Wanted: IE8 Beta Testers


As previously mentioned in the IE8 Beta Feedback post back in March, we have several ways to submit feedback on the IE8 Beta. Currently the only way to directly file a bug with the IE Team is to be a part of the IE8 Technical Beta program on Microsoft Connect. Beta 2 is right around the corner and we are expanding our reach!  If you wish to be a part of making IE better by contributing great bug reports then please email us at IESO@microsoft.com and tell us a little about yourself including why you’d be a great beta tester.

We look forward to hearing from you,

Allison Burnett
Program Manager

Comments (150)

  1. maybe maybe not says:

    Maybe more people would participate if:

    a.) You allow users to download/view attachments so they can test bugs.

    b.) You gave them feedback to indicate which bugs are being fixed, and when they are fixed.

    c.) The current beta didn’t have such a horrible auto-scrolling issue.

    d.) MSFT made some sort of declaration that IE Feedback would actually be around after the IE8 RTM.  The fact that this was shut down after IE7 went RTM  ***LOST*** most of your loyal contributors.

  2. element says:

    do we need to do this if we are already part of the iebeta on connect?

  3. Heya says:

    Hiya !!

    I really am hoping that IE8 will be a step up from IE7 (which I really love; IE6 was/is really bad).

    I hope that IE8 fixes memory leaks (which improved in IE7, but more can be done), performance (like startup speed), standards support (Acid2 AND Acid3 please, or at least improve upon it). Can we also get inline search? It’s a bit overdue for that (-_-) …

    Perhaps you can check out on this too: http://www.istartedsomething.com/taskforce/view.php?id=608 + http://www.istartedsomething.com/taskforce/view.php?id=931 .

    Remember to keep us updated on all this. Have an organized bug-report confirmation + fixing/ acknowledged page for IE8 beta 2. I love that the IE team is posting on new features and improvements, but we barely have any development updates. Tell us what’s happening !!

    Maybe then, I might test it :) !! Confirm to me that IE8 beta2 is well enough, and I’ll get it. I don’t usually use beta software, but convine me!! Give us a reason to, and tell us what you will do about it (^_^) . Good luck :) !!

  4. I’m a web design prof, but more importantly, I’m a Mac user and diehard FireFox advocate.  So fine, give me a reason to switch back.  Sure, I keep IE7 and Parallels on hand, but dare me I say, dare me!

  5. Les says:

    Inline Search in IE Exists through an add-on:

    http://www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx?itemid=3012162

    It’s not perfect but it’s better than that annoying search dialog.

  6. Kristen [MSFT] says:

    @element:

    No action by you is needed if you are already on MS Connect.

  7. Un tel énoncé en surprendra certainement plus d’un. Et pourtant, MSDN, sur son blog, vient de rédiger un billet qui va dans ce sens. Ceux qui sont tentés par l’aventure peuvent adresser leur candidature par courriel à l’adresse indiquée sur le billet

  8. Vasil Dinkov says:

    It would be much easier to report bugs (and help the IE team) if you setup a decent bug tracking tool ala Bugzilla that is available to ALL web developers out there..

  9. Shelley says:

    Why, on earth, when other browser developers provide open and easy to use bug systems, would Microsoft limit itself in this way?

    I have a bug in Webkit, five minutes can help me determine if someone had already reported the bug; no more than another five to submit the bug, with test case.

    Mozilla created software to make it easy to search on, and submit bugs. Why, I bet even you all could use it.

    Opera has a handy, dandy bug form that makes bug submission a snap.

    And here is the IE team "If you email us and ask us really nice we may, just may, mind you, deign to let you actually tell us about that bug, which if left in the released product will haunt us until the end of time. If you don’t ask nice, you can stuff your bug."

  10. JM says:

    I am not writing an essay on why I’d be a great tester.  You want/need more testers upload a current complied working build and the bug report tool in one place.  Let the web both see and use it.  Most of us have had terrible experiences so far with Beta 1 so perhaps it’s time to release a Beta 2.

  11. Andrew says:

    Dear Allison Burnett,

    I’ve been a software engineer for 10 years and I’m taken back by why we need to provide reasons as to why we want to be great beta testers for a product that’s on the decline in the web browser market. I expect this from a would be employer. I’m all for a better IE but this is not the best effort in gaining interest that Microsoft so dearly needs. You need to do more than just offer invitation to other beta programs. Andrew.

  12. Arieta says:

    Les:

    http://www.ie7pro.com/ also has inline search… and a ton of other useful features. It’s working fine with ie8b1, for me.

  13. Bob says:

    And this is why Firefox and Safari do it right. They don’t need there users to request to be "beta testers", daily/hourly snapshots available for anyone and easy access to bugzilla. Sorry Microsoft, this Old model doesn’t cut it anymore.

  14. Helder Magalhães says:

    Apart from agreeing with most comments on this thread (about the lack of a publicly accessible bug tracking tool and many other feedback approaches seen in other products)…

    Why should I be convinced to:

    «tell us a little about yourself including why you’d be a great beta tester»

    When it should be you telling me why should I invest my time:

    * Deploying IE8 beta (installation and/or using a virtual machine [1]);

    * Running through test cases;

    * Trying to figure where may a bug be originated (closed source code…);

    * Creating reduced test cases [2];

    * Etcetera.

    As all this already made me silently ignore the previous call for feedback [3], this time (as the wording is more or less the same) I wanted to (publicly) explain why…

    [1]http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=21EABB90-958F-4B64-B5F1-73D0A413C8EF&displaylang=en

    [2]http://webkit.org/quality/reduction.html

    [3]http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/05/ie8-beta-feedback.aspx

  15. videoman says:

    No long words here just that I would make a great tester. I do video tutorials for many different programs which can been seen at http://www.lwbs.com. I have been working with computers for several years and currently working on my associates degree in IT; which I will finish this year. I have also taken several eclasses through IAW (International Webmaster Association) and many other books associated with different program.

  16. Wow says:

    >…tell us a little about yourself including why you’d be a great beta tester.

    American Heritage Dictionary:

    ARROGANT (adj.)

    1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.

    2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one’s superiority toward others.

  17. Mike says:

    Sorry but I would I want to go through all this hassle. The team have enough bugs now to keep them going for a couple of years.

    But here’s one for free

    elem.setAttribute(prop,value)

    prop ‘class’    IE7 have to use ‘className’

    prop ‘colspan’  IE7 have to use ‘colSpan’

    prop ‘maxlength’IE7 have to use ‘maxLength’

    now would have it have so terrible difficult to fix these in IE7. You could have continued to allow the other value so as to ‘not break the web!’

  18. Michael says:

    Where can I download a Debian package? Found no link …

  19. ZippyV says:

    @Mike:

    (from W3.org) Those are not bugs but implemented from the recomendation:

    className of type DOMString

    —————————

    The class attribute of the element. This attribute has been renamed due to conflicts with the "class" keyword exposed by many languages. See the class attribute definition in HTML 4.0.

  20. Betatester says:

    All Microsoft-Users are Betatester!!!!

  21. Arieta says:

    No offense, but this is a little bit ridiculous.

    Me, and everybody else, will beta test the ie8 beta 2 when its officially released. It is called a beta version – so everybody checking it and providing feedback about it is considered a tester of an application currently in beta phase, or a "beta tester" for short.

