W3C Web Performance: Continuing Performance Investments

The W3C Web Performance working group recently held the W3C Workshop on Performance on Thursday, November 8, 2012. The goal was to hear current challenges and proposals for new performance ideas for the working group to consider. There were 45 attendees from 21 organizations, including most browser manufactures (Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla), hardware organizations (Intel, Qualcomm, Nokia, Motorola), network organizations (Cisco, Akamai, F5), and top Web properties (GMail, Google Search, Bing, NetFlix, LinkedIn, Zynga, and more). Details on the presentations and discussions from the workshop can be found in this report.

Providing the ability to accurately measure the performance characteristics of Web applications and create power- and CPU-efficient applications is critical to Web performance. The W3C Web Performance working group worked on achieving those goals in its recently completed second chartered period. In under two years, the working group rapidly standardized and modern HTML5-enabled Web browsers implemented these eight interfaces: Navigation Timing, Resource Timing, User Timing, Performance Timeline, Page Visibility, Timing control for script-based animations, High Resolution Time and Efficient Script Yielding. Internet Explorer 10 is the first browser to support all eight of these new APIs.

The working group has since been focused on gathering data to understand which areas to focus on in its third chartered period. In addition to the Workshop on Performance, the working group has invited performance experts to its weekly conference calls and has broadly surveyed the performance community on ideas.

Based on all the data gathered these past few months, the Web Performance working group has decided to focus on the following areas in the third chartered period:

  • Timing Metrics The working group will continue to improve the Timing interfaces, Navigation Timing, Resource Timing, User Timing and Performance Timeline. For example, we will consider providing Web workers support in the Timing interfaces and including information on video byte ranges in Resource Timing.
  • Efficient Script Yielding The working group will continue to improve on power- and CPU-efficient APIs, like the setImmediate API defined in the Efficient Script Yielding specification.
  • Prerender The working group will standardized the prerender feature which allows navigations to appear almost “instantly” in cases where the browser has high confidence that a user will visit an URL.  The way this feature would work is that the browser will proactively navigate to a Web page in a hidden tab, when it sees the “prerender” link type or has high confidence that user will visit that link. When the user does visit that link, the browser will make the hidden tab visible, giving the perception of instant navigation.
  • Resource Priorities Today, browsers download resources in the priority order that they believe are most efficient in helping the page load occur quickly. However, developers may want to prioritize some resources over others. For example, downloading images above the fold may be of higher priority than those below the fold. Though, developers can give some hints to the browser on download priority, like using the “defer” and “async” attributes in markup, these concepts do not include most resources. To help the browser prioritize downloading resources, the working group is expanding the charter to include interoperable means for developers to give the browser hints on the download priority of resources.
  • Diagnostics Interfaces Developers are interested in learning how to make their Web applications faster and less error prone. The working group is expanding the charter to include interoperable means for developers to get browser diagnostics information on their Web applications. For example, using these interfaces a developer could understand where memory is leaking or what errors users are encountering on their Web applications.
  • Beacon Today, analytics scripts will block the current page from unloading by running in a loop in order to confirm that analytics data has been sent to a Web server. This behavior will delay the navigation to the next page, resulting in user perception of poor performance. To help developers avoid that pattern, the working group is expanding the charter to include an interoperable means for developers to asynchronously transfer data from the browser to a Web server, with a guarantee from the browser that the data will eventually be sent.
  • Display Performance Developers are interested in understanding the performance of their games and animations.
    The working group is expanding the charter to include interoperable means for developers to get frame rate and throughput of the display type of information.

This working group is a great example of how quickly new ideas can become interoperable standards that developers can depend on in modern HTML5-enabled browsers. Together with industry and community leaders who participate in the working group, we hope to continue to make rapid progress on interoperable standards that will benefit developers and everyone who uses the Web.

Jatinder Mann, Internet Explorer, Program Manager

Comments (66)

  1. Henri says:

    I'd like to know the number of core available in the machine to have an estimate of the number of web workers that I can launch… (even if I know that other tabs can be using other core too).

  2. Keyboard Junkie says:

    Internet Explorer and performance in one sentence!!!

    Lets start with these 4 tests hixie.ch/…/video

    Compare with Opera and Chrome.

    Now you will tend to Ignore my comment as if you haven't read it. Because unlike Visual C team at Microsoft, you guys don't want to do your job with seriousness.

    The day you "actually" start working on IE performance. Hixie.ch has some great challenges.

  3. Andrew says:

    Does all this talk about performance mean that you're ready to talk about the failed usability of IE10 in Windows 8 yet?

    Are you ready to discuss the problems with the flash censorship list you created?!

    Are you ready to talk about session high jacking as a result of dual OS browsers not sharing a session and the unseen browser remaining open enabling security breaches?

    Ps that was a funny joke in your opening remarks…. Top web properties… "Bing"… I snorted coffee everywhere!  You couldn't pay most people to use Bing…. Just like you couldn't pay developers to develop in IE with the lousy IE dev tools.

