November Chat with the IE Team on Thursday


Join members of the Internet Explorer team for the last  Expert Zone chat  of 2008 this Thursday, November 13th at 10.00 PST/18.00 UTC. These chats are a great opportunity to have your questions answered by members of the IE product team.

Thank you to all who have attended the chats through the year! Look for us to start these chats up again in January 2009. If you can’t join us online, all chat transcripts are published here.

Kristen Kibble
Program Manager

P.S. Upcoming IE chat dates are posted here.

Edit: Refreshed the links in the post and adjusted the UTC time.

Comments (102)

  1. Fearghal Canning says:

    Love the new features in IE8. Runs really well on my PC with one exception, Favourites.  As soon as i click on the Favourites icon IE quits.  Every time without fail it quits.  I keep my bookmarks in stickies to drop into IE so there’s always a workaround….

  2. Vasil Dinkov says:

    I have one question that I am afraid I will most probably not be able to ask on the chat:

    Do you plan any more updates of Trident before releasing IE8.0 final or are we getting the final version of Trident (that will ship with IE8 final) in beta2?

    Thanks!

  3. SamYeager says:

    Why are your links pointing to an OWA login screen?

  4. Dan says:

    Luckily I can make this Thursday but normally I can’t.  Can you change the day/time up a bit so that those of us that are not free at this time every month have a chance to participate?

    thanks.

  5. Dan says:

    Sam is right, your links are messed up.

  6. timothy says:

    Note to self: Never make a blog posting before going to bed.  You’ll wake up in the morning kicking yourself when you realize what happened all night.

    Thanks for the links into Microsoft OWA dogfood!  Good to see that internal testing of some MS products is going on.

  7. Richard Fink says:

    Can’t be there this time, unfortunately.

    Give us a Beta3! Or an RC1!

  8. barney says:

    oops! nice links!

    I’m looking forward to the chat.  Hopefully there will be some open transparency this time around in terms of the release roadmap!

    All we want to know is WHAT the planned releases are, we don’t care WHEN and we aren’t holding you to it, but we NEED to know the minimum release plan.

    Will there be the expected Beta 3?

    Will there be at least one RC?

    Developing against IE8 can not start UNTIL we know this information.

    We need to know if the bugs in IE8 will be there in the final and thus we need to start coding around them (where workarounds are even available) or whether the current bugs have any chance of being fixed before the RTM.

  9. Brez says:

    I’m reading the transcript and notice that i have the same issue on one question that posted below. the issue happens in old @msn.com address but not sure about @live.com address.

    Q: Sometimes when I log on to Windows live account like hotmail or password and I log out but it remain login even though I clcik logout what is the problem?

    A: Are you seeing this problem consistently with IE8 Beta2? Do you have multipe tabs, windows opened? I am unable to reproduce it on my machine. I recommend clearing your history and trying again.

  10. Olivier says:

    @Brez : yeah, this answer makes me laugh (I also had the same bug), they were acting as if it wasn’t a known bug, but the problem was already mentionned here : http://support.microsoft.com/kb/949787/en-us

    :-)

    I hope there will be a beta3 before a RC, because for me beta2 was unusable :-(

  11. rase says:

    beta 2 is unusable. I would call this alpha 2 and not beta 2. This is ridiculous.

  12. bcortez says:

    Can someone please fix the links to the OWA server and link to the actual chat registration area? I need to attend these IE8 chat sessions regularly for business purposes (we are considering adding support for IE8 in the next version of our product).

    Thanks.

  13. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Vasil Dinkov, @Barney: The next public release will include updates and bugfixes to Trident as well as the rest of IE.

    @Fearghal Canning: IE crashes when you click on the Favorites button are almost exclusively caused by buggy addons, particularly the "Drive Letter Access" addon.  You can verify this by running in No Add-ons mode (and then disabling buggy extensions).  See http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/troubleshoot.asp#crash for info.

  14. bcortez says:

    For those wondering, I dug around Microsoft’s site and found it myself. Here’s the real link to the Expert Zone Chat for Thursday. From here you can add it to your Outlook calendar, or sign into the chat at that time.

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx

  15. Techyatlast says:

    When is IE8 going to be released, enough with all these BETAS release it already

  16. testing says:

    testing, is commenting working again?

  17. Roger says:

    @Techyatlast – speak for yourself.  I am eager for another beta since the current code is not ready for market.  I would rather wait another 3-6 months to get a solid release than release some half-baked garbage that as a web developer I’ll personally have to support for the next decade+.

    I’m sure if MSFT published a roadmap, we wouldn’t have all this confusion! However that would take some sort of effort and initiative that has yet to see the light of day.

  18. holdup says:

    can we ever get standalone installs? at least of 8?

  19. Brez says:

    I hate to see IE 8 beta 2 or 3 lasting forever because of brand new OS coming next year.

  20. Matthias Walther says:

    IE8 Beta2 constantly crashes (not only on my Machine) after using a Java-applet. This is one of its most annoying bugs for me.

  21. Matthias Walther says:

    When pasting something in the address-bar, IE8 Beta2 crashes instantly (iexplore.exe application error).

  22. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Matthias: IE8 Beta-2 had a bug whereby if you had disabled autocomplete, pasting in the address bar would crash.  This has since been fixed.  The workaround for Beta-2 is to enable autocomplete.