    There’s no point in asking people to be testers.

  22. Mike says:

    @ZippyV

    Ok maybe the className was not the best example for historical reasons.

    However if I am writing code with using a xhtml docType then all attributes should be lower case.

    This means if you try and use elem.setAttribute(prop,val) for any of following it won’t work in IE7.

    I have listed a-c from

    http://webbugtrack.blogspot.com/2007/08/bug-242-setattribute-doesnt-always-work.html

    # acceptcharset: Use "acceptCharset"

    # accesskey: Use "accessKey"

    # allowtransparency: Use "allowTransparency"

    # bgcolor: Use "bgColor"

    # cellpadding: Use "cellPadding"

    # cellspacing: Use "cellSpacing"

    # checked: See note (bug 299)

    # class: Use "className"

    # colspan: Use "colSpan"

    # class: Use "className"

    # colspan: Use "colSpan"

    Of course trying setAttribute("style",val") won’t work. Nor setAttribute("onmouseover",val") [or onMouseOver]

    The point is there are countless examples of bugs like this and a google search will find sites such as webbugtrack listing them. So if the team want people to spend time submitting bugs why don’t they at least publish a list of all the bugs they know about and and indication of when they are likely to be fixed.

  23. harmony says:

    Woot woot woot!

    We no longer have to wait for MSFT to support Canvas in IE… the developer community couldn’t wait for IE to catch up, so they added it themselves!

    http://blog.vlad1.com/2008/07/30/no-browser-left-behind/

    Vlad has put together a nice little ActiveX that allows support for this technology in IE.

    It isn’t "native" support… true, but close enough that we can start pushing out this technology onto production websites without having to wait for IE to catch up.

  24. Eduardo Valencia says:

    Beta 2 will be public,what’s the point?

  25. John says:

    WOW!!! Back to elementary school, I would be a great Beta tester because I am currently Beta testing Vista Ultimate SP1, XP Pro SP3, Office 2007, and of course IE7. I really think the problems with the current progs need to be solved before we go out and add some new problems to the mix.

  26. Ted says:

    Folks, in case it’s not clear: Yes, beta-2 is going to be a public beta that anyone can download.  However, if you want to file bugs, you need to be a part of the "tech beta" by getting an invite to CONNECT from Allison.  So, if you want to actually make any meaningful impact on the beta, you should join by sending her mail.  I really doubt they’re going to grade essays or any such nonesense, they just want to make sure you’re not going to litter their database with stupid "bugs" that aren’t really bugs.

    As for whether or not this is a good system, beats me.  Bugzilla is nice, but if you look at the incoming bugs daily, and the comments on them, it’s pretty clear that the mozilla guys waste quite a bit of time dealing with stupid bugs and comments.

  27. holy smokes says:

    You know, for a bunch of people that seem to really like calling Microsoft arrogant, the comments here from the developers make me think that this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.  If you don’t want to participate, then don’t.  Writing notes here about how you are too busy, important, qualified, etc to deign to participate is just ridiculous self-promotion.

    @Shelley:  Really? Do you find a lot of people respond positively to your approach at persuasion?  Don’t you think there might have been a better way to make your point?

    Seriously, the responses on this blog make me ashamed to be a developer and associated with the likes of the posters here.

  28. Vamien McKalin says:

    Uh, how can i file bugs against Microsoft and the IE Team? This option of becoming a beta tester is unnecessary, things need to be more open. I won’t be signing up for this crap

  29. @Shelley

    > Why, on earth, when other browser developers provide open and easy to use bug systems, would Microsoft limit itself in this way?

    IE customer base is hundreds of millions of users. Do you really want millions of users to be able to submit their "bugs" to a database? Let’s say you get 100,000 bug reports in a week: you’ll need lots of personel to go over each bug report, review, examine+investigate webpage causing bugs, confirm or infirm these, search for a duplicate, resolve as duplicate, etc.

    My experience of online public bug database is that less than 10% of all bug reports are excellent bug reports, pinpointing/spotting a true bug (or a possible realistically speaking issue), reporting a non-reported before bug, done following the norms and criteria of a bug report, at least trying to achieve some kind of reasonable quality or workable quality. 90% or so eventually lead to loss of time, energy from either sides or from both sides.

    E.g. Did you know that mozilla had to robo-resolve thousands of inactive unconfirmed (because they were unconfirmable) bug reports in 2004?

    E.g. Every single day, about 100 bug reports are filed at bugzilla.mozilla.org and less than 10% of such 100 bug reports do eventually go through all the steps of a bug cycle: they are investigated, confirmed, fixed, documented, etc. Is such percentage of efficiency/relevance sustainable for a team of software developers when the customer base is hundreds of millions?

    > I have a bug in Webkit, five minutes can help me determine if someone had already reported the bug; no more than another five to submit the bug, with test case.

    How good are your bug reports? Are they following bug report guidelines? Can you do a truly reduced testcases? Some people can not create a webpage without validation markup errors …

    > Mozilla created software to make it easy to search on, and submit bugs. Why, I bet even you all could use it.

    The problem bugzilla.mozilla.org bug database is exactly that it has become way too easy to file bug reports. Sometimes, people should query or email the website responsible before filing a bug at mozilla… or at least try to report their problem to such website. Often, very often, people do not read, do not follow bug writing guidelines. Often, they report and then go away or remain silent, not replying to questions or queries from QA bug triaging people. Often, very often, people submit bug report and do not search for a duplicate at bugzilla.mozilla.org.

    > Opera has a handy, dandy bug form that makes bug submission a snap.

    Opera bug tracking system is not a public, fully accessible bug database. So, when you submit a bug report to Opera, you have no idea if it has been resolved as a duplicate because you can not search the database, you have no idea if your bug is confirmed, rejected, etc.. unless you sign the Opera’s NDA contract. Sometimes, some bug reports are deliberately ignored because Opera has to follow IE’s buggy behavior or IE’s buggy, non-compliant, quirky "interpretation" of the spec. .. and you won’t necessarly be informed of this.

    The main, nr1 problem I have with your post is that you assume that the easiness of bug reporting must be a good thing when I believe it should not be a determinant criteria. I’d say that 99% of all users of IE should be refrained from reporting bugs.

    Please do not get me wrong. There are problems – yes problems and issues – with connect IE’s beta feedback bug database. But selecting carefully, judiciously people who can/could file bug reports on IE 8+ is a thing that I fully understand and approve.

    Regards, Gérard

  30. Heya says:

    Comment back on my note about inline search (and from everyone’s comment):

    What I meant was that inline search should be built in. I use IE7Pro (thank god it’s such a useful plugin), and it’s great (even had crash recovery).

    I’m happy to see that IE8 will have improved crash recovery (makes me worry about IE7Pro), and that adds to functionality. Inline search should also be included in the mix.

  31. Longtime MS Software user says:

    The main reason I won’t be a beta tester is that I don’t want to have to run a VM image just to test it.  I can’t believe they still won’t let it run side by side with IE7 and older.

  32. Laurie says:

    Dear Allison

    Thank you very much for the invitation to be a beta tester for your latest version of IE.

    Unfortunately I have to decline, because although I would be a great tester (have all the tech skills and spend many hours per day creating and browsing a multitude of sites) I can’t seem to see your offer of payment for doing work for a commercial product – I presume IE8 will only be available to validated MS OS customers right?