  4. Mike Dimmick says:

    @Keyboard Junkie: Yes, because rendering videos by manipulating the background colours of table cells and DIV elements is such a common use case.

    It's conceivable that canvas.fillRect might be used commonly by some games, but if you were going to do sprite manipulation you'd draw to an offscreen canvas and then blit the resulting bitmap to the front buffer. Also, if setting single pixels? Use setPixel rather than fillRect.

  5. @KeyboardJunkie: There's a reason that the tests are called "Silly." You'll also find that IE10 is competitive with everyone else here anyway.

    @Andrew: Sorry to interrupt your rant, but the value in closing browsers when you've completed a security-sensitive action isn't new; it's always been there, even if you didn't realize it. blogs.msdn.com/…/understanding-browser-session-lifetime.aspx

  6. Manufacturing Urgency says:

    It seems people are pointing out edge cases that don't represent real world examples and then saying it shows IE is inferior.  If the concern is truely making IE better than point to something closer to real world that could be an actionable item for the IE team.

  7. Chris says:

    Is the "prerender" something that browsers currently support?

  8. PreRender is a newish feature of Chrome; I'm not sure whether they have it on by default yet.

  9. Keyboard Junkie says:

    @EricLaw, I don't understand why you are offended by my feedback. Its a simple theorem: if Opera and Chrome can execute it in less time, why can't IE? The skeleton might look silly, but its just a test case which can be extended to some real world scenario.

    No? Alright then. Lets talk about the real world scenario. http://www.cdolivet.com/…/exemple_full.html is an opensource and colorful code editor, often used in ecommerce websites. Open it in IE. Click on the code and you will roll your eyes. Open in any non-IE and try the same. This kind of things happen with many text editors when opened in IE, like freezing the editor's UI which click back and forth into it. Check out the tiny_mce bug tracker for IE related bugs.

    Can we expect it to fix in IE10 or IE11? When is the next release scheduled? after 2 years? *sigh*

    Please consider bug fixing for IE10 and rollout some quick updates fixing the bugs effecting the productivity and performance.  IE isn't just a product developed by the company you used to work for, its a platform where 50% of computer users spend their 50% day time. So a little bug may effect 1000s out there.

  10. Real McCoy says:

    @Eric Law, you are the only closest to official person who cares about our comments and we love to have you here with us. 🙂

    Can you talk to the SVG team to consider fixing these three issues I discovered in IE10:




    (perhaps a lunch break gig for a guy who just finished implementing the entire standard!)

    I believe if all the genuine bugs, pertaining to IE, reported on Connect, social forums, MS Community and Stackoverflow are collected and get addressed and an update is released for that, IE will be the most reliable for web-devs. Currently it is excellent in performance and eagerly supporting standards too (with some exactness and completeness issues). But I'd like to assume that Microsoft is not just about "fair enough" anymore.

    Believe it or not, outside Microsoft people spend hours testing, debugging and locating bugs hoping that someone is going to care but its a very hopeless situation. I can imagine the development lifecycle is pretty tricky and the pressure on IE team (as IE has other responsibilities at OS level too). But there must be some way to involve the community and mitigate the gaps in community and updates.

  11. raymond says:

    when are you going to release the finished IE 10 for windows 7?

  12. @raymond says:

    When it's finished

  13. sam says:

    IE 10 crashes on sites with many youtube videos on when you play and pause some of them.

  14. Daniel says:

    The session issue in IE is this.

    1.) login to secure app in Metro IE

    2.) navigate to a page that requires a plugin

    3.) on the security bar that opens choose to open the page in the desktop

    4.) get re-routed to desktop IE

    5.) get taken to the login page because you have no session

    6.) re find your way to the page you wanted

    7.) do your work

    8.) logout

    Now… Are you aware you just left a session open in IE metro to your secure enterprise app?

    #SessionFail in #Windows8

  15. @Daniel: I think you're confused about the security model in all general-purpose operating systems. Anyone with full access to your PC could simply install logging code and monitor your interactions with ANY browser or website. That's why it's important to lock your workstation when you're not using it.

  16. Sunil says:

    @keyBoard Site seems to doing some browser detection, as it Runs find in Compatibility mode. This is a developer issue not IE.

  17. @Frank: If you ever use any browser to access any sensitive site in a "cyber-café," it's safe to assume that your credentials and everything you've looked at will be seen by other people. It's one of the fundamental laws of computer security that you cannot securely browse from an insecure client.

  18. lol says:

    Throw X-UA-Compatible: requiresActiveX=true on the login page if it requires plugins.  Problem solved.

  19. kris says:

    Not sure if Ie team really have done something except best in theory. Yes, Ie10 is amazing but who have support them. for me the most of application not want me to use Ie10 🙁

    Chrome !, this is only one who can run tweet-deck any many other great apps.

  20. etacarinae says:

    Hey IE Team,

    How about you give we users back the customisability that made IE8 such an excellent browser? Dumb down the interface as much as you like, but at least put options there for we users to maintain previous functionality.

