable, modeless and minimizable (apparenlty so would @jalf) in preference to this unwanted icon color reskin. Don't tell me it's a different feature crew, because I'd rather you taught them how to do what I want than waste their time on something I positively don't want. Especially if it's going to regress it!! So how do projects like these get authorised when nobody ever asked for them? Where is the mandate? Where is the roadmap or heads up or even a sketch? Is that customer focused? This development style makes people constantly rage at Microsoft – and leave!
This stuff has all been said before. Evidence is riddled throughout these blogs that Microsoft continues to antagonise its customers by constantly soliciting feedback that it rarely actions in a timely, or sensitive manner. Instead, it routinely leaves customers frothing with anxiety about decisions it could make sooner but chooses to make or announce later, if at all. When announcements do come, they are lacking in substance and *commitment*, worse still, they are dressed up with fluffy irritating language like ENERGY that serves only to minimize peoples feelings, oh sorry, I should have said dents their passion…
I hope it doesn't dent your passion to ask (again) what is wrong with operating like this:
A. Blog ideas and request priorities.
B. Adjust priorities to feedback and submit understandings.
C. Do work, blog progress.
D. Repeat.
Of course, to argue what you are doing wrong, people need an example and to know what others would be done instead. OK, lets take the recent CAPS debacle
as example:
1. I would never have even introduced CAPS in the first place!
2. I would sought Customers priorities FIRST, about the VS icon/coloring because I don't see nor hear others complaining about VS2010s style, just its performance.
3. Had I found myself forced to change the style, because management forced it or customers requested it, perhaps wrongly ( know it happens), I would have issued mock ups of the design *first* and solicited feed back on that. I guarantee the CAPS idea would have died a death right then.
4. I would have blogged feedback at a speed commensurate to the intensity of the response to it, so customers don't fester in the dark and would have sought to enshrine that policy in other teams too.
5. Given the feedback from the previous blog, I guarantee after the *first* 200 responses had been read, I would have blogged immediately that:
* It looks like ALL CAPS should be removed, 100%.
* That I see minimum support for the new grey color/icon styling.
* That VS2010s styling is not just prefered over the new style, but it is positively adored in preference.
* Due to that, I would have blogged that the icon/color and styling would *very likely* be reverted wholesale to something very closer to VS2010.
* I would have said support for the new Search features is good, but the Chrome and space feedback though positive, suggests the new style is too bold.
* In response I would started research to keep some of the new style space gains but harmonise VS.NEXT more in favour of VS2010's chrome.
* I would have closely monitored responses and adjusted my plan accordingly where possible.
6. By the next release, assuming the feedback hadn't undermined my understandings, I would have ensured:
* CAPS would be 100% gone.
* As much of the new icon/color style would be reverted back to the VS2010 look as time allowed, but the clutter/icon reductions etc. would be kept.
* Space changes would be kept but more of VS2010s elegant chrome design would be present than the first release.
* The new Search integration changes would be kept, mostly as originally defined.
* The new style Chrome hack would NOT have happened as nobody asked for it and it's too drastic without achieving enough result for the weird look it brings. It is also late in the development cycle for random acts like that.
* Finally, though not my normal preference, IF (and only if) it were easy, and since the new color/icon work was already done, I would have offered both, with VS2010 styling being the default. I would use telemetry to decide later which had won out.
In contrast, Microsoft has:
* Retained CAPS in the second release, defying 900+ comments against it.
* Let 1000+ more comments fester on, all opposing CAPS, yet still made no *commitment* about if CAPS is in or out, despite it being obvious.
* Embarked on a last minute coloring exercise that has no relation to VS2010 despite customers stating that is their prefered benchmark!
* Restored insufficient color compared to VS2010.
* Added extra color at random, like in the build process where it never existed previously leaving customers with no sense where this is going, because it is not being done in relation to their benchmark.
* This is exemplified further by the extensive chrome hack that *no-one* requested and that does not provide enough utility for the weird look it invites.
* Made only small adjustments to the current colour with no commitment to provide the VS2010 style despite it being customers preference and benchmark.
* Adopted no clear blogging policy. Certainly speed is still not commesurate with feedback. Microsoft just leaves customers festering over what decisions it has or hasn't made.