    With regard to your Java applet issue: Please provide a repro URL, and information on your Java VM version.

    Thanks!

  23. erictee says:

    Suggestion: Why not change the "Add to Favourite Bar" button into Instant Bookmark button just like Firefox and Chrome?

  24. When is Beta 3 says:

    When is Beta 3 being released?

    Will it be before tomorrows chat?

  25. Jan says:

    I’m reading the transcript and notice that i have the same issue on one question that posted below. the issue happens in old @msn.com address but not sure about @live.com address.

    Q: Sometimes when I log on to Windows live account like hotmail or password and I log out but it remain login even though I clcik logout what is the problem?

    A: Are you seeing this problem consistently with IE8 Beta2? Do you have multipe tabs, windows opened? I am unable to reproduce it on my machine. I recommend clearing your history and trying again.

    >>> I had the same issue with GMail, I really hope this will be fixed in the final release!!

  26. Nathan Zaugg says:

    After reading an article in Redmond Magazine I decided to write this blog post.  Let’s just say I’m not all that impressed with IE8 and hope for a change in direction.

    http://interactiveasp.net/blogs/natesstuff/archive/2008/11/12/microsoft-please-do-not-release-ie8.aspx

  27. Ted says:

    Nathan, the thing about becoming a pundit is that you have to be careful not to say things that reveal that you’re clueless.

    For example, "Write the browser in managed code for performance" "Get fully standards compliant (this doesn’t seem that difficult)"

    Other times, one wonders whether you’ve even tried IE8: "Update the "Find" dialog!" "Allow more than 2 concurrent downloads per domain" "Allow the history to be quickly searched."

  28. Testman says:

    Dear IE team,

    Here are my question about the IE8 latests beta

    1- Any plan to add progressive JPEG support in the next beta ?

    See for instance a progressive jpeg like

    http://tralvex.com/pub/cars/atos-all.jpg

    on any user-agent but IE it load progressivelly ;-) But on IE, it displays only at the end. This is a very old IE issue but annoying one. If you are surfing on huge image, you do understand why progressive JPEG is required.

    2- Any plan for standalone mode support ?

  29. Nolan says:

    Colored "Tab Group" upon middle click of link from favorite bar.  I love tab grouping, I also love my news sites that have RSS up in the favorite bar so i can easily peruse the headlines.  Now make it so when I middle click on the headlines, it puts them into the same tab group.

    Also, GMAIL was crashing and freezing a bunch for a week, but I can’t reproduce it now.

  30. @Fearghal – I had the same problem. Like ErikLaw says, it is probably a problem with an add-on.  In my case, it was with the Sonic Solutions Drive Letter Access add-on.  Disabling the add-on resolved the problem for me.

    https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=365737

  31. sonicdoommario says:

    Is it me or is the font in this blog different? If so, it’s better than what’s used in the past.

  32. george says:

    @sonicdoommario – yeah the font is different.  it is one of those new fonts with anti-aliasing built in so that it looks better when Clear Type is turned on. But thats a matter of opinion, because many users hate Clear Type and turn it off as soon as they install Windows.

    I’m in that group.  I like my normal and bold fonts to be distinguishable from 3-4feet away.  With ClearType (aka FuzzyType) I can’t make that distinction from anything greater than about 5inches.

    If the folks that run this blog do switch the fonts for posting I will be setting up a greasemonkey script to override the font that day.

  33. Det says:

    Ah the MS Trolling Ted strikes again.

    I was worried that you might have got lost in the Interwebs.

    Glad to see you are back, cluelessly supporting all things Microsoft without any awareness of better tools, technologies or standards that the rest of the world is working with.

    As always, thanks for the laughs.

  34. Simon says:

    @Ted the Epic Fail – You may have read the article, and pulled some choice links from it but you missed the point.

    IE8 is not on target to be the best browser ever, its on target to be a slightly better, still unpolished, cluster duck of mish-mashed technology.

    We keep asking for some simple things that MSFT keeps pushing out.

    1.) Fix the inconsistencies in the UI chrome (we’d love to see the UI fixed, but we’ll be quite happy if it actually looked like it was all part of the same application)

    2.) Commit to SVG. Being wishy-washy doesn’t help any of us.  Either state that it will be in IE9, or state that you are not doing it.  Get it over with, ambiguity is ticking us off.

    3.) Commit to standard DOM events.

    4.) Provide a roadmap so we have some clue what direction you are going in, besides the bandaid-software approach of lets not fix the browser, lets just stick on bits of activites, slices, accelerators, etc. on as bandaids to keep people interested.

  35. net says:

    I really would like to see two features in IE:

    1) An integrated download manager with the resume/pause options

    2)

  36. net says:

    I really would like to see three features in IE:

    1) Integrated download manager with the resume/pause options

    2) "Auto-kill" no longer used IE processes: I mean, I noticed that in IE8 every tab is a separated process (and so that makes each tab pretty independent one another, globally makes the application more stable and in the future it will also make full use of the power of multi-core processors, and that’s really great). So when you open a new tab, IE creates a new iexplore.exe process for it. BUT when you close a tab, the related process is NOT killed untill you close the whole IE. This means that after some minutes of web browsing you do have plenty of IE processes running, which can be pretty RAM memory consuming.