  21. Harold says:

    Is there a complete list of the JavaScript features that IE 10 Metro no longer supports?





    window.status = '…';


  22. @etacarinae1 says:

    What exactly are you "really" missing ?

    If it takes you more than 10 seconds to think of anything, just admit that your are yet another anti-MSFT troll, so pleasee don't bother visiting this blog and get yourself another browser.

    ~happy interneting~

    ^^ isn't it why we come online?

  23. PhistucK says:

    @"@Harold" (the one who replied, not the original poster) –

    Are you sure this list applies to new style Internet Explorer 10 as well?

    I would not be so sure, some of these are extreme difference (all of the features that suddenly use toStaticHTML) and would certainly break websites.

    For example, document.write cannot inject script tags anymore. Many websites, unfortunately, rely on this.

    I believe this really applies only to Windows Store applications.

  24. raymond says:

    Why is IE 10 for windows 7 unfinished? Is the code different from the windows 8 version by a lot?

  25. @PhistucK says:

    Not all but some of them doesn't work. Mostly those related to window.

    window.confirm() doesn't work but

    document.write and body.behaviorUrns  do work

    This is the closest list I have found. Beyond that list all JS functions are working on "IE10 Modern UI".

  26. Jacob says:

    Can we please get official word from Microsoft on what the heck to call this new start screen OS in Windows 8?!

    We can't call it Metro because of the lawsuit

    We can't call it the desktop because that's the name of the real OS hiding under this one

    We can't call it "Modern" like the MS Trolls want to call it because this new OS skin is as modern as pong.. Flat, 2D, with all usability hints removed (e.g. About as far from modern as realistically possible)

    We can't call it Vista2.0 because although it is just as big a mess at least Vista had usable scrollbars that don't look like the designer had never heard of photoshop.


    FlatBox Mode?

    Basic Tiles Mode?

    Boot screen?

    Picasso Mode?

    Colorado Mode?

    Unimaginitive Mode?

    Usability Fail Mode?

    Epilepsy Mode?

    We gave up on border-radius mode?

    We need to know what this is called so we can update our documentation to properly label this mode when we are informing our customers that it isn't supported at all.

    If we don't get an answer we'll just call it x-metro mode and let you guys deal with the confused customers.

  27. pmbAustin says:

    Wondering if anyone else is experiencing this bug in IE10-Desktop (I am on two machines… non-touch Desktop and Laptop):  Open three tabs.  Close one.  The tabs are now wider, taking up the same space as three tabs, only there's only two.  Open another tab and then close it.  The tabs get even wider.  Close another, and the remaining tab is super-wide.

    The tab sizes will reset when you mouse over certain objects.  I have the favorites bar active beneath the tabs, and if you mouse over one of the favorites buttons, the tabs will resize.

    This bug is not present in IE9

  28. @pmbAustin says:

    It is not a bug.

    <3 this feature.

  29. Stan says:


    This is a feature, not a bug!

    Suppose you have 10 tabs opened. Now you want to close 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th tab. You will need to first one of them, move your mouse to its close button and click 4 times. The next tab would replace the position of the closed one and you don't have to move your mouse to point the next tab's close button.

    – Stan

  30. Neil says:

    Is there a way in IE10 to preserve sessions across both IE browsers?

    As a user I'm finding it incredibly annoying that I'm logged in to certain apps on the desktop and certain apps/sites in ex-Metro IE.

    As I keep switching between them I'll click on a link that takes me to say… Facebook or linked in but I'm not logged in (even though in the other mode I am!)

    Is there a setting somewhere I need to set to make session sharing work?

    Eg RealUser=True

    For now I've just had to disable the Ex-Metro browser and force everything to render on desktop IE.

  31. IE user says:

    How do I block a certain popup in IE10?

  32. pmbAustin says:

    It's a bug to me.  I really hate it.  I end up with one HUGE ULTRA WIDE tab after closing a bunch of tabs.  Very annoying and ugly.  I'm not sure I "get" how this is a feature.  It seems to be trying to solve a problem I've never had.  At the very least let me turn this new behavior off, because it's awful.  It just LOOKS like a bug.  Really weird behavior.

    Okay, another bug:  the synchronization is really annoying.  I have a desktop and a laptop both on Windows 8, synchronizing the favorites.  In one, I delete a favorite.  It almost instantly comes back.  I usually have to delete it two or three times before it "sticks".  It's VERY frequent.  It doesn't happen every time, but it happens a majority of the times.  I had one that kept popping back a few seconds after being deleted for FIVE TIMES before it stayed gone.  

    This is not what I expect from "synchronized favorites/bookmarks".

  33. Stan says:

    @pmbAustin, this is NOT a bug. It is a PRODUCTIVITY feature.

    Many power users had this hiccup while closing multiple tabs. You just need to move the mouse away ONCE, when you are finished closing all the tabs you wanted and the rest will be resized on mouse out (as opposed to moving the mouse each time after closing a tab to target the next tab's close button)

    The other issue about favorites is not reproducible on my system: Windows 7 x64 Ultimate edition, IE10 release-preview. I deleted a favorite just once and it never appeared again.