Bottom line:
These massive screw ups supply ENGERY to MS haters (as does that kind of language). They lend weight to the idea that you guys and gals are stuck in some kind of "focus" group hell; trapped in a consensus team cuddle with no Steve Jobs figure to drag you out of it or set you useful goals; and that there are no hard core developers present in these hug fests, just fluff bunnies and "focus" users? If this is not true, how else did these design changes, for example, ever get past MS's own internal developers? Did real users like that even get to see the first release or even early sketches? It's not a rhetorical question. I honestly can't believe it got past them?
What needs to be addressed more than CAPS on a menu is get your priorities straight and your commication quick and effective and listen to your customers.
Ask what THEY want then do it. Microsofts communication style is as shallow as it is glacial. Talk about energy! No, please don't.
I conclude that some teams at MS are lost and have the wrong management or leadership. How else could this madness continue? The CAPS menu is not the problem. The problem is that it takes takes 900+ complaints + 1000 more of the most focused, banal criticism ever, to effect even the simplest change in a timely manner and even then no "CAPS menu is gone" tweet exists as commitment of it. Somebody really should be asking (and @competitive is) , what have you done to your competitive edge?
So:
1. Stop going off on tangents making changes of a magnitude to things NOBODY is asking for or considers broken.
2. Start getting your priorities right. How? Do what customers ARE asking and ASK THEM FIRST. Then fix what THEY consider broken first.
3. Stop this anti competitive behaviour of walled gardens and random invention and forcing customers down paths they don't like.
4. Fix XP support and give dates, make VS.NEXT Express support Windows 7 desktop apps and stop the store pretentions and fix the windows 8 desktop.
5. Respond quicker, and lose the fluffy language that minimizes customers feelings. Twittering "Goodbye CAPS, back to the future VS2010 color!" is not hard and requires no ENERGY.
5. Realise these mistakes make the work you do irrelevant because its losing you customers regardless and providing haters with energy instead.
6. Start getting competitive and realise customers have to be at the finish line with you and *like you and your brand*. It's not good enough to get there
eventually.
Otherwise, when the dust settles, the CAPS is gone, and the color returned, Microsoft still wont have the respect of the community that built it. It will have driven developers, developers, developers into the arms of some seriously good competition.
For the first time ever, I am building up my experience in non Microsoft development tools, and looking forward to it rather than be pushed around by you guys.
I am no longer waiting for VS11, nor expecting you to change.
Whatever happened to the responses I received on previous blog entries from MS staff about the loss of VS2010 Standard Edition as cheaper way of upgrading from 2008. We hear you they said. Now it is VS2010 Pro or nothing for desktop development. Clearly you weren't listening.
Those Microsoft employees who are responsible for this failure, you'll be fired pretty soon. There's no way shareholders will let you stay. Your current plans will only generate financial loss.
Myself and my company use VS 2010 ultimate, it's great and we will use VS 11 Ultimate. But now we can't use the .Net 4.5 Framework.
Why?
Because our customers who make plugins for our products will not be able to use 4.5.
I see this as a terrible solution to whatever you guys were trying to achieve. You have lost a lot of my respect.
Nice. Get me all excited about 4.5 and then take it all away from me, classy stuff.
Very, very, disheartened by this.
I really don't see what all this fuss is about in the comments.
I already have got a side by side installation of Visual Studio 2008 and 2010, so that I can go on developing for our Windows CE barcode scanners with the Compact Framework. How does it matter to have three versions of Visual Studio installed on the same machine?
And who wants Visual Studio 11 anyway? It's ugly, the icons are confusing and it doesn't support Windows XP.
My desktop application is a mixture between 90% Windows Forms and 10% WPF – so it's already 90% for the garbage bin. If Microsoft goes full metro and abandons the desktop then it's 100% for the garbage bin. No big difference.
But I'm really glad that I didn't go for Silverlight, though.
So much for sarcasm.
Bottom line: Microsoft, I don't trust you anymore!
I can't list all the technologies you first hyped and then abandoned. I will stay with Windows 7, Visual Studio 2008/2010, TFS 2008 and SQL Server 2005. It's not only that updating to a new version isn't worth the money and trouble, it destroys the work I have already done.