    So unless you can come up with a better offer, I will wait until the fools have done all your testing free of charge, and then as a paying MS OS customer I will download the final product when it becomes available.

    Best wishes with your ever declining browser user base.

    Regards

  33. Shelley says:

    @Gèrard: IE customer base is hundreds of millions of users. Do you really want millions of users to be able to submit their "bugs" to a database? Let’s say you get 100,000 bug reports in a week: you’ll need lots of personel to go over each bug report, review, examine+investigate webpage causing bugs, confirm or infirm these, search for a duplicate, resolve as duplicate, etc.

    I was waiting and hoping someone would say something along these lines.

    What makes you think that Firefox doesn’t have millions of users now, too? You’re assuming that 90% of the world is using IE only, now, when that is no longer the case.

    For my own site, even accounting for the non-tech material, IE users measure, at most, 47% of users at one site. That’s not the guaranteed overwhelming winner ratio the browser once had.

    As for the untold whatever numbers of unfixed bugs at Mozilla that you seem to see as a horrid burden: they are documentation if nothing else. They provide insight into the direction a browser is going, as well as provide a heads up for the developers so we don’t get these stupid beta release where _golly_ support for opacity has suddenly disappeared.

    At a minimum, giving that browser, who you deem would provide useless feedback, and so should be not seen or heard, a chance to say, "This is broken for me", provide enormous feelings of ownership on the part of the user. It makes the browser "their" browser, as silly as this may seem to you.

    And lets face it, most people don’t file bug reports, and the ones that do, most are more proficient at bug reports than you imply.

    Does this mean duplications happen? Sure, but at least, we’re all in this process together. We are not "children" who can’t be trusted to waste the esteemed IE developers time–completely discounting the time we take to try and provide useful feedback.

    Microsoft needs to remember what it was like to listen to its customers, and not just a sifted, corporate few. What does it take to get through the heavy metal mental block that seems to surround this team? Every time the team makes what it perceives to be one step forward, the rest of us see it moving four steps back. Then the team acts like we’re the fault, we’re the problem. After all, look how hard the team is trying.

    You want to know what the real problem is? The world of web development is changing, and Microsoft is still stuck in a Lotus Notes mindset.

  34. Stan says:

    Why do Mac and Linux zealots waste there time posting here? it seams to me that Linux needs allot of work itself and maybe if you Linux zealots spend more time beta testing your own OS it might come maybe 1 or 2 % closer in then the 0.87 Market share it has now. Mac zealots lol i would be spending a ton of time reporting bugs it that thing they call Safari the worst POS browser i ever tried and allot of security bugs too.

    If your trying to convert people to your crap your wasteing your time here because you people are a joke

  35. Ted says:

    Shelley: Even the most optimistic credible estimates (which count browser share of non-windows platforms, handhelds, etc) show IE with 73% marketshare.

    There’s no question that Firefox has "millions" of users; the question is how many millions.  IE’s user base is MUCH larger than Firefox’s, and as others have pointed out, bugzilla is becoming a bit of a cesspool, particularly as Mozilla’s share grows.  Take a look…  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?product=Core&product=Firefox&product=Mozilla+Application+Suite&product=Thunderbird&product=Toolkit&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED,NEW,ASSIGNED,REOPENED,RESOLVED&chfield=%5BBug%20creation%5D&chfieldfrom=-24h

  36. Darth says:

    where on connect is this beta? Dont see it.

  37. @Shelley

    > What makes you think that Firefox doesn’t have millions of users now, too? You’re assuming that 90% of the world is using IE only, now, when that is no longer the case.

    No, I am not assuming that the 90% of the world is using IE only. I assume that about 16% to 20% (and growing, increasing) of the online world is using Firefox and that ~= 75% of the world is using IE. My belief is intimately related to an wide convergence of websites on world stats gathered by several sources:

    http://www.gtalbot.org/Varia/BrowserStats.html#OtherReferences

    Stats discussion is not and was not the purpose of my post and it was not yours either. So why bring this (discussion on numbers) up? If 1 billion (more or less 2-3 hundreds of millions… whatever..) of people are using IE and that 200 millions (more or less 1-2 hundreds of millions… whatever..) of people are using Firefox, you understandably still want to reduce the number of bad, unconfirmable, poorly written bug reports… no?

    > As for the untold whatever numbers of unfixed bugs at Mozilla that you seem to see as a horrid burden: they are documentation if nothing else.

    But such numbers of inactive unconfirmed bugs (because they are unconfirmable) have become an important burden for QA triaging bug people, – volunteers that is, may I remind you. You are bound to find it more and more difficult to get volunteers (which require some training and experience at doing QA triaging bugs) to do this sort of volunteer work. Last year, it was the subject of investigation: why is there less and less people doing QA bug triaging. No one at bugzilla.mozilla.org will seriously argue with you that a wide majority of bug reports reported every single day do not follow bug writing guidelines, are not precise, are possibly duplicates, lack useful details, specifics, etc,etc,etc.. I can document and substantiate my claims.

    > They provide insight into the direction a browser is going, as well as provide a heads up for the developers

    Such insight should be compared, confronted with the investment too. How useful, helpful is such insight if it involves huge amount of time, energy, money/salary, etc.? On a budget perspective, everything has a relative relevance.

    > so we don’t get these stupid beta release where _golly_ support for opacity has suddenly disappeared.

    Lots of talk about that opacity has been going on for many months. 2+ years ago, when IE 7 was being developed, filter: alpha(opacity=) had been removed. I even created a testcase, uploaded it on my website and then it got fixed in IE 7 beta 3 build 5450.4. I can document this: everything is in my IE 7 bug webpage too. What’s make you (and many others) believe this is NOT going to happen for IE 8 final release, that filter: alpha(opacity=) will not be re-implemented? Why people assumed it wouldn’t/won’t be re-implemented back… especially since IE 8 involves a new rendering engine?!

    If your webpage breaks or becomes inaccessible (content or navigation) because opacity or filter: alpha(opacity=) no longer works, then your webpage fails very bad on elementary WCAG 1.0 guidelines.

    > At a minimum, giving that browser, who you deem would provide useless feedback, and so should be not seen or heard, a chance to say, "This is broken for me", provide enormous feelings of ownership on the part of the user.

    Are you actually saying that IE 8 beta 1 users can not report a webpage problem with the IE 8 add-on "Report a webpage problem"? Or are you saying that anyone can and should be able to report any kind of perceived problem for any reason (without complying with bug writing guidelines) directly into the IE bug database?

    > And lets face it, most people don’t file bug reports, and the ones that do, most are more proficient at bug reports than you imply.

    Then tell this to bugzilla.mozilla.org! If you want full names and precise email addresses, I’ll provide you with several.

    For webkit.org and Opera, the ratio/percentages of good quality bug reports may be higher but it’s still a concern as lots of poorly written bug reports involve wasted time and energy from either sides or both sides of QA triaging bug report.

    I submitted my opinion after participating in more than 1300 bug reports at bugzilla.mozilla.org. I also have reported bugs at webkit.org (~ 3 years) and Opera (5+ years).

    > Does this mean duplications happen? Sure, but at least, we’re all in this process together. We are not "children" who can’t be trusted to waste the esteemed IE developers time–completely discounting the time we take to try and provide useful feedback.