    Btw, blogs is not the place for this kind of discussion; reporting bugs. Microsoft Connect certainly is. You can attach log dumps and screenshot to help people reproducing the issue. Unless your intent is merely trolling and foul mouthing against the product. In which case, you will never get satisfied because AFAIK b*tching is a personality disorder.

  34. IE User says:

    When and how often will there be updates to IE10 preview?

  35. Tom says:

    Test to load a web page from a server with 1000+  1×1 pixel images.  The client and server are separated by a 1gb switch.  This tests the slowness of multiple connections.  This measures end to end minimal connection times.

  36. @Tom says:

    Why would you test a ridiculous scenario with 1000 images.

    The result would be meaningless as it is not a real world scenario.

  37. Peter says:

    @Stan – MS Connect was a complete and utter failure due to miss-management by Microsoft and a lack of any real commitment to public bug tracking.

    Everyone I know that participated in the IE7 round and the IE8 round were extremely offended when their hard work was ignored and then deleted.

    Needless to say bug reporters were not going to be burned 3 times in a row and as such Connect was nearly completely abandoned by developers during IE9 testing.

    You couldn't pay most developers to participate on connect anymore – I know I certainly won't ever go back.

    The requested apology for the terrible behavior was also ignored – another sign of Microsofts closed corporate mentality instead of actually working with the community.

  38. @Tom says:

    Try http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com. There are more than 10,000 links on one page. It takes 2 seconds to load this page on high speed internet

  39. @Peter says:

    What is the point of daily coming back to blogs website with this same argument? If you don't want to submit a bug report on Connect, then don't post it here either. Blogs is not the place to submit bug report.

  40. pmbAustin says:

    I'm sorry, but it LOOKS like a bug. It's very weird and unexpected and even jarring behavior.  I hate it, and want to turn it off.  It's even made me accidentally close tabs I didn't want to because it's so unexpected.  Why did they waste time on this "feature" when there are so many other UI things I'd rather see (like more customization ability, consistency in home button location between web pages and pinned sites, option for separate persistent search box like in IE8, better handling of favicons (IE is still the only browser that seems to consistently have trouble displaying the correct favicon), etc.

    And the "deleted favorites reappearing" doesn't happen every time, but it happens consistently.  I'm not sure if it's because I have THREE systems (desktop, laptop, Surface RT) all trying to sync, or what.  But it's very annoying, and happens a lot (just not predictably).

    My experience with Connect is that anything I post is either ignored, or closed as "won't fix" or "working as designed" within seconds, so I never bother any more.  It's a waste of my time.

  41. Steve says:

    @"@Peter" the point is pretty darn obvious! You're the only one that doesn't get it!

    A:) Please Immediately Stop telling people to report bugs in Connect – We REFUSE to do so (see endless rants on this blog as to why)

    B:) Please Immediately Stop telling people to not report bugs here on the IE Blog – This is the **ONLY** place where the bugs can receive proper attention by both Microsoft and Web Developers that want to read about the bugs, check out test cases posted online, and readers can then start Tweeting / using social networks to advise others about the issues and add public incentive for Microsoft to actually respond/fix the issues!

    Please post all IE bug reports right here on the IE Blog.  Even if you do decide to waste your time filing one in Connect, put a copy of it here on the IE Blog so that the rest of us can read it/follow up.

  42. @Steve says:

    I really haven't seen many rants about connect on here and I've certainly not seen any bugs get noticed in these comments

  43. @@Steve,

    Take a look at Real McCoy's comment above. He has reported three issues with SVG which I can reproduce with ease, following the steps of reproduction in bug reports. Out of those three reported bugs, two of them are already closed as Won't Fix. As opposed to other teams at Microsoft, IE team never use Closed as "Deferred" (putting the bug in "pending" category). They close it straight-forwardly and expect you to resubmit the bug report when next version of IE arrives and accepting bugs. At that point, they are focusing on tons of new standards to incorporate, therefore most of the old bugs get closed "by design". This is the reason there are ages old bugs never resolved.

    Not everyone criticizing is ranting. People actually feel "pain" when they report something to IE team, hoping someday the team member will acknowledge and update them about the status of the issue, but the next morning the bug report is closed (as won't fixed or by design).

    If you have ever followed any other product on Connect, you will notice that IE team is the only one having having difficulties in keeping the bug reports open and giving proper feedback to the reported bug. An example would be the Visual Studio team. They tend to keep the bug report open unless it is solved and during that period they update the concerned users about the progress on "vcblog" and connect as well.

  44. @ Daniel says:

    Just to recap what you've written:

    1.) login to secure app in Metro IE

    2.) navigate to a page that requires a plugin

    3.) on the security bar that opens choose to open the page in the desktop

    4.) get re-routed to desktop IE

    5.) get taken to the login page because you have no session

    6.) re find your way to the page you wanted

    7.) do your work

    8.) logout

    Are you aware you just left a session open in IE metro to your secure enterprise app?