Sorry Microsoft this is a bad way! We are not upgrade to Windows 8 and we searching for alternates (Apple, Linux, BSD). Windows 8 and VS2012 Express is a no way! Thank you Microsoft for you bad way we don't trust you to create good products! Bye Bye Windows 8, Metro and Microsoft! In the future we only work with Apple Mac OS X and Apple IPad the best products on the planet! BYE MICROSOFT FOR EVER!
You have to be kidding me with the removal of functionality in Express edition. It's true the hobbyist programmers won't pay you for a free IDE, but they surely can make you a very bad reputation.
I was devoted to Windows since my first Win 98 copy, but after Metro and this information I'm just sick of how you pulled that off.
Threatening is pointless, so I won't, but remember you disappointed a lot of people and kittens with this post. And know that it's hard to restore people's trust in you.
Sry for the question, but it is possible to write desktop apps with the Express edition for Windows 8?
@theSoenke
With Visual Studio Express 2010 and .NET Framework 4.0: yes
With Visual Studio 11 Express and .NET Framework 4.5: no
"Mirosoft has failed so many times in the mobile space. Windows CE, Windows Mobile (both only failed on the consumer side of things), windows phone 7 are just the big ones. "
I don't think selling tens of millions is failing, unless one counts the IPhone as a failure until later models were released (and MS dominate on mobile netbooks), though yes it's obviously not the massive share they are accustomed to on general purpose computers.
"MS has realized that they can't really compete with Apple's integrated OS and hardware. So the are doing the next best thing (in their minds), that is make all developers almost have to use Metro and Win RT. "
I don't think Apple with integrated OS and hardware is an issue – Android is by far the biggest platform, and before that (until 2011) it was Symbian. (Not to mention that MS do just fine against OS X.)
Though yes, I do agree this seems like a move to push more into the phablet space. Personally I think a consistent platform from mobile to laptops/desktops would be great, but this move with Express only supporting Metro is indeed poor.
"Bye Bye Windows 8, Metro and Microsoft! In the future we only work with Apple Mac OS X and Apple IPad the best products on the planet! BYE MICROSOFT FOR EVER!"
If you're happy with writing for Ipad, then what's wrong with Metro? Indeed, it's the endless hype for the Ipad that has led to MS making decisions like this.
In all sincerity, this move hurts me. I really genuinely feel betrayed.
When i was in college, C# showed me that there were languages that were designed well and that designing and writing software could be fun. I have defended Microsoft's for years because I loved .NET. When my friends ask me how to start programming, I point them straight to VS C# express. It is ONLY because of Visual Studio Express that I could continue to develop as a hobby when I had to leave college for financial reasons. I never stopped programming during those 3 years that I worked in tech support or as a janitor and could not afford to pay for a copy of VS. But just 2 weeks ago because I had been able to continue writing code and designing programs myself and still afford to make rent, I was awarded my first real position as a C# developer that quite literally pays me 5.5x my previous job's salary. All because of free tools.
2 years ago I was trying to play a old game with a friend. We both had a copy of the ISO for it but when i tried to install it i found mine was corrupted. I opened up VS and wrote a little program that hashed the ISO file in 256K blocks, then compared the hash data files and then deployed a binary patch to correct the corrupted segments. I emailed the tiny program to my friend and after 2 more brief emails I had a 1.5MB binary patch that I repaired my copy of the ISO with. I wish I could tell you how proud I was when the game installed after my program fixed it. It was the first thing i wrote that was really useful. With what you have done, you simply cannot do that any more. Metro apps may only be run on Windows 8 machines and only installed from the app store. My little 300 line program wouldn't pass the app verifier and even if it did I would have had to create a presentation for a command line app. It wasn't much, but it worked and damnit it was mine.
Don't you see what you have done? You have killed free development on windows and you have taken away any chance of of some kid doing what I have done. At least with Microsoft tools anyway. Your free tools gave me my career. Is that such a bad thing that it must be done away with?
A slightly ambiguous statement in the sense it doesn't deny anything, but I am concerned developers won't be able to build non Metro programs without a paid for editor.
I, personally, have my MSDN paid for by work, and that will continue, but I think one of Windows great strengths is all the hobby programming that can go around along side the pro work, or just folks that are, say, Linux devs can grab VS and see what they've been missing.