    I know IE behaves this way by design, probably to keep the web content cached and to speed up the closed tab reopening and the moving backward and forward among visited sites actions. Anyway, it would be really nice if users could choose this behaviour.

    3) More customizable UI: I mean it would be nice if users could hide some objects, such as the search box for example, and could move each object to almost any point of the toolbars (for example it would be great to have the possibility to move the favorite links from the favorites toolbar to some other place (for example in place of the search box) in order to not waste space in the UI and to have more spare space for web page viewing).

    This type of customization can be done in other browsers such as Firefox.

    Thanks.

  37. Stifu says:

    2) A form submission confirmation pop-up? :p

  38. net says:

    LOL, sorry, my post got posted before I had finished writing…I pressed the Enter key by mistake while the comment box was unfocused. Just ignore it and read the complete one just after it. :P

  39. Mitch 74 says:

    @Det: I’m not sure Ted is clueless: he surely knows quite a bit.

    He’s merely very strongly set in his opinions.

    IE 8 does improve several things quite a lot, if only by removing hasLayout, but stuff like a better process separation is good to take too; its Firebug clone is also a very nice tool to have (if only because it helps in understanding what makes IE tick: most of the time IE 6/7 made me lose was in hunting down what Firefox/Opera/Konqueror/Safari could do that IE couldn’t quite get).

    Now at least when my perfectly valid page that works in all other browsers crashes IE, I soon know why.

    Personally, I still fault it for:

    – antique DOM support

    – slow Jscript

    – frozen UI (I’m sorry, but there are ways to keep the URL bar visible and still allow it to be resized/moved)

    – no SVG support (who cares about VML? Not even MS)

    – no way to adapt page’s content on browsers capability, due to the http header that says that IE can "read" */* (which is, obviously, completely wrong)

  40. promovare says:

    very nice the new features in IE8 :)

  41. something I hope you can help me with.  About a month ago I was suddenly unable to open Internet Explorer.  When  click on the icons it tries to open and then comes up with error

    "the application has requested the runtime to terminate in an unusual way.  please contact support"

    I have tried to reinstall IE7 from microsoft updates as is a recommendation but this does not change anything.  Can only browse with mozilla firefox.

    Any suggestions??????

  42. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @paulwilliams: Chances are good that this is due to a buggy addon.  Please see http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/troubleshoot.asp#crash

    @Stifu: If you’d like, you can change your security options to pop a prompt on every form submission.  It’s pretty annoying, but you can do it if you’d like.

    @net: There are issues in earlier builds whereby zombie processes are left around.  By design, processes are kept around for a short time to handle new tabs (this improves performance rather than detracts from it), but they will all go away when the IE frame is closed, as you noticed.

    In IE8, you can resize the search box, or hide it altogether if you’d like; see http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/tweaks.asp

  43. net says:

    Thank you for replying.

    That’s good then.

  44. Nathan Zaugg says:

    @Ted: I really wouldn’t describe myself as a pundit. I really like Microsoft!  The point of my blog post was to hopefully spur a change of thinking.  

    Also I do believe managed code would be a great benefit.  Besides bringing an end to countless security holes managed code has a very distinct memory allocation advantage which is very important with Multimedia.

    In regards to the specific comment about wither I’ve even tried IE8 — I ran the thing for about six weeks and simply had to get rid of it. In order for many websites to work I had to put it in IE7 mode, it didn’t seem more standards compliant, it still had the two files per domain download limit and there was nothing "special" about it. It was all very unexciting!

  45. bojak says:

    i keep getting wrong password once i login it ask for a user name i type that in but then it ask for a password and im like what the heck (im not talking about the first login where u put ur email and password at)

  46. bojak says:

    i keep getting wrong password once i login it ask for a user name i type that in but then it ask for a password and im like what the heck (im not talking about the first login where u put ur email and password at)

  47. Nostradamus says:

    Despite the chat not actually having taken place yet, I’ve managed to get my hands on the transcript already.

    ————————

    Q. Will there be a beta 3 ?

    A. Thanks for the question! Unfortunately we can’t comment on future plans at this time.

    Q. When is the final release of IE8 planned for ?

    A. We can’t comment on that at this time.

    Q. What are the plans for SVG/opacity support ?

    A. We can’t comment on that at this time.

    Q. Will IE9 pass Acid 3 ? Will the next beta/final release of IE8 improve on the current score ?

    A. We can’t comment on future releases at this time.

    Q. When will the UI chrome be customizable again ?

    A. Thanks for the suggestion!

    ————————

    Ok, well I hope the real answers are much more substantial, but sadly I fear they will be basically the same.

  48. Ted says:

    @Nathan, please look up the definition of "pundit."

    IE8 has supported 6 connections per server since Beta-1.  The "Find dialog" was replaced by the "Find bar", and the address bar allows instant search of your history.  Hence, it’s hard to believe that you’ve actually even used the program you’re writing about.

    I don’t know what "distinct memory allocation advantage" you’re smoking, but native code can obviously do anything managed code can (since the managed platform is obviously written in native).