    But the truth is:

    That is exactly what happens in an incompetently written “secure app“. The persons responsible for the coding and the testing should be educated (if you are well-meaning) or fired (if you are less inclined to tolerate such incompetence).

    The problem lies in 1.)

    The app termed “secure app” by you MUST check if the prerequisites for the app are met. The absolutely latest point to do this is after you’ve submitted your credentials, but before you are actually logged in. That should actually happen much earlier for security reasons, but that is beside the point of this discussion. But at this point latest the user should be notified that she/he is required to provide the necessary prerequisites, which in this case would be the desktop IE. But NO LOGIN MUST BE ALLOWED in this case and thus no open session. There are plenty of possibilities to implement such a check in ECMAscript (included also in some frameworks) and should be implemented for ALL BROWSERS. There is however a means to do this more easily provided by Microsoft by including the META tag “X-UA-Compatible: requiresActiveX=true”. This is a vendor specific solution and should be used only as a second layer to a general implementation.

    Giving the blame for a sloppy and incompetent implementation of an app to the browser that runs it is – to put it mildly – “far fetched”. I just hope that you find a competent programmer for your “secure app” who knows what she/he is doing.

  45. Travis says:


    If 90% of the app does not require flash or any other plugin then why force all users to leave Mehtro in order to log in?

    The problem is that Microsoft took a 100% all or nothing approach for supporting flash… And forced developers to release private info in order to gain full flash support.

    I'm not willing to give Microsoft access to my app in order for them to run their scans and my clients would be horrified to hear that their secure data was exposed so willingly to 3rd parties without an NDA or waiver of any kind.

    In the end it is simple – enterprise apps simply do not support Mehtro… There's no point in doing so and the future constraints of the browser are completely unknown.

    It's hard to believe there is anyone left in the IE team with any moral compass now that Eric Lawrence and Chris Wilson are gone.

  46. @Travis says:

    Have any of you chumps actually tried Windows RT tablet? Even Windows RT has both IE modern UI and IE desktop versions!! Why are you still whining about Flash??

  47. Nick says:

    @ "@Travis" – I have a windows surface RT tablet bought specifically for testing web application compatibility.

    The good:

    The tablet has a USB slot and the keyboard cover / kickstand is somewhat handy.

    The bad:

    The device is a magnet for fingerprints and the keyboard transfers key prints to the screen.

    The keyboard has zero physical feedback.

    There's like no apps in the store and what is there are horrible

    The split screen is useless for most apps

    The metro ie browser is slow and opening new tabs is awkward with flashing UI elements

    Rendering seems sluggish in metro ie as if the webview container wasn't dedicated enough ram to run properly (similar to the iOS webview that makes wrapped web apps suck)

    Still scores the lowest of all modern browsers on html5test.com and similar sites

    Favorites in metro don't exist anymore (major regression!) and don't even get me started about "pinning" which is NOT a favorite

    Flash support across sites is hit and miss, which as a user completely sucks… Microsoft failed hard on this one because they didn't punish the web developers they punished the end users (but let's not restart the rants about the fact it should have been a user defined blacklist – not a whitelist! (Biggest architectural fail this decade))

    Flash support on desktop ie isn't much better! I've found many cases where flash works on Windows 7 but fails in windows 8 desktop!

    The UI controls on the desktop are too small to touch properly

    There's no JavaScript API to call / differentiate metro from desktop

    Going full screen in desktop mode (F11) is darn near impossible to restore from

    But worst of all you can't install ANY desktop apps!!!!!!!!!!!

    This makes the desktop ABSOLUTELY USELESS for anything other than file management!

  48. PhistucK says:

    @"@Nick" (the one who replied, not the original poster) –

    >- WinRT is not supposed to install the i386 binary based desktop apps from third party sources. Only few desktop apps are highly optimized to run on low-energy-consuming ARM processors.

    What is your point? Who cares if only some are optimized? The fact is that you cannot install any application, but only a few ones. You need tools that you can install and run in other computers, but you cannot install and run in on a Windows RT device. This sucks. Period.

    >- No API for JavaScript ? Are you f*cking nuts? You CAN call any javascript in Web applications and the entire Windows RT API is exposed via JavaScript to develop Windows Store apps, known as WinJS.

    Nick meant that there is no specific API in JavaScript that could tell the website, "the user is currently using the modern style user interface of Internet Explorer 10, not the desktop one".

    Regarding HTML5 and draft specifications, Internet Explorer 10 does implement some, vendor prefixed, draft specifications. You cannot say that only stable and 'actively used' draft specifications are the only thing it supports. As I recall, CSS Grid Layout was not really used, for example, as well as CSS Regions. Every browser implements some of the things that everyone already uses and some of the things that no one uses, in order to promote those new specifications and make them active.

    While html5test.com is not the most reliable conformance test, it is somewhat an indication of how much of the latest technology a browser supports, or getting there, at least.

    I do appreciate the feature completeness argument, however, the browser is still behind in many, many new features and technologies.

