January Chat with the Internet Explorer team on Thursday


Join members of the Internet Explorer team for the first Expert Zone chat  of 2009 this Thursday, January 22nd at 10.00 PST/18.00 UTC. These chats are a great opportunity to have your questions answered by members of the IE product team. Thank you to all who have attended our previous chats! 

Other upcoming Expert Zone chat dates can be found here.  If you can’t join us live, the transcript for all chats are available here.

Sharon Cohen
Program Manager

Comments (37)

  1. Anonymous says:

    Why don’t you all discuss why Microsoft IE cannot get their ‘stuff’ together and become STANDARDS COMPLIANT????? Can the egos and get on board with those who CARE about equalizing User Experience on the Web. As a UI Engineer, IE continues to be the LOW point in my development work and that of my team. "S_ _ t" or get off the pot so the saying goes. I recently visited a blog of one of your team. The reason for your inability to create a USABLE product is now clear – your team is still in diapers!

  2. Przemek09 says:

    I am wondering if it can or is possible to learn about localization process of IE on the upcoming chat. I am particularily interested who localizes Polish IE and how the process of the localization is managed? Is it possible to contact Polish translators/localizers of IE? I need this data for my MBA thesis on localization of the Internet browsers. Thank you in advance for any help.    

  3. Anonymous says:

    Before the chat can you tell the folks that run the chat;

    1.) to remove the question limit (# of characters) as it is extremely annoying to type a long question only to have it be rejected.

    2.) to remove whatever thing they’ve added to BLOCK the ability to PASTE a question in the chat box

    As for the IE Team, can you please paste a block at the beginning of the chat with your default answer to the top 3 questions.

    a.) When is the next release (e.g. sometime this quarter… with RTM at some unknown date after that)

    b.) That SVG, W3C Event Model, CSS rounded corners and fixes to the IE Chrome will NOT be included in this^H^H^H^Hany release

    c.) What the plan is for IE Bug Tracking after IE8 goes RTM.  MSFT has pulled the wool over on us once with the IE7 release – if it goes away again (without a suitable permanent replacement) – the bug submitters will WALK too.

    d.) If the usability issues in IE (since IE7) will be fixed (e.g. the ability to drag a link say… anywhere useful… will that be fixed?

    Thanks

  4. Anonymous says:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26646919/#element(content/4/3/10)

    "Tim Berners-Lee, the British-born inventor of the World Wide Web"

    "Berners-Lee, director of the standard-setting World Wide Web Consortium, or W3C, said in an interview this week that Internet Explorer is falling behind other browsers in the way it handles an important graphics feature for Web pages."

    "A Web image that is encoded as a scalable vector graphic, or SVG, can be resized to fit the computer screen or zoomed into without becoming blocky and losing sharpness, as happens with images encoded as the more traditional "bitmaps." Maps are one popular use of SVG."

    "If you look around at browsers, you’ll find that most of them support scalable vector graphics," Berners-Lee said. "I’ll let you figure out which one has been slow in supporting SVG."

  5. Anonymous says:

    You know, I’m seriously surprised that those SVG comments hadn’t been marked as spam yet. It really looks like that it’s just two guys posting the same exact message multiple times for every news item.

    There are a few sites that could have real use of SVG, but all that spamming makes it look like this is just a DURRHURR IE SUPPORT ALL STANDARDS NAO nobrainer by 15 year old mozilla-fanboys. Seriously, cut it out.

  6. Anonymous says:

    @SVG, please stop quoting Berners-Lee, it’s getting very annoying to see the same quote on every blog entry. Borrowing another person’s quote and using that as your sole argument is amateurish, cowardly and lazy.

    If you’ve got nothing of value to say then don’t post anything.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Spam about SVG is no good, indeed, but SVG is good. And Arieta, I think you’re underestimating the popularity SVG would get if IE implemented it.

    Anyway, there’d be fewer people spamming about SVG if the IE Team clearly stated their position about it. Coming in IE9, 10, or not planned at all?

    The fact they don’t even try to support XHTML is clearly not a good sign, anyway.

  8. Anonymous says:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10144602-75.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0

    "European regulators notified Microsoft it believes the software giant is in violation of the region’s antitrust laws by bundling its Internet Explorer browser in Windows, the company said Friday."