  49. Ted says:

    @Nostradamus, your predictions are punditry.  Here;s my guess:

    Q. Will there be a beta 3 ?

    A. We’re working hard on IE8 and will have news soon.  Keep an eye on the blog.

    Q. When is the final release of IE8 planned for ?

    A. When it is done.

    Q. What are the plans for SVG/opacity support ?

    A. IE8 will not support SVG natively, as noted in prior chats.  

    Opacity is already supported, as documented a million times.

    Q. Will IE9 pass Acid 3 ? Will the next beta/final release of IE8 improve on the current score ?

    A. The so-called "ACID" benchmark is written by a product competitive to IE and does not represent real-world concerns of web developers.  It contains tests against incomplete standards, which could cause more problems than it’s worth.

    IE9 planning has not started, but the IE team remains focused on addressing the important concerns of web developers and designers.

    Q. When will the UI chrome be customizable again ?

    A. It already is.

  50. steve_web says:

    hehe, @Nostradamus , + @Ted:

    ACTUAL answers from the chat:

    =============================

    (note your guesses were pretty spot on)

    Q. Will there be a beta 3 ?

    A.1 We haven’t announced the next public milestone for IE8. Are schedule is driven by build quality which we use feedback from the community to help drive.

    A.2 A typical release cycle includes beta and RC milestones prior to a RTM release.

    (thus no confirmation on Beta 3, but confirmation on an RC)

    Q. When is the final release of IE8 planned for ?

    A. We have not announced the next public milestone for IE8. We really are evaluating build quality to drive our product release.

    Q. What are the plans for SVG/opacity support ?

    A. Questions asked, NO ANSWER – well, not entirely true. Question was asked about the Z-Index bug with opacity but no acknowledgement of the bug was made, nor an answer to if it is/will be fixed.

    Q. Will IE9 pass Acid 3 ? Will the next beta/final release of IE8 improve on the current score ?

    A.) I don’t think any IE9 questions were asked (directly)

    Q. When will the UI chrome be customizable again ?

    A. A: The user interface is pretty much locked down at this point and don’t expect to make many changes, but more UI customizability is something we will definitely be discussing during IE Next planning. Thanks!

  51. Vasil Dinkov says:

    @EricLaw [MSFT]

    Thank you for the answer and for your time!

  52. Fduch says:

    >EricLaw [MSFT]:

    >@Fduch: I assume you’ve tried running IE without addons to eliminate those as a source of problems?

    Yes, I tried running IE8 without addons and it still crashes. It was obvious since the culprit module is mshtml.dll.

    http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3000/ie8crashmh7.png

  53. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    The failing module can be misleading, because if an addon hands a bad point to MSHTML, it’s MSHTML that crashes, not the add-on.

    In Beta-2, there were quite a few reliability problems in the new standards mode codepaths; many of them could be resolved by using the compatibility view feature.  (And, yes, we’re hard at work at fixing the reliability issues identified in the beta 2 build.)

  54. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    Ahem.  That should be "pointer", not "point"… :-)

  55. Brez says:

    can you add a "back button for tabs" i just hate it when i have 10 tabs open and when i switch to another tab and i want to get back to the previous tab i have to look for it. A back button specially for tabs should be added.

  56. Jan says:

    Some suggestions for IE 8 beta:

    Please remove the red/pink color as tab grouping color; it’s ugly and confusing (red means danger).

    Please DO NOT collapse the favourites menu when an item is deleted using right click delete. It makes it very difficult to quickly manage your favourites!

  57. Jan says:

    To add to my previous comment:

    I’ve watched some videos on Windows 7 and what they say there is ‘Solve distractions’. i.e. don’t let users be distracted by the user interface (look at the work they have done on windows explorer).

    THe tab colours are just too bright so that these distract. I think the colors should be much softer so they don’t distract from the content.

  58. Jan says:

    Also some other long time annoyances:

    Please remove the yellow bar for file downloads. The bar in this case is VERY annoying because when a user clicks a download, he really wants to download that file. It just disturbs my workflow.

    Also solve the mixed content warning, DO NOT prompt for it, that is just annoying!

  59. Brez says:

    Is the next version coming out this month?

  60. Olivier says:

    @Jan : to manage your favorites, there was a "organize your favorites" in IE7’s favorites menu, I guess it’s still there in IE8, no ? It should fix your problem.

    @Brez : if you read the yesterday chat transcript, you’ll see that we don’t know when will be the next release :(

    I really need a beta3 to tryout because beta2 was just crashing too much, so at the moment I can only use IE7.

  61. Jan says:

    @Oliver:

    Yes, I know about that. But what is the reason that the favourites menu needs to collapse when you right click and select delete. I find this an easy way to organize my favourites without opening a seperate window. Collapsing is just silly.

  62. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Jan: Every menu I can think of in Windows collapses when you click or right-click an item.  To delete multiple items, either use Organize Favorites, or simply click the Favorites star icon and use the sidebar.

    To remove the file download gold bar, click Tools / Internet Options / Security / Internet Zone / Custom and move "Automatic prompting for file downloads" to Enable.  Please note, IE already bypasses the goldbar for "direct" file downloads where you click a link; cases where you see the goldbar are where sites are doing something "complicated" (like first navigating to another page) before triggering the download.  That makes it appear that the download might not have been user-initiated.