    Anyone can still provide feedback with the current provided tools by IE team. Not perfect tools. Now, how useful, helpful, relevant is this person or that person feedback is often very relative, often varies a lot.

    > Microsoft needs to remember what it was like to listen to its customers, and not just a sifted, corporate few. What does it take to get through the heavy metal mental block that seems to surround this team?

    This team obeys directives, guidelines, orders from module owners and product managers, company policies and agenda, Non-Disclosure Agreement contrats, etc.

    > Every time the team makes what it perceives to be one step forward, the rest of us see it moving four steps back. Then the team acts like we’re the fault, we’re the problem. After all, look how hard the team is trying.

    IE 8 now uses the best, most web standards support as its default rendering mode: this major decision came as a surprise to most of us and out of 600 messages posted in IE blog in reaction to such decision, I don’t recall a single negative one against such swindle.

    Regards, Gérard

  38. Shelley says:

    Gèrard, I don’t know your site’s statistics, all I know is what’s now showing up at my sites. Not just my sites, your estimates on non-IE users is heavy compared to statistics at other sites, such as W3C schools.

    What I’m saying is that Microsoft does not win respect from the developer and designer community for the "standards" it supports, and for the process it has in place for taking feedback. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to work on a team for a browser that is primarily used by default, not by preference.

    "IE 8 now uses the best, most web standards support as its default rendering mode: this major decision came as a surprise to most of us and out of 600 messages posted in IE blog in reaction to such decision, I don’t recall a single negative one against such swindle."

    Sorry that didn’t translate well, I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Something about support for XHTML and SVG?

    We can go back and forth, but what it all boils down to is our expectations about a browser company’s commitment to the community. If you’re happy with the MS way, more power to you.  

  39. Jerry Mead says:

    I sincerely recommend that you sign up to the Connect beta program because it will – if nothing else – give you access to the deeply technical and extraordinarily impressive IE8 Tech Beta Newsletter.

  40. Ted says:

    Shelley, I hope you understand why W3C Schools statistics are very skewed and don’t reflect browser share of the world at large?  If you don’t, you might want to read THEIR explanation of why that is.

  41. LFB says:

    I just got receive the invitation link to be an Beta tester  and click on it, make a register on connect on final step just show the message, "registration nunber invalid, or is not acepting invites anymore…"

    What? i just receive the invite link a few minutes ago… is that right?

    Please IE8 testers explan to me, i realy want to make part of IE8 beta tester team…

  42. Convert says:

    @LFB

    You don’t have faith in beta testing, no wonder the link won’t work.

    Have faith, then click on it, maybe the M$ god will answer your pray.

  43. @LBF:  We have contacted MS Connect to investigate this issue. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

  44. Greig Mitchell says:

    Hi I’m really looking forward to IE 8 and would love to help Beta test it. I’ve Beta tested many other Microsoft Products such as Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008, Windows Home Server, Windows Media Center Feature Pack 2008.

    Thanks

  45. Helder Magalhães says:

    @holy smokes [1]

    > You know, for a bunch of people that seem to really like calling Microsoft arrogant, the comments here from the developers make me think that this is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.  If you don’t want to participate, then don’t.  Writing notes here about how you are too busy, important, qualified, etc to deign to participate is just ridiculous self-promotion.

    Not sure if you were (also?) criticizing my post [2] but by reading it again I understood that it may have sounded somehow aggressive. Guess I missed the <sneer> tags… ;-)

    Truth is that there are lots of interesting projects out there which eager for valuable feedback (such as beta testing and filing issues). As the day (unfortunately?) only has 24 hours, one must establish priorities and decide where is time better spent…

    Yes, of course I will (eventually) reduce and file the issues I’m aware of. Thing is, for the reason previously stated, there’s no estimative for it: filing issues naively is not an option, and time required to do it right – searching for related issues in order to avoid duplicates, mashing up a decent explanation, creating reduced test case(s), maybe even a risking a guess or two from possible origin (not extensive list) – is not little as it may seem.

    Again, although my previous post could hold a bit of a complain tone, I’m aware of Microsoft’s efforts (Connect [3] and Dev team chats [4], for example). I understand that there may exist a relevant level of internal bureaucracy and/or resistance which may oppose to implementation of some already stated «recent» concepts within this thread (a truly open bug tracker, nightly/development snapshots, etc.) but… Let’s wait and see. :-)

    [1]http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx#8793546

    [2]http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx#8793083

    [3]http://connect.microsoft.com/

    [4]http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx

  46. Think says:

    I have participated in a number of beta tests for various products/companies.  But I have never heard of any company ask potential testers to write a CV as to why they believe they would be good testers and why they should be included as beta testers.  I am sorry, but you should be thankful for people joining a beta program and helping you deliver a higher quality product as a result!

    Also, think about what people are writing here.  As long as you ignore feedback, testers become very frustrated…Again, who is helping whom in these tests…

  47. Kalle says:

    Absolutely ridiculous procedure, just like IE and the whole company. It matches.

  48. Stifu says:

    Sorry Shelley and Ted, but you guys are hurting your credibility with your "W3C Schools". It’s "W3Schools", and they’re not related to W3C (and their site design sucks for an evangelism site). They just went for an ambiguous name, I guess that helps them selling their HTML/CSS diplomas.

    By the way, although I like Firefox and enjoy seeing its market share rise, I don’t trust the W3Schools stats all that much. They seem shady, and I even noticed they changed some past numbers once (I double checked on an archive site to make sure). If memory serves, Firefox was marked as 37% in February 2008, then once the March stats came up, they lowered the February number to 36.5%. Suspicious. Still, watching their stats is amusing.

  49. steve_web says:

    Wow, this is a pickle.

    Allison, please don’t take too much of this personally the comments here are directed at Microsoft not you personally.

    I am one of the "beta testers" with access to connect to file feedback (a.k.a. bugs) Although the system is far from perfect, it did provide me with a few things.

    1.) I can actually file a bug.

    2.) I can actually see what other bugs have been filed.

    3.) I get the newsletter (although @Jerry I wouldn’t suggest it is highly technical by any means)

    Where things fall down though, is right there.  That is all I can do.  What is needed is:

    1.) Commitment from MSFT that some sort of public bug tracking will ALWAYS remain open after IE8 is launched.

    2.) Connect users *NEED* to be able to view attachments/test cases.  I can’t verify, protest or present a simplified test case for a bug if I can’t test it.

    3.) Connect does not have *ANY* sort of "Fixed" status. Not only is this highly frustrating (to not have any clue on the status of an bug filed), but more importantly it gives me ZERO confidence that anything I file as a bug will receive the attention it needs and that the bug will be fixed.

    4.) Connect itself suffers from a UI issue with massive floating tooltips that are (A) annoying and unhelpful, and (B) not designed well, thus they show up when I scroll over anything, and force me to move my cursor off the page to dismiss them.

    5.) Closed "By Design".  This seems to be an all to common response to a lot of valid issues. I’m not sure what would be better, but this response is frustrating.  "Suspended pending re-design" might be a better one.