  9. Anonymous says:

    implementing SVG support in IE8 will bring the ire of the european union on microsoft for stifling compettition from add-on authors…

  10. Anonymous says:

    I’d like SVG support as well. So long as people keep commenting on SVG support, the IE Team can’t say that no-one wants it.

  11. Anonymous says:

    Well why can’t someone from the IE team just explain why on earth they won’t support SVG or CANVAS. Fine if it is too much work to put into IE8 we understand. How about some information about what the team will be doing after after IE8 is released. With other browsers it is possible to view road maps and get some idea of future support.

    As for rounded corners I use them now and if my pages look a bit worse in IE too bad. I figure that if people have not worked out there are much better browsers out there, they won’t notice anyway.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Re: SVG

    SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/ are by far one of the coolest web technologies out there however they have suffered from the 800 lb Gorilla syndrome in that in the almost 8 (EIGHT!) years since it was a W3C Candidate Recomendation MSIE has failed to deliver a single line of code to support SVG.

    Eight Years! – Way to stifle innovation!

    I Love SVG.  I’ve built many apps that make use of it and provide a rich graphical interface for the web with zooming, panning, animation etc.

    Unfortunately IE users either have to download an unsupported addon (Adobe’s SVG 3x.), use a better browser, or suffer with no access.

    Since "IE" is the browser that many offices still use because they haven’t upgraded – it makes developing new web applications that take advantage of modern technologies a major pain.

    I’m hoping that IE8 is a great release but I’ve already made a decision to stop supporting IE6 and IE7 for new applications.  It will be a tough sell for some end users but I’ll likely just ship them an XULRunner wrapper that they can install. (e.g. a Firefox wrapper)

    I’m just tired of bending over backwards to support IE.  I’ve got better things to do with my time.

    will

  13. Anonymous says:

    William, it must be nice to have the luxury of working on applications that clearly do not matter.

  14. Anonymous says:

    "Well why can’t someone from the IE team just explain why on earth they won’t support SVG or CANVAS."

    @Mike: My guess is because they’d rather have developers use Silverlight.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Arieta, are you 15 years old? Google Maps uses SVG, Wikipedia uses SVG. You’re clearly too ignorant to understand anything. Go back to your room while the adults talk about the important stuff, ok? Children are not allowed in this conversation.

    PO, apply your own advice to yourself, "If you’ve got nothing of value to say then don’t post anything.". I’ll quote Tim Berners-Lee whenever I like, he has contributed to the Web more than you have ever done in your lifetime.

    As for Ted which everyone knows he’s an EPIC FAIL, it must be nice to have the luxury of talking nonsense and being the generally useless IE cheerleader troll here.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Sorry for posting again, but:

    100/100 on:

    http://acid3.acidtests.org/

    & animated PNG pics PLEASE…

  17. zl666 says:

    Since IE has the capability to save passwords, how about an option to view the password list and delete passwords individually rather than all at once? It would be very helpful. Also, allow the user to view the passwords saved, provided that the user enter a master password. This would make it much more user friendly.

  18. JAB Creations says:

    Acid 3 – 100% on this test doesn’t matter right now compared to other things.

    SVG – IE9, really…I mean ca’mon people, enough shouting got us CSS 2.1 so I’m sure this is pretty high up on the to-do list. Look at the politics any way (Adobe, Europe, etc). If SVG doesn’t make IE9 {fail();} else {succeed();} and any one not busy ranting knows Microsoft would rather invest money in the development of native SVG support then deal with political penalties that could cost much more.

    XHTML – If you frequent the blog as much as I do you’ll have read in a chat dialogue posted that application/xhtml+xml would be implemented after IE’s CSS render was cleaned up. Well take a look at IE8’s CSS 2.1 progress, does it seem cleaned up on sites with well coded CSS? I certainly think so! If this doesn’t make IE9 {fail();} else {succeed();}. Frankly I don’t imagine with application/xml support already existing in IE since 5.0 that this would be too troublesome at this point to implement.