    Similarly for the mixed-content prompt, you can use the security options to block all mixed content.  You then will no longer see a prompt for it, and your secure pages will remain secure.  There’s little else the browser can do about it; it’s a web application security hole, so web developers have to fix the problem.  (//blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/04/20/410240.aspx)

    Thanks for the feedback on the red/pink tab color; we’ve heard this quite a bit.

    @Brez: Click Tools / Internet Options / Advanced / "Use most recent order when switching tabs."  Then, the CTRL+TAB hotkey will act as a "back" button for switching tabs.

  63. Jan says:

    @EricLaw:

    Thanks for the response. I really hope the red/pink color will be removed and the colors be more subtile.

    I know about these settings, thanks anyway. I was just arguing for the IE defaults. Page initiated downloads are very wide spread, it’s a major annoyance for the default user to click through the gold bar. And does it really prevent the installation of malicious software, or is it just an annoyance that people have to click through (most sites describe how to click through the gold bar anyway).

    Relating to the mixed content dialog, I would argue that IE should default to disable. I believe this was IE’s intention for IE 7, but you changed it because it would cause incompatability with so many websites (?) Now for IE 8, websites are still not secure enough so you keep the prompt? More dialogs do not necessarily increase safety (not at all actually). People just click ok, ok, ok.. Please make a choice for enable or disable and do not defer the choice to the end user that does not know how to handle this and is just annoyed by the dialogs.

    I would like IE, for the next version, to look at eliminating ALL pop up dialogs. I believe FF has done something in that area (like the ‘prompt’ for storing passwords).

  64. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Jan: I think you’re missing the point.  The idea of the goldbar isn’t that users won’t know how to click through it and thus be protected: the idea is that the goldbar prevents inadvertent initiation of a download without the user’s permission.  Yes, this is an important security feature, which is why it was created to begin with.  

    Unfortunately, we cannot simply block mixed content by default, for the same reasons explained in IE7 Beta 3.  Specifically, there are some scenarios where it’s basically impossible for a web application to behave in the "ideal" way.  For instance, when a user is editing HTML (like a blog post) on a secure page, the secure page has no control over whether or not the user adds a non-secure image or other tag to the markup.  While you could argue that IE should just break the user-experience in this scenario, we know that users blame the browser (and uninstall it) when their pages don’t work as they’d like.

    (Some other browsers have eliminated the mixed content prompt by simply allowing insecure content in secure pages.  That’s dangerous.)

  65. Daniel says:

    @Eric, since you (Microsoft) are not open on when the next public release will happen – can you tell, when you’re going to announce when the next public release will happen?

  66. Jan says:

    @ EricLaw:

    My point basically comes down to all the user prompt / gold bars that come with making IE more secure. These are a major annoyance to the end user. In the past, if I would go to the Gmail login page, EVERY TIME I would get a mixed content prompt because one of the buttons on the Gmail page caused it to be mixed (annoying – I didn’t know about that setting then). If I go to a page that I expect to prompt me my download and a gold bar appears, I have to do two clicks to enable the download and wait for a page reload and again for the prompt (annoying).

    Things like the mixed content prompt could be implemented in a much more user friendly way (any prompt is an annoyance). IE could decide to always default to the most secure option (e.g. mixed content disabled). Then show a simple button somewhere on the GUI to "enable mixed content" (with one click of the mouse). The same hold for blocking prompted downloads (the download should activate with a single mouse click without any further delay).

    Prompt are always an annoyance and nobody reads them really, they just click yes (they don’t add security).

  67. Brez says:

    IE 8 was slowing down so i check taskmanager process and IE 8 memory usage 245,836k

  68. Geld lenen says:

    I keep getting "Wrong password" when i’m login in.. can anybody help me maybe?

    Password is ok btw

  69. IE6 MUST DIE says:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx

    WOW, JUST WOW. When you think you finally getting rid of IE6, Microsoft releases it on Windows Mobile.

    So much for the Interoperability Principles BS.

  70. @IE6 MUST DIE,

    I entirely agree with you that IE 6 should die…but

    Are you sure, absolutely sure that Internet Explorer Mobile 6 is using the same rendering engine that IE 6 is using?

    When using that Windows Mobile 6.1.4 Emulator Images…

    One test is to query some decisive properties like document.documentMode on a standards compliant webpage using a strict DTD. Another is to use conditional comments.

    Another (less reliable) is to query the user agent string.

    Regards, Gérard

  71. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    The rendering engine recently released for Windows Mobile is indeed similar to the desktop engine released with IE6 on XPSP2.  Obviously, some changes were made to handle the mobile platform, and the engine includes the bugfixes which have been made to the code over the years.  Furthermore, Mobile IE6 includes the latest Javascript engine (5.7) and a variety of other features and fixes.

    A good place for further discussion on Mobile IE is over on their blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx

  72. morgan says:

    I realize that native SVG in IE8 is just not happening, but in IE8, the performance of SVG via Adobe’s plugin is pathetically slow.

    I’m experiencing render speeds that are at least 2x as slow as in IE6 or IE7, even when loaded as static files (not generated) from the localhost.

    Please advise if this is being looked into?

  73. are you serious says:

    IE6 for mobile devices? are you serious?

    There is no way I’m designing for Mobile IE until it is AT LEAST even with IE8 in terms of standards support, no way at all.