    Finally for everyone’s benefit, can you please indicate what kind of schedule we are looking at here.  Is this going to be beta going to be the one before beta 3? or is this it?  How about RC’s?  The net is a buzz with a 2008 RTM release which (quite frankly) doesn’t give enough time to wrap up this browser version (unless beta 2 blows us out of the water with its completeness)

    Thanks,

    steve_web

  50. Karl Erik says:

    According to article

    http://lifehacker.com/396048/speed-testing-the-latest-web-browsers

    using this test http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/csstest.html

    IE 7 is painfully slow on CSS rendering speed compared to the fastest windows browsers.

    Will IE 8 improve on CSS rendering speed?

  51. Nick says:

    Hallo.

    I have always hated IE, i try so hard to delete from the computer. IE is one big bug(sorry), try get some of the things that firefox have!, but i wanna try IE8 beta to see if MS have made some new things thats good so i can begin to live with IE and not try killing it!

    Anyways thanks :)

  52. the comments don’t work .. blabla

  53. Hi,

    Good to see that IE8 is looking for testers. I really agree with Helder Magalhães for his relatively clear situation view. Whatever.

    What’s important for everybody, and what the IE team have to understand : It’s not a problem to ask for help, it’s always good to say "please help us, we need you". It’s just a question of how you do it, just showing you’re doing us a favor. That’s a pity.

    It’s always good to have web browsers challenging each other, to be "the best alternative". It’s always good for user to have this challenge in background as it keeps teams active !

    If you just would to keep in mind one thing from this comment : you are working for end user, not only for any corporate team, even if THEY give you the money at the end of the month. So, if you ask for end user help, do it by keeping in mind "we’re the customers, you’re not". ;-)

    Regards

  54. Arieta says:

    Gérard Talbot has a point. Heck, the anti-MS fanboy replies that make up most of the comments in this blog just proves his point even more. I retract my statement about the non-private bugtracker to be ridiculous.

    on another note, will ie8 finally support png gamma properly? Next to png transparency, this is the heaviest image rendering issue in the browser, imo.

  55. Shelley says:

    Stifu, it doesn’t matter what the site is called, or what statistics are in place at any location. You name a statistic and we’ll find a site to support it.

    My point is, IE is not the only game in town, and the IE team has to stop acting like it has lock-in.

    Arieta, want MS to fail? Are you kidding? I want it to succeed, but I want it to meet its commitments. It made a commitment over a decade ago to "support standards". To me, IE will never be successful until it meets standards. All of them, not the ones the company cherry picks. And if it doesn’t like the standards, to work with the organizations involved to find a compromise, rather than pick up its marbles, and go home.

    IE once was the most innovative product on the web. Microsoft set the standard by which other browsers would be judged. Not only was it involved in the standards organizations, it led them, moved them in new, and exciting directions.

    I was one of 6 people who actually attending the first public roll out of Microsoft’s implementation of CSS-P, or DHTML as it was called then. I met the team who created it. This was the most exciting group of people I had ever met.

    What happened? Where did this creative, energetic and involved group go? You think you own the browser world so you let IE go dormant of years, and then when you roll anything out, it’s half baked, with support for some standards, but not others, leaving the rest of us sitting on a four legged stool with one leg missing.

    Having to watch out for your corporate customers, and having to maintain backwards compatibility? You should working with your customers to find a way to move them forward. But you couldn’t even bother to provide an upgrade for IE on Windows 2000.

    You know what Microsoft should have done? And would have earned our thanks? Let IE go. Focus on Silverlight, as a plug-in, and just let IE go. As a company, you’re really not committed to being a true browser company, and it’s obvious your interests lie in other directions and that’s cool. But you’re using a dominant position based on default installation to keep the web crippled. You are hurting us.

    This isn’t the IE team I knew over a decade ago. I don’t know what happened to that group. I miss that group.

  56. Shelley:

    I can tell you what happened… the EU decided they hate MS, and now any innovation has to go through miles of red tape.

  57. vszulc@gmail.com says:

    "but more importantly, I’m a Mac user and diehard FireFox advocate. "

    What a weirdo!

  58. vszulc@gmail.com says:

    "but more importantly, I’m a Mac user and diehard FireFox advocate. "

    What a weirdo!

  59. h.j.mache says:

    ich hoffe das er besser als die Vorgänger ist und ich in Zukunft damit statt mit dem FF surfe.

  60. @LBF: Your account should be working properly now.  The problem was that you had two accounts, so the invitation was associated with the one you did not log in with.  To avoid confusion in the future we merged all your account information into the account you logging in with.

    Thanks.

  61. @steve_web

    > I can actually see what other bugs have been filed.

    Unfortunately more and more bug reporters are now choosing vague, general description to identify the bugs.. so in the mid-term (or sooner than you may think), this will defeat efforts and energy to search for duplicates.

    As more and more bugs are filed, it becomes more and more important that adequate bug title (bug summary, bug subject line) are clear, precise, as specific as possible while being short (under 60 characters).

    IE connect feedback needs a bug database with overall more specificity: a field like component would be useful with possible values like HTML, CSS, DOM 2 Core, Table layout, javascript engine, etc. Having a component field should and will reduce the need to add more words in the bug title (bug summary)

    One thing that irritates me very much with the database is that font-size is set to 10px or so and I can not increase font-size (via View/Text size/Larger) without triggering the EM extreme text resizing bug and/or without breaking the page layout.

    > I get the newsletter

    The newsletter is pointless, useless and irrelevant to me.

    > Commitment from MSFT that some sort of public bug tracking will ALWAYS remain open after IE8 is launched.

    We all want a bug tracking system between major IE releases but I think MSFT should be cautious, careful and nuance its commitments at first. Not everyone should be able to file bugs in the database.

    > Connect users *NEED* to be able to view attachments/test cases.

    I understand this request but I don’t understand its urgency. What is wrong with uploading a test case on your own website? Isn’t that more flexible, versatile than an uploading attachment feature? My reasoning is that if you are a good IE beta tester, then I would assume you are a web developer who should be have some personal website, a webspace available somewhere.

    Once an attachment is uploaded on the connect IE beta feedback website, it can not be modified or upgraded. That’s one reason why I prefer to create a testcase, then upload it on my website, even for a bug report filed at webkit.org or bugzilla.mozilla.org.

    2 examples involving IE beta feedback where this mattered are bug 344812 and bug 341844 : after some needed clarifications with IE team, I was able to modify and upgrade the testcases.

    > Connect itself suffers from a UI issue with massive floating tooltips that are (A) annoying and unhelpful, and (B) not designed well, thus they show up when I scroll over anything, and force me to move my cursor off the page to dismiss them.

    I absolutely agree with you on this. Such DHTML tooltip is not only unhelpful, annoying, bugging but also not optimized, very CPU-demanding, abusing user system resources.

    Regards, Gérard

  62. steve_web says:

    @Gérard

    :-) I think we are on the same page for most of this.

    I do have a personal site where I can put stuff, but I’d rather not.  More importantly my personal site is often up/down moved like a yo-yo and thus is not the ideal location to post a test case.  I think that physically attaching it, makes it easy to manage.  If the external site is down, it isn’t a problem.  Better yet if I run the test, see the bug, I might very well know the workaround/solution, thus I can take the file, modify it, and post a new version that others can benefit from.

    You are right though, trying to find anything in Connect is a royal pain due to a lack of fields/categories.  I’d love to be able to filter on:

    Forms -> Controls -> Select Element

    Then search for issues with "click" in the subject.