I would now worry that as that's not an option we (the Windows community) will loose many talented developers – they may as well go build their hobby program for Linux now (and run it on Pi!).
@mark
> If you're happy with writing for Ipad, then what's wrong with Metro?
Proven vs unproven, no? Both iOS and Android are popular today, Metro isn't. Both iOS and Android are going to be popular tomorrow, Metro might be popular or it might not. Microsoft has a history of losing terribly in everything outside the traditional PC market. They can easily lose with Metro.
So, even if you are going to buy into this whole "computers are not important anymore" business (which I personally find idiotic), why develop for Metro when you can develop for iOS and Android?
Microsoft dig their own grave with Windows 8…
@Glen – They thing is that they just about your developer demographic any more. And they can't find a way to communicate with the demographic that they do care about.
Let me explain:
Somasegar has mentioned it many times. They are creating Visual Studio for the masses now. They are not interested in the Enterprise Developer any more. (Check this blog post for details: blogs.msdn.com/…/the-road-to-visual-studio-11-beta-and-net-4-5-beta.aspx)
(Hence the Metro and WinRT focus. Neither of those are Enterprise friendly APIs.)
Somasegar says that they used to code for the "10 million professional developers". Now they create Visual Studio for 100 million non-enterprise developers. What is 2K negative comments compared to those numbers? They could have 10,000 negative comments and they JUST DON'T CARE.
Why?
Non-enterprise developers are more casual. They don't check blogs (or comment) and they don't give much feedback. So any comments on blog posts come from the minority of their user base.
So they have decided to just develop whatever they think this new demographic wants and ignore their previously "core" user base.
As much as I hate it, I find it hard to argue with the numbers. Why cater to the 10 million "birds in the hand" when you can go after the 100 million "birds in the bush".
Sure, if us "Professional Developers" can find a few scraps to keep us buying, then they will let us do it.
But the number of non-enterprise developers is staggering. And Microsoft has refocused to them now and abandoned the Enterprise developer.
We just don't matter to them anymore.
@Vaccanoll
Those 100 million birds won't buy Visual Studio Professional or higher. Microsoft is hoping that those 100 million birds will write them Metro apps using VS Express. Won't happen – to create Metro apps you need to be on Windows 8 – those 100 million birds won't buy Windows 8. Even they know that Windows 8 is totally unusable. Trust me, Microsoft's recent business plans will only generate financial loss. They're not considering all the variables when making decisions.
It was a big mistake to mix traditional Windows and Metro into Windows 8. It's crap on desktops/laptops because of Metro and it's crap on tablets because of traditional Windows. It should have been a 100% tablet OS.
@Jason
I agree. With Windows CE/Windows Mobile they tried to take the desktop to mobile devices.
If failed miserably with consumers. Because mobile devices are very different in use and form than desktops. (Though Enterprise developers loved it.)
Now with WinRT and Windows 8 they are trying to go the other way.
But mobile devices are STILL very different from desktops.
Microsoft's attempt to push a mobile system onto the desktop will only be successful to those who want to use their desktop like a mobile device.
In short, I don't think either one is a good idea…
But, as I stated, they don't care about our developer demographic any more. What we have to say just isn't important because they believe that success against Apple and Google will come via the Non-Enterprise developer.
And they are willing to accept all Enterprise developers as causalities of that war.
@Vaccanoll: "But, as I stated, they don't care about our developer demographic any more. What we have to say just isn't important because they believe that success against Apple and Google will come via the Non-Enterprise developer."
This might indeed be what they believe, but that belief is flawed as it's based on wrong assumptions.
The Windows 8 tablet-OS is not suitable for productive tasks. You need Windows 8 to develop Metro apps. Software development is a productive task. Meaning that Windows 8 is not a suitable development environment.
There won't be any success against Apple and Google, there will only be failure.
1. Why would anyone use Windows 8 as a development environment when it's totally non-productive?
2. Why would the Express developer, who refused to pay for Professional+, invest in Windows 8 which is a prerequisite for doing Metro development?