    It was just 2 months ago we finally told all our customers that IE6 was no longer supported.  Those 15% of our users still on IE6 either upgraded to IE7, or moved to Safari or Firefox.

    There is no way on earth we are going back to support IE6, ever, on any platform.

    We will expand beyond the iPhone for mobile support shortly, but Mobile IE will not make the cut until it is based on IE8 or better.

  74. Jill H. says:

    @Morgan – I too have noted that SVG rendering in IE8 is *EXTREMELY* slow.  Slow to the point of being unusable.

    I’ve actually wondered if this is "By Design" to try and force a move to Silverlight.

    Was there any comment about the stability of SVG in IE8 during the IE Team chat?

    I have several SVGs that load *INSTANTANEOUSLY* in Firefox, Safari, and Google Chrome, that take 12 to 13 SECONDS to load in IE8.

    This is *NOT* an acceptable performance at all.  In my scenario a user clicks on 2-3 links within the SVG to "zoom in" on a specific location in an IT map. Therefore with page loads, it takes:

    3 Seconds for Firefox/Safari users

    3 Seconds for IE6/IE7 users

    39 Seconds for IE8 users

    If I understand performance stats correctly, using IE8 causes the application usage to:

    Run 1,000% SLOWER in IE8.

    Please tell me that someone on the MSFT IE Team is actively looking into this and is hard at work on a solution.

    Thank you,

    Jill H.

  75. Brez says:

    It seem that the longer i use IE 8 beta 2 the slower it gets.

  76. Ted says:

    Jill, don’t be ridiculous.  The plugin is Adobe’s, not Microsoft’s.  If Microsoft tried to monkey with it, it would be insta-lawsuit.

    As it stands, not supporting SVG by default is plenty to make a push for silverlight, especially since the Adobe plugin is no longer supported by Adobe.

  77. steve_web says:

    @Ted/Jill – OMG! what happened there?  I just tested my SVG’s in IE8 (both IE7 mode and IE8 mode) and their horrible! unbelievably slow!

    @Ted – yeah I don’t think Jill is seriously suggesting that this is intentional, but it is quite uhm, uhm, coincidental? shall we say?

    Adobe dropping support for the SVG pluggin does suck, but I think they put in enough effort into it, to get a robust feature set, but investing more time when MSFT could just roll their own (since every other browser was supporting it natively) didn’t seem like wise business sense for them.

    Throw in a massive push for SilverLight and here we are – Diverting from the standards again.

    I’m not porting my SVG content to XAML/Silverlinght when it runs just fine in IE6, IE7, FF2, FF3, Safari 3, Chrome 1, etc.

    Someone needs to look at what happened to SVG in IE8 and get a fix into the next release ASAP.

  78. soum says:

    I have put my wish-list for IE here: http://bitswarm.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!5E27C0CA0A806715!498.entry

  79. Matthias Walther says:

    @EricLaw

    Sorry for the late answer, dating back to a topic I started on November 12.

    >With regard to your Java applet issue: Please provide a repro URL, and information on your Java VM version.

    It happens with ANY Java-applet. A test-URL is http://www.volano.com/chat.html – Click the Chat-Button when it’s done with loading.

    The Java applet itself works fine. The problem starts one you try to close IE8Beta2 after you have used Java in the current IE8-session. It is also regardless of the installed Java VM, as I have any version of it since IE8Beta2 was released. Currently installed is:

    java version "1.6.0_10"

    Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_10-b33)

    Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 11.0-b15, mixed mode, sharing)

    My system is running on Windows XP SP3 with all updated and all post-SP3-hotfixes installed (I always request these hotfixes as soon as they appear in the MSKB).

    A Word on the SVG / Silverlight discussion going on here:

    One of the PCs is use is running on an AMD Athlon XP 1200. I admit, the machine is quite ancient, like 7+ years old. However, Silverlight does not install on that particular machine. Once I analyzed the install-logfile and it turned out to be an issue with a certain command-set that is not supported by this CPU, I believe it was MMX2 oder SSE or something like that.

    Frankly, this is ridiculous, as Adobes Flash and SVG plugins in their latest versions run OK on the same machine. This means I’m automatically locked out of any Silverlight-content on the web. Adobe proofes that it is possible to do it without locking certain CPUs out. Silverlight should be recompiled to run on ancient PCs, too, as there are more than you may think, particularly used in business and office environments.

    What’s further annoying is that ‘Microsoft Update’ always comes up with the Silverlight-Update to be installed unless you tell it to suppress the displaying of that particular update. The update-scan should at least be modified not to show the update at all if an incompatible CPU is detected.

  80. Matthias Walther says:

    I should add something to the Java problem (see above):

    I cannot close IE8 anymore after I used Java. I have to shut it off via Task Manager (or Process Explorer, which replaces Task Manager on my System).

  81. Eghost says:

    Can’t say I am more than disappointed in IE 8 teams decision to not address the lock down of the UI. For me it will be a few more years of using Fire Fox. Microsoft has talked a good game about wanting to listen, and wanting to change, and they that they learned from their mistakes from Vista. The locking down of the UI was a major complaint in the beta’s of Vista and here we are four years after that decision and Microsoft still refuses to admit they made a mistake. Basically, Options Microsoft Options, still can’t figure out why Microsoft feels as though it must dictate on how to use a computer.  It’s the Megalomania factor with Microsoft when it come to user choice, it’s we will tell you what you like. It really is, Life inside Microsoft’s Walls.  