    DOM – I’ve been working on an AJAX chat room and frankly while IE8’s JScript engine hasn’t improved dramatically (as say the CSS rendering) there have been significant *enough* changes to warrant at least modest credit to the IE team on this front…but this needs minimally modest improvement in IE9 regardless. If I can’t build my scripts like a basic chat room in IE9 like I am with Gecko (before going to fix breaks in IE){fail();} else {succeed();} Since the majority of energy being made to support standards and ease the jobs of web designers (and web developers outsourced to do web design) was put in to CSS in IE8 why wouldn’t JScript be second to bat for further improvements in IE9?

    If you want deeper insight in to how plausible IE9’s success will be then consider the amount of work completed versus needed to finish or start and finish implementing those critical standards IE needs. How many test cases has the IE team submitted to the W3C in regards to CSS 2.1?

    IE8 is more of a stepping stone then I anticipated towards what we need. IE8 is on it’s own merits a very respectable improvement over IE7 IMHO. As far as I’m concerned unless a page has SVG or is served as application/xhtml+xml IE8 renders no differently then Opera to the common person. With relatively the same amount of effort IE9 with critical CSS3 selectors and properties (at least the most important selectors, multi-column, multi-background, border-radius, resize support) in addition to the improvements I listed about the DOM, SVG, and XHTML, IE9 could tie or even potentially surpass all the other browsers. The only thing that would keep me from jumping boat from Firefox at that point would be the lack of a free ad-blocker and a customizable GUI. Though I am using IE8 a lot with the JavaScript debugger which I have come to enjoy a lot and have found Firebug to be a horrible slow down in Firefox (I use Chris Pederick’s Web Developer toolbar instead any way). I don’t tell people to use Firefox because it’s not built by Microsoft, I tell them to do so because it’s a better browser. I’ll do the same when I think IE has surpassed Firefox and frankly as much as I love Firefox if you’re following even some of the bugs I am at Bugzilla you’ll certainly have noticed that there are many bad decisions being made such as implementing extensions as built in features at the expense of GUI customizability and blocking regressions from being fixed until lame resource intensive yet completely useless GUI animations are implemented.

    Besides…most of us love Firefox right? Both the 3.1 and 3.2 nightly builds aren’t passing Acid3 and I hear very few complaints about Firefox. You can’t know what you want before you realize what you need.

    – John

  19. Anonymous says:

    JAB Creations/John: might not matter that much to you…

    And for your info: i use FF minefield (3.2 nighly) & Opera 10 when developing.

    And Yes, i complain at FF 3.2 too for not passing the Acid 3 test, but still it’s waaay better then current IE8 build.

    Besides that FF has a poor js engine.

    So you might read between the lines that i more & more go over to using/recommending Opera 10 as it’s a superior browser IMHO

  20. Anonymous says:

    Looking forward to it! Thank you!

  21. Anonymous says:

    username with at sign(asperand, @) will break the links in History, for both IE7 and 8, please fix

  22. Anonymous says:

    @SVG : why do you complain ?

    SVG in IE existed for years with an Adobe plugin. Now, blame Adobe for dropping support for their plugin.

  23. Anonymous says:

    @Oliver – don’t blame Adobe! They thought MSFT were going to pick up the ball and do it natively.  Why would they continue development if it was going to be in the browser by default?

    Unfortunately the MSIE team failed on this one.

  24. Anonymous says:

    @domenic, that’s a silly conclusion to jump to.  The reality is that Adobe realized there was little reason for them to write code for free, when they have proprietary products they actually make money from (Flash).

    @neXur, Opera was once a fine specialty browser.  FF/Chrome/Safari are all now using next-gen JS engines which soundly trounce Opera’s engine, and it’s only going to get worse.

  25. Anonymous says:

    @jab, actually no, the IE team simply said that CSS2.1 was a higher priority than XHTML support.  That doesn’t mean that they’re going to invest in xhtml next.  The reality (as shown by HTML5) is that XHTML has a lot of limitations that make it of dubious importance.

    The idea that there might be "political penalties" for not supporting SVG shows a distinct lack of understanding of the world’s legal systems, and a clear misunderstanding of the work of standards bodies.

    The IE8 JS engine is something like 100x faster for some things than the IE7 engine, and the score on the general case (e.g. SunSpider benchmark) is ~5x faster.  That’s nothing to sneeze at.