How insane Microsoft, I have defended many decisions you have made with regards to Windows 8, but this is NOT one of them I can defend. Why are you trying to kill desktop development? Forcing people to pay to make desktop apps to use .NET 4.5 or C++ 11 won't force people to switch to Metro development, it will just infuriate them.
@Vaccanoll
What is even more fun, they apparently expect the 10 million professional developers to continue paying, the $799.00 – $3,799.00 (current) annual subscription fee, so they can focus on the development needs of the other 90 million non-enterprise developers using the free express editions.
@CJR Connect
That is why they have the User Voice site. It is all a gimmick to try and get the Enterprise Developers to think that they are still the users that Microsoft cares about.
If they can do a few token changes and make Enterprise Developers "think" we are getting our way then many companies will still buy the next version (or continue MSDN Subscriptions).
For example: Very few people are brain dead enough to think that even though All Caps are universally hated in Section Titles, everyone will not mind them in the Main Menu.
But, by moving the All Caps to the Main Menu they get everyone to focus on that. They can then say they "listen" to Enterprise developers by "fixing" something that costs them very little. (I expect the RTM Version will not have any Caps.)
At the same time they put their real effort ($$$) into Metro/WinRT.
And ignore C++ and .Net 4.5 XP compatibility requests. They also will ignore requests for an actually usable UI (and a laundry list of .Net and C++ bugs and feature requests).
a lot better than beta… waiting to try rc version.
Start button gone, VS11 interface is ugly, no Express for desktop apps, no command-line compilers for desktop apps… You're playing double-or-nothing and just ASSUMING you won't end up with nothing. I would love to hear the internal debates at Microsoft about these trends and how the whole Metro push is being handled. You are burning bridges and winning no new friends out here…
So here in Australia to develop any Win 8 desktop application we will have to pay AU$2085 which is what Microsoft Australia charges for Visual Studio? Even though US dollar and Aussie dollar are parity we will have to pay 400% of the US$499 cost for american developers?
This is a stupid, short-sighted decision that only an ageing dinosaur of a company can make. Steve Jobs must be spinning in his grave laughing his butt off.
Guess I will learn Java now….
How about all the students / enthusiasts / hobbyists who want to learn the latest C++ C# VB you want them to buy windows 8 and play with metro ? Please this is madness bring express to windows 7 .
Wow, you need Pro version to compile Desktop apps on Windows 8?? Come on guys… I want to believed that Microsoft was beginning to make things better, not worse.
Excellent decision. This will do wonders for MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, and Clang market share. Thanks for the help!
P.S. I find it hard to believe that XP incompatibility is for any technical reason. The Windows 2000 incompatibilities of 2010 were 'we now call an API that XORs numbers', trivially fixable by linking assembler no-op functions. Blatant dishonesty and planned obsolescence are not ways to win developers over.
As one of the core developers for the Perl programming language, VS Express was essential for us to support Perl on Windows. This decision is disappointing as it will force developers to purchase new editions in order to support them.
I've been using Visual Studio since I was 13, this is the worst move you guys have ever made in all the years that I have been programming. Removing the ability to build desktop applications? Are you trying to kill Windows off completely? Not everyone wants a Tablet/Phone, and not every damn application requires Metro. Metro is fine for crap like Weather apps and twitter apps, but for people who need to get real work done they are going to use the desktop, you idiots!
Sadly this just shows how out of touch with its developer base it is. Too expensive and/or too limiting – for nothing other than for the sake of it.
I guess its time to drop Visual Studio completely, then.
GG Microsoft
You are trying to kill the Open Source Base for Windows. a PC is not a mobile nor a toy. Take more seriously your users.
Take back my computer!
You guys need to really get out there on the internet and goto forums where programs discuss things and ask them how the feel about crap like this, it's very clear you guys only asked "Yes-Men" instead of people who will tell you what they really think of this garbage
If you want your users to be happy, you need to reach out to them and let them know before it is too late!
I've just read through 10 pages and not seen one positive comment. With most things that Microsoft has done recently there have usually been at least some people to which it has been appealing. However this is the first time that I have seen absolutely universal condemnation.
In the words of the Ars Technica article: "There is no upside to this decision. It is immensely bad."
Couldn't have put it better myself.