  82. Ted says:

    eghost, why don’t you go grace an Apple blog with your rant about UI customizability.  They need your input much more than the IE team does.

  83. Ted the EPIC FAIL says:

    Ted the MS troll shill, why don’t you go troll some trolling site/forum instead? They need your trolling much more than the commentors does.

  84. don says:

    @Ted  (the first epic fail);

    What has Apple got to do with IE7/8’s failed UI?  Firefox and Chrome both run on windows, and neither looks like a hodge podge of non-uniform controls and thought to layout and usability.

    Surely if these folks can build a UI that works MSFT can take 10min to write down the isses, and spend a day fixing them.

    What eghost (and myself) take issue with is that these are simple fixes that could have been done the day after Tabs entered the IE7 build cycle.  If they had been addressed we wouldn’t all still be complaining that things aren’t customizable, and that the discrepancies out-weight the consistencies in IE’s UI.

    Then again, there must be a "We think IE is super uber" forum that you can go post at, and leave those of us interested in fixing IE to work on the details.

    Then again, the "We think IE is super uber" (or any version of that) doesn’t seem to exist.  I wonder why? Maybe its because only you are a member.

  85. @Matthias Walther

    1- I went to

    http://www.javatester.org/version.html

    with IE 8 beta 2 and had no problem. The JRE version was correctly identified. I have the same version and same OS as you, Matthias.

    2- I went to

    ww2.cs.fsu.edu/~steele/XHTML/appletObject.html

    to test IE 8 beta 2 a bit more. The <object> support is correct.

    3- I went to that

    http://www.volano.com/chat.html

    entered a room, tested IE 8 beta 2 and everything went fine. No crash, no hang, no problem noticed.

    Finally, it seems important that you identify for me what is

    Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 11.0-b15, mixed mode, sharing)

    because I do not use that. It may be related to your problem.

    Regards, Gérard

  86. Jan says:

    A major philosophy for Windows 7 is that there should be no more FYI balloon notifications. If baloon notifications are shown, these should link a problem to a resolution.

    See this blog post: http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/11/11/action-center.aspx

    I’ve noticed IE 8 breaks this philosophy in that it shows more and more balloons that desturb the user’s workflow. For example, EVERY TIME I activate ‘Compatability view’ for a website, a FYI balloon pops out saying "This website has opened in Compatability View". Of course it DID!

    Could you explain why IE 8 does not conform to this Windows 7 philosophy?

  87. colin says:

    Hi,

    Is there anyone left out there with half a brain who doesn’t realize that ie is the worst application ever made? I am a web professional and therefore loathe IE and today as I was once again dealing with some of it’s proprietary bs I decided to do some light googling and see if there is anything I can do to help bring it down. So, dear IE team, my suggestion for IE is this: resign. Just get out of the game. Withdraw. For the good of humanity.

  88. Dan says:

    Colin, thank you for your worthless post.  You’ve said nothing of value here, but perhaps the time you wasted in posting this screed saved someone else from having to spend time listening to you in person.

  89. Jeremy says:

    Has anyone else noticed that InPrivate mode isn’t 100% reliable in removing all traces?

    I’ve noted after several hours that I have keywords that end up in my top right search box, and history items that don’t disappear.

    I haven’t figured out exactly what parts are broken, but it still needs some work.

  90. Olivier says:

    @colin : the job of "web professional" seems way too difficult for you, so I give you this suggestion: resign.

  91. jamal says:

    @Oliver & @Dan – lay off Colin.  Colin is frustrated just like the rest of us.  Developing for IE6 is a pain, developing for IE7 is a different pain, and now IE8 is a new almost standards based browser, with this odd mode that bumps it back to an almost IE7 mode.

    Us Web Professionals are now stuck, not just supporting 2 bad browsers (IE6/IE7), but now 2 more quirky browsers (IE8/IE~7).

    Like colin, I just want a browser that works.  Hopefully the next beta of IE8 proves to be a worthy one, so we can move ahead.

    Personally, the day that IE8 goes final and is released to the public IS the same day that IE6 gets bumped off the supported list.

    Thus the release of IE8 is much more important for the de-throning of IE6 and having to spend any more time supporting that horrible browser version.

  92. eghost says:

    I don’t blame the developers and programmers of IE 8. The problem lies in Microsoft Corporate Management, They are the one’s who are dictating to the developers what they can and can not do. For what ever reason only known to Microsoft Management, they do not and will not allow changes to the UI. If you have Windows 7 you will know, this is the new UI standard that Microsoft is forcing, this is what their Corporate Headquarters want.  My problem with this is it is going against what Microsoft’s newest PR campaign, "Life with out Walls." The truth is Microsoft is talking a good game, but that is all it is, "Talk." They haven’t really changed since the betas of Vista, I would not want to work under those conditions. Will they ever change, perhaps only if IE 8 fails, and Windows 7 fails. Than they may but I don’t see it any time in the near future.   By no means do I believe this is Eric and his team, this comes from above. Its wrong,but when a corporate VP or above says, "This is the way you will do it," they have no choice but to follow.