  49. @PhistucK says:

    "the browser is still behind in many, many new features and technologies."

    In IE10 RP on Windows 7 and RTM on Windows 8, all the W3C specifications are supported which were released before 14th September 2012. html5test.com is just showing an unnecessary marathon. For developers, its a nightmare to use experimental/proposed solutions and by the time it is approved, the specification is altered. This is what happened in case of Gradient. The modern gradient is specified diagonally while the old one used to specify vertically . . . "Haste makes waste"!

    Secondly, Windows RT is supposed to run apps for tablets like iPad and Android. It is not supposed to run resource hogged desktop applications. Like you cannot run Linux application on Android _or_ Macintosh application on iOS, you cannot run Win32 application on WinRT. PERIOD.

    Now, if you don't know a sh*t, don't argue like stupid babies just to prove your point you freakng anti-Microsoft TROLLBOY!

  50. PhistucK says:

    Oh, well, I guess I saw that "you are a troll" comment coming.

    It supports new as well as old specifications, but nothing close to the competitors. Every browser has its own focus, of course.

    Windows RT sounds to me, like the worst of both of the worlds (desktop and mobile), if you think about it. On one hand, it is Windows, but it is not really Windows, because you cannot really run everything you want on it. And it is not a normal mobile operating system, too (Windows Phone is closer to that). Android and iOS are Android and iOS. Mobile operating systems. If you choose to use the same brand (Windows), but not providing as much capabilities, you confuse your users that expect a "Download" button to download software that you can run. "But, hey, it is this Windows system, there is a desktop and everything, even Office, why can I not run this software? how weird and disappointing".

    "RT" means nothing to users. Even developers could have some hard time understanding "RT" (what, run time? so? what is that supposed to mean?).

    Yes, I can understand the totally different architecture, but the mere user? yeah, right. Do not fool yourself. Users are not smart when it comes to "operating system" (or "browser"), if they even know that it has a name, let alone architectures and reasons for limitations.

    But, I guess I know nothing, like you stated. Anyone that write 'bad stuff' (even if they also appreciate some good stuff) about Microsoft is a troll, of course.

    (Stop looking for trolls.)

  51. PhistucK says:


  52. CvP says:


    Nobody cares how Windows RT sounds to you. It is a great OS for consumers.

    And you are confused about RT? lol. What about Windwos XP and Windows NT? What about HTC 8X? wtf is 8X? Lumia 920? wtf is 920? Stop being stupid.

    Stay in love with your delusional html5test.com but don't come here and spread stupid opinions.

    An example of 448 score chrome fail: newilk.com/…/Placeholder_styling

    Assuming I'm not wrong, this is the specific relevant test in html5test.com : html5test.com/…/form-other-placeholder.html

    As you can see, most browsers get full points in this test while only IE10 and Firefox support it (almost) properly.

    Out of your 448 point chrome (or webkit), there is huge percentage of points awarded for saying "yes, I support this" while what it supports may be worse than not supporting the said feature.

    So for the last time, do not quote html5test again. It is a great site for a quick overview. But it is not solid, often misleading and tests **** loads of things that are not part of HTML5 or not even standards.

    By the way, Chrome is a great browser. So is IE10 and Firefox. I personally do not like firefox except firebug.

  53. PhistucK says:

    @Riasat –

    Regarding Windows RT, this is exactly my point. Windows RT sounds like just another Windows operating system. Users assume they get Windows, not a crippled version of Windows.

    Regarding html5test.com, I did not quote from it in the first place, I just responded to "@Nick".  I did write that it is not the most reliable conformance test, like you think.

  54. Philip says:

    Windows RT will unfortunately become the new "Windows ME" as the community discovers that it is only a 1/2 windows install.

    Sadly the best part of windows will always be its powerhouse desktop and this "Mehtro" as it has often been called will always be a fluffy layer on top.

    The full name of "Windows RT" is "Windows Restricted Tablet" handcuffed at the hardware level to never be able to be capable of being a full windows machine… But designed to mock you every time you flip to the desktop and think that you can do something.

  55. Nick says:

    @ "@Nick" wow dude! watch your language there's no reason for dropping the F Bomb no matter how much you hate being ousted as an MS Troll Boy.

    I certainly do own a Surface RT tablet and I therefore certainly have used the tablet… feel free to make any request for proof that would satisfy you and I'll provide it.

    I'm a UX/UI developer, a user, a mobile app developer with over 15 years of development experience so yes I do have a clue what I'm talking about.  I merely pointed out some of the flaws with the RT version of Windows 8 and the dual desktop experience.  You'll notice that nothing I stated is really any different than others have posted before I'm just adding my opinion to back up the items previous posters had made.

    Make no mistake I use Microsoft Windows every single day to do all of my development… but that doesn't mean I'm going to be a blind fanboy about everything Microsoft Makes.

    Clearly Windows ME was a failure, as was Bob, as was Vista, as was the Zune (R.I.P.), as is the Windows Phone…. but Windows 8 has a mix of good and bad.