I am the head developer at a small (25 employees) software company. We write scientific graphics software for the Windows platform. In my 25 years of doing this I have never been so disappointed with Microsoft. Not supporting XP with the new c++ language features makes VS11 a non-starter for us.
I am truly baffled that MS thinks it is acceptable for us to drop 30% of our customers (those still using XP). We don't want to support XP, we HAVE to. Our choices are simple. Stick with Vs2010, or find a non-Microsoft alternative that will give us the new c++ language features we want. I hear Intel's compiler is pretty good. Microsoft, what were you thinking when you made these decisions?
express editions only for metro?
have you lost your minds? 🙂 there is absolutly no reason for this other that greed and alienating you userbase. way to go 🙂
And you're acutually suggesting using the 2010 express versions as an alternative? You really dont have any respect for your customers do you..
No support for developing desktop apps with the express editions is an enormous slap in the face. No support for XP is a disappointment, too.
Have a look at the following post by Herb Sutter:
"World’s youngest C++ programmer?" herbsutter.com/…/worlds-youngest-c-programmer
And ask yourself whether such a feat could still exist with an unusable free version of Visual Studio.
Thank you, Microsoft, for pushing MinGW & Clang's development even harder.
By the way, I am still waiting for the post in which you are going to announce that the retard behind the disappearance of colors in icons and all other random UI changes that are plaguing VS 11 has been excluded from the VS team and that your are back to actually listening to your customers.
Big late thank you for WDK 7.1 (Windows Developer Kit 7.1), this with SDK 7.1 is my toolkit choice for Windows development @ home. It allows me to target MSVCRT.DLL and have dozen of open source libs compiled as dlls like this. I keep using WinDBG, and getting more and more out of it. Thank you for it too! Thank you also, for the wonderful SysInternal tools.
As for work… Well thank you for making me having VS2005, VS2008, and VS2010 installed… because we support Autodesk products dating back couple of years 🙂
And yeah, it was only then I realized what multi-targeting means – How come I was able to compile VS2005 with VS2010, but my coworker was not able to? Well… he had only VS2010 installed! Problem solved! Thank you for that one too…
Lastly – WinRT is cool, bro! And thank you for coloring all eggs gray and grey.
It's about time they killed that nasty hack of a language called C++… It was great back in the 70's, but hanging onto an outdated syntax is not doing anyone any favors… Move forward with innovative syntax, the syntax that makes sense for 2012, the syntax of the future. Once we get rid of C and Linux and maybe even those Macintosh craputers, I'll be happy.
This is Microsoft using dirty handed tactics to force usage scenarios on users and developers because they were unable to out innovate the competition, now they are trying to out strategize them using dirty methods and us as the foot soldiers, typical Microsoft. I know it's tough for them not to, but I would put customer loyalty first and never do this in a million years.
To everyone else, just type the product name u want followed by the word "torrent" in google, once product is released, and u can use the full paid version for free, with the crack. Why isn't everyone (apart from corporate devs) doing this it beats me. Cracked version compiles the same, works the same as the paid full version. Remember the magic word, torrent the hell out of it.
@Erx: Actually, it's even simpler. You don't have to pirate anything, etc. Just download the current version of VS Express (previous version will work fine, too) and the SDK, and use them forever. Ignore Windows 8, ignore Metro, stick to desktop. Done.
@Dennis
Not that simple. Unless you want to develop in an old environment with hundreds of known bugs. For C++ developers MinGW seems like a perfectly good alternative. Perhaps one day Clang will support Windows as well.
@Jason: I agree with you, of course. Having to live with the old bugs (of which there are plenty) forever is not fun. Better to move to something that is being developed. I just wanted to say that you don't have to pirate anything to do that, the Express version of VS and the current SDK will likely be enough to carry you for some time.
It seems that the post-RTM update for targeting XP will be just that: a package with 2010 compiler and libraries as an add-on to VS11. Not what everyone is hoping for…
@Jason: I have made a custom patched build of Clang 3.0 that sorta-works on Windows.
No way, only VS 11 Professional allow write desktop apps, so this version must be pirated. But programmers are lazy, and does not have time to find these pirated versions. Can you MS prepare for these devs pirated version ? New name will be "VS 11 Professional Pirate Edition", basically payed version, but without checking password or registration key.