    As far as Ted is concerned; What Ted has said is unimportant, and I do not hear his words.  

  93. SiSL says:

    I have to agree with MS UI management. Office 2007 for example had terrible UI not even compatible with Vista’s looks itself (you know, not matching default UI or themes etc.) Same going on for Windows Live products. Hope it does not end up with IE8, it is not that bad compared to most products.

  94. @Colin

    Your post has some merits. It will remind IE team people that, even after the upcoming release of IE 8, there will still remain some people using IE 6 (and that’s very unfortunate) and a lot more people using IE 7 (that is also unfortunate) in the next 2-3 years.

    At this point, complaining is not useful (sterile, negative complaining never is helpful anyway). Since IE 8 is in development and in a beta cycle, what is needed is testing, bug reporting, good testcases, validating a bug, etc..

    At this point, discovering and reporting reproducible crash bugs in IE 8 beta 2 or beta 3 will be very useful. At this point, discovering and reporting reproducible hang bugs, memory leakages, severe bugs in IE 8 beta 2 or beta 3 will be very useful.

    Adopting a "Mr Burns" attitude is not going to be helpful for anyone. Ending right now the development of IE 8 would be very foolish.

    Adopting a "DrPhil" attitude and behavior (channeling frustration into a constructive behavior) is going to be helpful for Microsoft and for web authors (who will want their website to support accordingly IE 8) now and for the next few years.

    Regards, Gérard

  95. @Colin,

    A few other points.

    If you are going to complain, then at least do it when the product is finalized and RTM. This is what techie websites do when evaluating, reviewing, comparing browser softwares. When in development, testing cycle and beta cycles, it is best for everyone involved to cooperate as constructively as possible.

    Another issue which is entirely under the control of web authors is support for browser and browser versions. If they absolutely need to support IE 7, they do not necessarly need to support it as well as other more web-standards-compliant browsers. E.g.: why go through so many hours of coding (non-forward-compatible hacks and dirty code) to compensate for the absence of support for border-radius in IE 7?

    Inviting diplomatically website visitors to switch or to upgrade their browser (or browser version) by addressing their intelligence is something web authors can do. It is in the best interests of all parties involved that web users, web visitors use the best web-standards-compliant browsers and/or upgrade their current web browser. The *_minimum floor_* for every web user for now and for the next few years should be an acid2-compliant browser.

    Regards, Gérard

  96. Ted is punditry says:

    @Ted, your guesses are punditry. And they are most completely wrong too. Nostradamus’s are much better and more accurate.

  97. Griffin1 says:

    As usual, I had a problem with IE7 this moring and while I resolved it right away, I have whittle away 45 MIN trying to tell you about the problem. I can’t even find a way to post a new thread.  I have been through the cycle of "contact us" "sign up for our blog" and then get into the blog with NO way to start a new topic at least seven times.  The help utility was useless. Once again, Microsoft has found a way to ruin my morning.

    My issue was this simple thing:  when I started to use the browser this morning it was offline.  the Error message I received said to go into Tools and see if Work Offline was Checked.  Well, Microsoft, you have done it again – the Work offline option is under the File menu, not Tools.  I found my way through, but I can’t see about 40% of your customers getting through this simple thing.  Why can’t they get these things right after 7 iterations?  And why is it so hard to give you feedback?

  98. @Griffin1,

    > the Error message I received said to go into Tools and see if Work Offline was Checked.  Well, Microsoft, you have done it again – the Work offline option is under the File menu, not Tools.

    glazman.org/ie7b2/toolsMenu.gif

    shows that Work Offline was under Tools in IE 7 beta 2 but that is *not* the Tools menu from the menubar but the Tools menu from the Command Bar. The command bar still exits under IE 8 beta 2 and we can see the "Work Offline" option in *both* the File menu of the menubar *and* the Tools menu of the command bar. So the problem you stumbled upon still exists in IE 8 beta 2.

    It can be somewhat confusing. There’s definitely duplicated items in the UI.

    Please write an email to Ben Millard, aka Cerbera because he has (updates? maintains?) a review of the IE 7 user interface and he has also one on IE 8 user interface:

    projectcerbera.com/ui/ie8/

    I’ll file a bug report for you at connect IE beta feedback on this Work Offline, Tools versus File menus.

    Regards, Gérard

  99. @Griffin1,

    > the Error message I received said to go into Tools and see if Work Offline was Checked.

    How did you trigger such error message exactly? In terms of steps to reproduce this error message. This is important before filing a bug report.

    Over here, with IE 8 beta 2, all I can get is a

    "Webpage unavailable while offline"

    modal window saying

    "

    The webpage you requested is not available offline.

    To view this page, click Connect

    [Connect] [Stay Offline]

    "

    which, I would say, is appropriate and overcome the possible double place for the Work Offline menu option.

    If your problem is only reproducible under IE 7 and not in IE 8 beta 2, then there is very little to do… except email Ben Millard, aka Cerbera.

    You see, IE 7 is done, finished, released: there is no work done on its UI anymore.

    Regards, Gérard

  100. montestoris says:

    nececito mi internet funcionando

  101. montestoris says:

    nececito mi internet funcionando