  26. Anonymous says:

    @Dan – IE8 might well be 5x faster at JavaScript but how much of that is directly related to fixing the Array() element to work as a List instead of a HashTable?

    Then again, how much slower is IE going to be when it starts supporting foreach() type methods properly?

  27. Anonymous says:

    Dear SVG;

    Only a child would use an argument like "get out kid, adults are talking".

  28. Anonymous says:

    @JAB Creations – I would much rather see HTML 5 support in IE 9 than XHTML support. Why would you want to serve documents as XHTML anyway? Who wants to maintain apps that choke on one markup error? One of the HTML 5 spec priorities is standardized error handling.

  29. sonicdoommario says:

    Whenever I click on one of these links to join the chat, it says the page can’t be found.

    I was looking forward to joining this chat…

  30. Anonymous says:

    Yeah, the chat server died at about 10:52 PST/ 13:52 EST.

    Last question answered was:

    JohnHrv [MSFT] (Expert)[13:52]:

    Q: [45] (5) My first non-JS question is about freezing, too : If a page freezes, will we be able to go to another tab in IE 8 ? It’s very frustating otherly… Note that when you’ve the problem, you can go out to buy a donut to make waiting easier OPEN-MOUTHED SMILEY 😀

    A: this is another good architectural change that would improve reliability. thanks for the suggestion!

  31. train amsterdam says:

    Thanks for the informative chat!

  32. Anonymous says:

    Somebody asked about SVG support during the chat yesterday, and received the answer, which has been given previously I believe, that it is a popular request and something that is under consideration for later IE versions. You shouldn’t underestimate the difficulty of providing an SVG implementation. The full spec is extremely large (the PDF version runs to over 700 pages). I don’t believe any browser or plugin has yet implemented it in its entirety (although some are close).

    Given the level of effort involved versus their development capacity, the IE team have to prioritise those features they feel will be of the greatest benefit to the most people. For IE 8 they clearly decided, and I would support them, that full CSS 2.1 support was of more importance than SVG. As for IE 9, I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

  33. Anonymous says:

    MY INTERNET EXPLORER DID NOT WORK, IT IS NOT OPENING AND WHEN I TRIED EVERY WAY IT GIVES A MESSAGE "ORDINAL NOT FOUND" AND (ORDINAL 410 COULD NOT BE LOCATED IN THE DYNAMIC LINK LIBRARY) PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WOULD I DO?

  34. Anonymous says:

    MY INTERNET EXPLORER DID NOT WORK, IT IS NOT OPENING AND WHEN I TRIED EVERY WAY IT GIVES A MESSAGE "ORDINAL NOT FOUND" AND (ORDINAL 410 COULD NOT BE LOCATED IN THE DYNAMIC LINK LIBRARY) PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WOULD I DO?

  35. Anonymous says:

    MY INTERNET EXPLORER DID NOT WORK, IT IS NOT OPENING AND WHEN I TRIED EVERY WAY IT GIVES A MESSAGE "ORDINAL NOT FOUND" AND (ORDINAL 410 COULD NOT BE LOCATED IN THE DYNAMIC LINK LIBRARY) PLEASE TELL ME WHAT WOULD I DO?

  36. Anonymous says:

    @JonR – yes SVG is quite involved and not a super easy thing to implement. However it has been done by many so it isn’t that hard.

    What drives us nuts is that we’ve been requesting this the day IE7 was announced as being developed. (e.g. starting development)

    The canned answer of: "This is something we are investigating for a future release / we are focusing on other priorities ATM / Thanks for the suggestion" is what is annoying.

    I think my all time favorite is when the IE Team responds with "we don’t see many sites using ‘xyx’ technology" as the reason why they don’t plan for IE to support ‘xyz’ (insert whatever technology you want for ‘xyz’)

    Which is a total catch 22.  If IE doesn’t support ‘xyz’, we don’t publish production code using ‘xyz’ because 50% of our users won’t be able to use our sites/apps.

    It doesn’t mean the technology is not good, or not growing, it means that once again IE is

    Holding Back The Web™

    As soon as IE supports ‘xyz’ the growth of sites using it will explode.