    On the good side Windows (the desktop version) will remain the major business platform for decades to come… but it will lose ground to services provided across the Web on a platform independent cloud.  Will Apple or Google take over? of course not… the Desktop is Microsoft's.  However in the mobile phone/tablet market Microsoft is dead last and if they want to compete they need to come out strong and not make major mistakes.

    Windows RT has great potential with battery life but the lack of any desktop apps makes it a **TERRIBLE** transition device to woo Windows users from the PC world into using a Microsoft Tablet.  In fact users will actually be extremely disappointed and feel duped when they discover that none of their existing apps will run on the device.  I think Microsoft is doing a **HUGE** dis-service by not blatantly indicating that this is a limitation of the device.  Don't get me wrong, Microsoft is free to apply spin to this to make it sound like a feature rather than a failure but they do need to make it clear.


  56. Nick says:

    @ "@Nick" con't…

    At Best Buy the other day I had to inform a customer about this deficiency as the store representative was completely clueless to the inabilities of the tablet and swore blind I was wrong until I made him read the fine print on the retail box.

    As a Web Developer I'm aware that Microsoft has made amazing strides in bringing their browser up to snuff with the competition however the legacy they've left behind of terrible support and an unwillingness to communicate with the developer community has left an incredibly sour taste in our collective mouths.

    The olive branch that Microsoft needs to extend includes the following:

    1.) Apologizing for their terrible behavior in the MS Connect site, auto-deleting 1,000's of hours of voluntary work provided to help improve IE.

    2.) Take 30 flipping seconds and finally fix the comment system on this blog once and for all.  You know legacy ASP postbacks are incredibly un-reliable, you've had written and even video proof of the problem, and several developers offering you developer assistance and testing and even the source code to fix the problem yet you've insulted us by not even acknowledging the issue.

    It's these kinds of things that make developers hate the Monopoly of Microsoft as the "Big Brother" of the Software community.

    It's the holiday season – how about an Apology Microsoft?… lets start 2013 on the right foot with a clean slate shall we?!

  57. Troll Killer says:

    @PhistucK, @Nick,

    Windows RT was launched on October 26, 2012 and today is December 09, 2012. Its pretty early to pass judgments on its success or failure. Well if you are troll, you will hate no matter how many total apps and how many great apps it will get in next few months. In case you haven't noticed, about the boot time of OS and launching time of apps, have you care to compare with the competition? Don't do that, because it will embarrass your gods Apple/Google.

    Can you run Mac apps on iPad? No! Can you run Fedora/Ubuntu apps on Android? No! Can you run Desktop apps on Windows RT? No!

    Why? Because ARM and i386 processors have different instruction set.

    So where is the  problem? Have you trolled against Apple for the very reason? Have you blamed Google for crappy, yet bloated Android operating system with tons of app crash report everyday? Most probably not. Its just you and your rage against Microsoft corporation.

    For guys like you, there are better places, such as: Slashdot.com, engadget.com, groups.google.com yada yada. There, you can join your "hate Microsoft" and "Everything developed by Microsoft is a crap" brethren . Meaning you shall be truly satisfied there.


  58. PhistucK says:

    @Troll Killer –

    Wow, why would you waste so much time and letters just to let me know (again) that I am a troll?

    Your reasoning is something that I understand and that other 'computer guys' understand. The normal user understands none of this. They understand (well, realize after trying) that they cannot run WinAMP (for example) and that, plain and simple, sucks and dissatisfying for them.

    But, you can keep on making your argument, I am sure it will convince the users…

    I am not saying Windows RT is good for nothing. I am just saying it is generally dissatisfying when it is considered as a full blown Windows operating system (tiles and desktop, unlike Windows Phone).

  59. Andrew says:

    @@Nick, as of this moment (44th day of its launch) Windows Store has 28,339 apps available and the number is growing.

    Further details on: http://metrostore.preweb.sk/

    Haters gonna hate. Don't waste your time!

  60. Sir Vive says:

    IE10 is good.

  61. Steve says:

    @Troll Killer – none of us claimed that Apple or Google was awesome or that we even felt they were good.  You obviously have a massive hate on for both of them as expressed in your replies.

    We (the collective we) care about IE and where Windows8 and Microsoft as a company are going because all OS's have a browser, and the default one on Windows is IE.

    We are allowed to give our views and feedback in the hopes of improving IE and now Metro, and Windows RT as they are tightly related.

    If you recall IE6 didn't even have tabs… I doubt you'd complain now that we suggested that Microsoft add them?

    IE7 still hadn't fixed document.getElementById(id) are you upset that we ranted to Microsoft to fix this and they finally did in IE8?

    IE8's dev tools didn't have a Network traffic tab – are you upset we requested that Microsoft should add this?

    IE9 was missing so many CSS3 and HTML5 features that we again complained that they needed to be added – are you angry we helped push IE10 to be a better browser?

    Now we are on a new horizon… a new OS Desktop called Metro and an architecture called RT.  Neither is perfect in version 1 and we wouldn't expect them to be so we are providing feedback in hopes that we can greatly improve them!