Thanks in advance 🙂
It seems that VS11 Pro is going to become the next Photoshop.
With respect to the level of piracy, I mean.
Metro is great for dashboards and content consumption. For anything even remotely complex, the desktop is still required. I know MS wants to push Metro really hard to get people to see their vision, but frankly, it's a flawed vision. Even though I have an MSDN subscription, I'm tempted to let it lapse in protest and see how the free development tools are doing these days. Who knows? Maybe I'll tinker with Linux again. It's been decades, but if I have to relearn everything, might as well try them all out. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
This is much worse than we originally thought. See this post for details: social.msdn.microsoft.com/…/c05a8c02-de67-47a9-b4ed-fd8b622a7e4a
If you develop with Visual Studio 11 and target .NET 4.0, then when you run, all the bugs that were fixed in .NET 4.5 will be fixed for your debug session (even though you are targeting .NET 4.0.
So, if you unknowingly rely on those bug fixes and release your app to computers that only have .NET 4.0 (ie XP) then your app will FAIL.
So, VS 11 does worse than not support XP, it anti-supports it. It will HIDE bugs from you while you develop.
This is HORRIBLE.
I would have to know watch out for all fixed bugs for .NET 4.5 (there is no list that I can find) or always debug on an XP VM or fully retest everything that I code on an XP machine. (think of all the little tests you run when you debug, are you really going to get that level of testing a second time around?)
It is looking like I will have to BAN Visual Studio 11 from even being installed at my company.
This is indeed bad news. I have been advocating the Express editions as a start point for students. It is simple to use, help to learn C++ and give the skills needed in the professional IDE.
It seems that Microsoft now is not a developers, developers, developers company anymore.
—
http://www.josuegomes.com
Will any of the versions run on RT?
I would like you to please consider and read the following article…
social.msdn.microsoft.com/…/c05a8c02-de67-47a9-b4ed-fd8b622a7e4a
and then have a look at this:
visualstudio.uservoice.com/…/2723735-make-net-4-5-work-on-any-os-that-supports-4-0
Please at least take this into consideration… I specially like the comment made by RubenP on the first article at Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:18 PM as a answer to Allen Chen [MSFT] s comment…
In this new version of Visual Studio 11 will it resolve the issues of excluding files from a project. As soon as I do this , the excluded files will get flagged as candidates for deletion in the pending changes window. This seems to be a known issue from Microsoft, and from what I've gather reading, the only know workaround is to manually edi the project file to remove this entry. Is this issue resolved??
wtf are you people doing?
I'd like to see the internal communication(s) between this developer and chip-makers like intel, etc, etc…….
Boooo!
I do not like the new Visual Studio at all. I do like the look of the Metro OS, but I can't stand the new visual studio. Is is possible to install my VS2010 Ultimate on Win8, and build metro apps that way?
Unbelievable that .Net 4.5 is not running on XP. 30% our customer use XP. We as partner http://www.woax-it.com/ have now big problems. We can not switch to 4.5, but we need the features and the lot bug fixes in WPF .Net 4.0
buhahahahahahahha…..what the bull *** ez this?/.
I don't want to write 'Metro' applications, I want to write applications full stop!! I'm gob-smacked at how for years we've been seperating the various layers i.e. application layer and a style layer, but now I'm being told that it's all wrapped up in one again!!! Or am I getting this wrong?
I don't really understand why anybody would want to write an app, that will only work on one OS and the look is determined by the OS not the designer. But then I've only been coding for 30yrs, what would I know!!!
Microsoft are completely within their rights to do this, however that doesn't mean they're not insane to do so! If they imagine that corporate developers (i.e. those who can afford to pay $500+) will create some of the innovative software that made previous versions of Windows useful to a majority of people, then they really haven't got a clue what they're doing.
This is another slide into the death of Windows as far as I'm concerned. One wonders how they spent so much time making an OS with so little use. My use of it stops right here. I will NOT be buying or installing the 'fixed' Windows 8 (i.e. Windows 9). As soon as I find my product key for the Windows 7 I replaced with this horrible Windows Hate, I'll be reinstalling it and then get back to writing proper applications again. Windows Hate and all the accompanying accessories can f@ck off as far as I'm concerned.
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