    Likewise, the ability to revise the subject (keeping the #id) is very helpful… especially when after testing by others has confirmed that the real bug is a limited subset of what was originally stated.

    E.g. "Clicking links does change status bar message"

    to

    "Clicking links with href attribute set to ‘javascript:;’ does not change status bar message"

    As for keeping the site open between releases, it is more critical than they are aware.  90% of the bugs I’ve entered, verified etc. in there now, are the SAME bugs I entered, verified in IE7’s version of Connect.  Repeating this was a waste of my time, and everyone elses, and more importantly, I will _not_ do it again without confirmation of a permanent status to such a system.

    I Love doing web development, but the sub-par interaction options with Microsoft at this point leave a lot to be desired.

  63. LFB says:

    Hello again.

    Allison [MSFT] i’m here to thank you to your atention and speed to solve this problem.

    Now all is working perfectly.

    I’m glad to be part of IE8 beta tester team :)

  64. LFB says:

    Hello again.

    Allison [MSFT] i’m here to thank you to your concern and quickness to solve this problem.

    Now all is working perfectly.

    I’m glad to be part of IE8 beta tester team :)

  65. Monty says:

    Even the Connect site is riddled with inconvenient popup ‘tooltips’ that flicker on and off unpredictably.

    The popups don’t need to duplicate information that’s already on the page, such as ID, Created, Last Updated, Status, Title or Rating. A lot of space could be saved by excluding these details.

    Take a look at templatemonster.com and istock.com for a better popup effect.

  66. I’ve sent my email, please let me know if you did not receive it.

  67. Michael says:

    I saw this and thought I could help by downloading it. Then I read this page and I saw Andrew’s comment.

    So people have to apply to be beta testers? What next, I have to apply to send error reports that come up with existing IE7? Or better yet, I have to e-mail someone at Microsoft for permission to log onto my copy of Windows XP?

    Beta testers shoudln’t feel like they’re applying for something privileged, rather Microsoft should be thankful that there are people who want to donate their time to help test buggy software for free.

  68. I am currently entering some bug reports.

    After using the Connect interface for a few minutes, I suggest that you provide us with an href to the test case URL as opposed to plain text, especially as you are using overflow:hidden to stop long URLs overflowing over the page.

  69. Draiz says:

    @Wraith Daquell

    "I can tell you what happened… the EU decided they hate MS, and now any innovation has to go through miles of red tape."

    You are KIDDING, right? Or you’re just ignorant? People on this thread lying through their teeth are even worth than anti-microsoft trolls;

    Next time, please, have the decency to read before you make a fool of yourself or go back to school and study antitrust law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_antitrust_case

  70. Ted says:

    @@Draiz- What point are you trying to make exactly?  

    When you come into a forum and insult others without actually stating an opinion of your own, YOU are the troll.

  71. mocax says:

    Open source projects also had their down sides.

    The dev had to sieve through tons of reports that are detrimental to their heads and keyboards.

    e.g. "click not working"

  72. Jason Goh says:

    I have tested IE 8 since beta 1 just released, but after few days i uninstalled it, bcos it causes memory leaks, and caused my system works like a snail. and 70% websites is cannot work well, specially the link cannot clicks, so there is a backward compatible problem for that.

    i m a web developer, and i m microsoft supporter… hahaha Last thursday i read the blog , so i downloaded again n installed it. too bad today i want to uninstalled it again.

    I would say, IE8 beta 1 cannot KO FF3!

    Beta 2 is going to release…. I m waiting for it!!

    I m really hope that in future :

    - The "Tab" and "Bookmarks" can be more powerful

    - A simple "duplicate tab" also havent got it rite now

    - Open a new tab is "slow motion"

    - Bookmark is not good support for Asian Language like Chinese!! so many years…. still worst performance

    - let user easier to upgrade from IE6 to IE8, many friends and users complaint to me about that.

    - cross platform!!!! please, think about this please, i m always "attack" by my colleague everyday bcos of this!!! :(

    Regards,

    Jason

  73. melvin pushard says:

    I am there to check anything new out,would be happy to be a tester 4 u guys ok.

  74. mocax says:

    I think it’s a bad idea to test ie8 beta1 with your main system.

    I did my tests in Virtual PCs.

    ie8b2 should be a little safer to use on your regular PCs

  75. Jim says:

    I have problem Google webpage. look at google logo while searching a website. Emulation of IE7 doesn’t work like IE7

  76. ebn says:

    I think I are able to test the new Beta 2 of the Internet Explorer. I found many websites, which are not able to show them correctly in the Beta 1, which I use every day with Internet Explorer 7. I am a webdesigner, who create websites especially for correctly work on Internet Explorer. Some of my created sites are not correctly showed by using the first Beta of IE, so I want to know, how I have to create my new Websites for the future.

  77. Stifu says:

    @ebn

    "I am a webdesigner, who create websites especially for correctly work on Internet Explorer. Some of my created sites are not correctly showed by using the first Beta of IE, so I want to know, how I have to create my new Websites for the future."

    Easy. Become a real web designer by making sites that actually respect standards, then add hacks for IE6 and 7.

  78. Joe Bugs says:

    "All Microsoft-Users are Betatester!!!!"

    This is so right!  Will Microsoft EVER get it right?

  79. Adam Baum says:

    What seperates great bug reports from pedestrian ones? Is it size? Telekinetic powers? An overinflated sense of the bug report’s worth? The number of chairs the bug report can throw? Inquiring minds want to know.

  80. MegaRed says:

    Ellison Burnett realiza un llamamiento a través del blog de Internet Explorer, en el que pone en conocimiento que Microsoft está expandiendo su programa de betatesters para la próxima versión del navegador. Todos aquellos que quieran formar parte del

  81. Bill says:

    will you be implementing addons and have a website for it like addons.mozilla.org? i think if you do then people would dump firefox since the only reason they like firefox are the addons (plus the stability, then robustness, the leanness, no activex, etc.,).

  82. Charles says:

    Why is Microsoft asking for BetaTesters? Because everyone is migrating over to Firefox3.  MS really needs to update their methodology, opening up beta testing like it is a crown to be bestowed upon a select few doesn’t cut it anymore, there are way too many better alternatives out there today.

  83. @Draiz

    Of course, you are entitled to your own opinions about the matter. As I am.

  84. For ISVs testing Internet Explorer 8 , the team has set up a way to file bugs directly with the team.

  85. martinm79 says:

    It’s the first time, where i visit this Blog. I come from Germany.

    At first, i download me IE 8 and in few minutes i will see how it works. I’m too wonder.

    best regards from North Germany

    Martin Modlich

  86. dlh2009 says:

    I think that is dumb people have to sign up to be an IE 8 Beta tester. I have used IE ever since I have had Windows. I have also tested other versions of IE.

    I think IE needs be as fast or faster then Safari and FireFox. I have used both and they are really fast. If Microsoft want everybody to use IE then they need to start making it load as fast or faster then Safari and FireFox.

    Adding more secure features would be good to.

    Other then that I think IE is an okay Browser that still needs some work. More frequent releases would also be nice.

  87. Jack Sleight says:

    Although I would prefer an open beta, that’s obviously not the route you decided to go down, so fair enough, I see no benefit in wasting my my energy arguing.

    However, I sent the email last week, when will I hear back?