    Are Metro IE10's tabs/location bar hard to find/use on a non-touchscreen device? Hell ya! they are a usability disaster!

    Is the Metro IE10 progress bar (the flying dots) actually anti-helpful? and not only show how slow IE10 is but make it appear slower than it is because the animation appears to stall!

    Is the marketing around the Windows RT sub-par… not clearly indicating that the "desktop" in RT mode is effectively useless?

    Yes the marketplace is growing – this is good and needed if Metro is to stay alive

    Are the apps great? – no many are lackluster but that will improve over time

    Does the split mode in Metro help out at all? not really unless you want to have your Twitter stream auto-scroll while you work on another app

    Does limiting the Metro mode screen to 1 display make sense when I dock my PC at work with a 3 screen setup? Heck no! In fact it is one of the main reasons why I suspect businesses will never use metro… I boot directly to the desktop so I can get stuff done

    You may think that Windows8 is the best thing since sliced bread but I'm sure even you can find at least 3 things that could use tweaking – go on, give it a try!

    Again I'm not a hater I love Windows 7 I just think that Windows 8 was a half baked idea and it needs to go back to the drawing board to totally flush out what they are trying to achieve.

  62. @Steve says:

    Metro IE? You mean "IE 10 Modern UI"? Yeah its a pretty nifty browser. But since its from Microsoft, you are naturally whining about it.

    You said: "Does the split mode in Metro help out at all? not really unless you want to have your Twitter stream auto-scroll while you work on another app"

    According to your bias and let me tell you, its lame! Snapping is a "feature" and you are saying Multitasking on UI (side-by-side) doesn't help! just because Microsoft introduced it first in tablet world? If Samsung would bring the same concept in the forth coming Android tablet, how would you feel about it? Would it be worthless too?

    Apparently, you haven't have experienced with lot of apps, besides Twitter:

    – You can open IE10 in snapped visual state and work on the other app running in filled visual state; when you click on the link it will open in IE10 in snapped mode.

    – You can use Bing app in snapped mode and IE10 alongside, search anything in Bing and get the result right on IE10 without switching back and forth.

    – You can use currency calculator (XE app) in snapped mode while making an invoice in word or web-based app.

    – You can use calculator[power]2 app to carry out simple, advanced, graphical, logical calculations in snapped mode while working on something along side.

    – You can snap audio player on side while working in filled mode. You can change track and advance seek bar position without switching.

    Similarly, you can use Skype video chat, messenger, manage your download status, live scorecards, news updates and the list goes on and on.

    Your argument, out of hate / rage / biasness about multi two apps at a time STINKS!!

  63. Steve says:

    @"@Steve" I'm sorry but after using the snap feature for a week I've found no use for it whatsoever its easier to swipe in from the side like on a PlayBook.

    I can't speak for Bing… like 97% of the population I'm much happier using Google.

    Don't get me wrong MS Troll Boy, I think multi-tasking is important… the iOS model of clickity click, double click, scroll, find, click, wait, un-sleep, use… sucks terribly.

    I just don't see the Metro solution is what multi-tasking should be like on Windows 8 / Metro.

    I was fully aware you can snap any 2 apps together… the reality is that in most cases there's no point because the touch screen optimized app for a full screen just doesn't scale to a 1/4 width screen.

    but thanks for Trolling… try using your own name for once so we can call you out properly.

  64. Steve says:

    @ "Guy who can't relax and even provide his own name vs. '@Steve' "

    Dude! Chill!

    Read this carefully…

    1.) I LOVE Windows! – I am not leaving the platform! – I am going to "upgrade" to Windows 8 however at the moment I'll be doing it reluctantly because of the Metro issues that I (and 1,000's of other people have mentioned) (read: NOT JUST ME!)

    2.) I am NOT an Android user/owner/developer… therefore I have no stake whatsoever in Google's future.  When I want to search I do use Google… but that's only because they are the company that perfected search.  Do I use Bing? of course not, no one does, any stats will show you that.

    3.) You can cry all you want that 100% of windows store apps "support" snapped mode, and they do… but "support" is a sliding scale that goes from helpful to not even useful.  Guess where most of the apps fall when in the minimal state?

    4.) I'm not just making this stuff up… I have a Surface RT device, I've used it, I've played games on it, I've tried writing documents on it, with/without the keyboard, yada, yada, yada….  it has some compelling features… but "perfected usability" is *CERTAINLY* not one of them!

    5.) Did I mention that I LOVE Windows?… yeah, I do!… what I take issue with is the *assumption* that since Microsoft made Windows 8 with Metro Mode… that therefore Metro is also good/great.  I don't see that yet.  I see poor usability/discover-ability.  I see a weak app market with 100's of sub par "hello world" applications.  I see naive consumers getting burnt buying an RT device thinking they are getting a true Windows Desktop experience when instead it is smoke and mirrors because you can't install *ANY APPLICATIONS* on it!

    but don't you dare call me a Hater…  as I said… I Love Windows… or at least Windows 7!