    Thanks,

    Jack

  88. fgh says:

    IE is the retared cousin of Netscape 3

  89. Lester says:

    Has valign on tables been fixed in IE8 Beta 2?

    I realize that Beta 2 isn’t out yet but I need to know if I need bother downloading/testing IE8 Beta 2.  If this feature is still broken my sites will still remain hosed thus there is no need to test.  However if this has been fixed I look forward to doing some testing.  Thanks

  90. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Jack: The beta is "open" insofar as anyone can download it.  

  91. ebn says:

    @ stifu – do you think really that I didn’t use standards for the best browsing like IE 6 or 7, I just want to test it, how I can change it.

  92. dlh2009 says:

    Why couldn’t there be some kind of filter in IE 8 that blocks out common viruses that is updated everyday to block more viruses?

    Or a way for IE 8 to see what websites have viruses attached to them, in search engines for example, so people are protected from them?

    This would surpass FireFox and Safari in Security.

  93. Kirk M says:

    Already a member of Microsoft Connect so I can pick and choose what project I wish to test but thanks for the invite anyway.

  94. Jack Sleight says:

    @EricLaw: Sorry, yes you’re right, I really meant an open registration for reporting bugs. Being able to test the beta release is useless if I have no way of reporting bugs when I find them.

  95. Frank says:

    @Kirk M – that’s the whole issue, no you can’t.  It is purely by INVITE only.  An exclusive club.

    Although it looks like they want more participation because people have no faith in the system staying active after release.

  96. Justin says:

    I hope beta2 will not only have a new look, but also be an internet browser that doesn’t consume too much resources/uses as less resources as possible. and a browser that is responsive or almost impossible to crash…

    I want IE8 BETA 2 NOW!!! IM SO EXCITED TO TRY IT!

  97. Stifu says:

    @ebn

    I don’t think we’re talking about the same "standards"…

    See: http://validator.w3.org/

    Make sure your site validates and works fine with standards-compliant browsers (Firefox is a good reference, and hopefully IE8 beta 2 will be one too), then use hacks (conditional comments or underscore/star hacks) to fix any rendering bugs you may have with IE6/7.

  98. @ Stifu

    > then use hacks (conditional comments or underscore/star hacks) to fix any rendering bugs you may have with IE6/7.

    Resorting to conditional comments in order to target specific versions of IE with on-purpose, custom-tailored stylesheet is ok, is acceptable. Although I think people should be using conditional comment sparingly, only when it’s necessary.

    Underscore CSS hack and star CSS hack (and other types of CSS hacks) is not recommendable, is definitely not best. Those hacks are just exploiting, relying on incorrect implementations of the CSS parser. And IE 8 is supposed to fix all these incorrect implementations of the CSS parser.

    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug90

    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug91

    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/#bug100

    dev.moonhenge.net/bugs/ie8/css/hacks/ie7-hacks.html

    connect’s IE beta feedback as bug 350523

    Generally speaking, CSS hacks are not recommendable because once a browser manufacturer fixes the bugs (incorrect implementations in the CSS parser) on which they are based on, then the webpage may no longer "work" for new versions of the browser; the page layout may break in new versions of the browser. So, CSS hacks are not forward-compatible, are not future-proof.

    "In mid October, the IE Blog urged developers to stop using CSS hacks to workaround IE’s problems, and start relying on Microsoft’s proprietary conditional comments."

    http://www.webstandards.org/2005/11/03/ie7-conditional-comments/

    "We ask that you please update your pages to not use these CSS hacks. If you want to target IE or bypass IE, you can use conditional comments ."

    blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/10/12/480242.aspx

    One last thing. Targeting and developing for IE 6 is less and less a defendable design decision, including from a web design budget perspective. IE 6 visitors should be invited (diplomatically and by addressing their intelligence) to upgrade or to switch. What matters is that the webpage is accessible (meets basic, elementary WCAG 1.0 guidelines: content is accessible, navigation functionality is accessible). Visitors with old browsers or non-compliant browsers should be warned that the webpage may not render perfectly, may not be formatted exactly as intended in old and non-compliant browsers but will have nevertheless its content accessible and its navigation functional.

    Regards, Gérard

  99. MPetrovic says:

    "Generally speaking, CSS hacks are not recommendable because once a browser manufacturer fixes the bugs (incorrect implementations in the CSS parser) on which they are based on, then the webpage may no longer "work" for new versions of the browser; the page layout may break in new versions of the browser. So, CSS hacks are not forward-compatible, are not future-proof."

    K, how does that make using them to specifically target old, no longer updated browsers, a bad thing?

    You write future-proof code by doing it to standards in the first place, and then hack it to make it backwards compatible with older browsers that show quirks. IE6 isn’t going to be updated such that these quirks are no longer there. The star hack is going to work right up until the last person dumps IE6.

    You’re swinging the word exploit around when what we’re really trying to do is workaround bugs in the implementation. Nobody WANTS to fill their code with star and underscore nonsense.

    As it stands, there’s no way to implement IE only css in a css file. I try to keep different aspects of my sites separate, if for no other reason than I can find it easier. I really don’t want to have 3 separate sheets for each site element (one for IE6, one for IE7, and one for standards) cluttering up my site. Especially if those extra IE-only sheets would only contain 5 or less lines.

    "relying on incorrect implementations of the CSS parser. And IE 8 is supposed to fix all these incorrect implementations of the CSS parser."

    So what’s the harm? IE8 will ignore the rules intended for IE6 and IE7 only. Good. If it’s as standards-compliant as the competitors, great. It can continue ignoring the hacks.

    Is future-proof really the right word? It makes it sound like these hacks will have a negative impact on the display of compliant browsers, when really they’re just ignored. Maybe we should be using future-relevant. CSS hacks are not future-relevant: they will be ignored, and have no effect on the rendering of the page.

  100. jim says:

    We need rounded corners on table cell without using images.

  101. Jana Vasseru says:

    @Gérard Talbot

    > One last thing. Targeting and developing for IE 6 is less and less a defendable design decision, including from a web design budget perspective. IE 6 visitors should be invited (diplomatically and by addressing their intelligence) to upgrade or to switch.

    a) Currently IE6 "marketshare" is roughly the same as IE7 "marketshare".

    b) How exactly should i (as a web designer) invite people to upgrade? Is IE available for W2k? or W98? no and it never will, neither IE7 nor IE8. So you say that people should by new hardware, OS and install all that just to view my site correctly?

  102. > Nobody WANTS to fill their code with star and underscore nonsense.

    Agreed… but maybe not for the same reasons

    > As it stands, there’s no way to implement IE only css in a css file.

    Why should you anyway? Why should you to begin with? It’s a lot better to modularize, centralize the bug fixes and bug workarounds for IE-only in a distinct stylesheet. You help/promote/assist website and code maintenance that way.

    <!–[if IE 7]>

     <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="screen" href=

     "[path]/BugFixForIE7Only.css">

     <![endif]–>

    > I really don’t want to have 3 separate sheets for each site element (one for IE6, one for IE7, and one for standards) cluttering up my site. Especially if those extra IE-only sheets would only contain 5 or less lines.

    I would want and would prefer to have one additional stylesheet (specifically designed and aimed at) for workaround IE 7 implementation bugs only, regardless of the number of lines it would contain. I would prefer to have "n" lines of IE-only workarounds, IE-only bug fixes gathered, centralized into one single file than to have "n" lines scattered here and there among another stylesheet.

    And such IE-only stylesheet for bug fixes would contain fixes or workarounds for IE 7 only bugs which are important, worthy of writing a stylesheet for, not just a minor misalignment (or offset) here, a barely noticeable (unimportant) gap there, an insignificant/negligeable border inconsistently redrawn there or a 1px dashed border which should be a 1px dotted border instead. There are lots of bugs in IE 7 which can have minor page layout impacts in a webpage, you know… and there are some differences in default/initial CSS property values that lots of web authors consider (or treat) as bugs.

    Regarding IE 6 and all its bugs, I would just forget about editing a custom stylesheet for IE 6 and would include a code conformance policy, an accessibility statement in which IE 6 would be identified as a true "bad" browser to use along with a graceful degradation explanation (access to content and navigation functionality should remain unaffected).

    The message the visitor should get, IMO, is that if (s)he wants a "first class" webpage experience, service, then (s)he should be using a "first class" browser or a "first class" browser version to begin with. (S)He is part of the web standards equation; with her/his choice of browser, (s)he plays an important role on the web.

    Browser manufacturers should follow and comply with W3C recommendations and fix implementation bugs when they are widely known, reproducible, testcase-ed, documented, etc… not years later.

    Web authors should write accessible, compliant and valid webpages to begin with and not over-code, not over-declare to achieve pixel-perfect rigid page layout in all browsers.

    Web-standards-compliance is mutually/reciprocally beneficial to web-standards-compliant parties on the web.

    Regards, Gérard

  103. Stifu says:

    Gérard: yes, of course, hacks should only be used when really necessary. That’s what I first typed, actually, but for some reason, the IEBlog wouldn’t let me post replies anymore. It just redirected me to the blog index after I submitted my post…

    Anyway, I prefer conditional comments myself, but if you only have to add one or two specific properties for IE, it’s a bit of a waste to make a separate CSS file just for that. However, unlike you, I think underscore/star hacks are mostly future proof: IE8 won’t support them and, supposedly, you won’t need them anymore for IE8 anyway. So all is good. Hopefully.

  104. Meander says:

    release IE BETA 2…so sick of waiting!

  105. boybeng says:

    Thiết kế web, thiet ke web, Thiết kế website, thiet ke website, design

  106. boybeng says:

    Quảng bá website – Thiết kế website – Thiết kế website đẹp!

  107. atomic1fire says:

    Good to know that the release is soon,

    I prefer firefox because of the level of customization,

    I would like to offer two suggestions to make IE8 (and later versions) better

    let me (and every other user) change the entire top area, Sticking the navigation stuff on top and glueing it there was a dumb Idea in my honest oppinion, earlier versions of IE let you move the navigation bar and I generally prefer it on the bottom including the searchbar.

    Keep XP support atleast until people like vista or the next better version of windows whichever comes first , vista has had some critism and many people still prefer XP and locking people out of browsers that support better standards is a bad idea. it just breeds contempt for worse standards on webpages, and more pain for developers, and crappier viewing for users, when more pages support standards and their browser that they think is the internet does not.

  108. ebn says:

    @ stifu – i know the normally w3 standards, but thats not only the one reason for a functonally site but I don’t want to quarrel with you, ok?

  109. Stifu says:

    @ebn

    I’m not there to quarrel either, I just thought I’d help. IE8 is supposed respect CSS 2.1 very well, so that only leaves IE6 and 7 as real annoyances. If you make a site that works with Firefox (not using CSS3 or other features not found in IE), there are good chances it’ll also work fine with IE8. So all is good.

    Make sure to build your site for standards-compliant browsers first, then add exceptions for IE 6/7, NOT the other way around.

  110. Les says:

    Do these standard developments in IE 8 mean that the HR tag will finally be able to be given a 0 margin? Opera, Safari, and Firefox all get this right (although by default they display HRs differently for some reason – apparently the standard wasn’t specific enough).

    At least the differences between HR rendering isn’t anywhere near as bad as trying to apply styles to an ISINDEX tag (yeah, one of those things nobody uses).

  111. Marty says:

    Regarding all the comments about targeting CSS for specific IE versions there is another option that is gaining mass appeal.**

    On the first access of your site/app redirect through a quick sniffer page that updates the users’ session with browser info (e.g. vendor, version, etc.)

    After that point, you just serve up the appropriate JS/CSS for that combo, with no issues.

    ** This requires that (a) your visitors have JavaScript enabled however most apps these days need this anyway, (b) your "sniff" is accurate in returning the correct combo (e.g. not mistakening Opera (with great standards support) for say IE7 (with lousy standards support).

  112. Stifu says:

    Marty: sniffing is old and bad… It’s definitely the wrong way to get a site to work right, for many reasons (and User Agent strings are not reliable).

    For example, I use Minefield (Firefox trunk) at home, and when I want to check my hotmail inbox, the site tells me my browser isn’t up to date and may not work with the site, while it works just fine (but at least they let me get through the warning, which most sniffing sites don’t do).

    Conditional comments are indeed a way to "sniff" IE, but they’re only for IE (undoubtedly the worst browser by far) and always work right (not mistaking Opera for IE or anything), and don’t require JavaScript.

  113. MPetrovic says:

    "Regarding IE 6 and all its bugs, I would just forget about editing a custom stylesheet for IE 6 and would include a code conformance policy, an accessibility statement in which IE 6 would be identified as a true "bad" browser to use along with a graceful degradation explanation (access to content and navigation functionality should remain unaffected)."

    A lofty goal, but sometimes there’s no choice in the matter. I’m currently working on a government site. I can’t just ignore IE6 and pretend it doesn’t exist. IE6 makes up about half of my user base.

    On non-commercial sites, yes. I don’t bother debugging IE6 on my personal stuff, just make it legible. And I don’t support any javascript on my site in IE6 either. If it doesn’t work, oh well.

    But when working commercially, the excuse ‘oh, its a bad browser’ doesn’t cut it.

  114. WolfpackFan says:

    I am hoping that when Beta 2 comes out that it greatly improves the user interface. The IE7/8 interface is terrible IMO. The bookmark organizer is not very user friendly and the RSS reader doesn’t auto update (at least for me). It seems to me that both FF and Microsoft spend an awful lot of time make changes to internals that don’t make a whole lot of difference to your average user. FF came out with version 3 that was actually slower than FF2. Ridiculous. Come on folks pay some attention to the actual people that use the browser rather than all of the developers.

  115. Richard Fink says:

    Sent in an email requesting to be a tester over a week ago with as yet no response.

    No automated "thanks! we’ll get back to you!" no nothing.

    Where is the selection process at?

  116. The same says:

    @Richard Fink

    That’s the same attitude they [MSIE team] posed when the tester submitted the bugs.

  117. Eduardo Valencia says:

    Guys can you pass this to the Windows team? i know it isn’t for this thread but i don’t know other place to post my needs for Windows 7.

    Thank you

    ————————-

    - Animated log-on screen

    - Show a clock on log-on screen

    - Ability for animated flip instant account switch (No log-on screen intermediate process)

    - Better file system (Better than NTFS) that won’t require defragmentation.

    - Internet Explorer : Full CSS 3.1 standards compliance,SVG support,HTTP Pipelining,Integrate multiple separate windows into tabs and viceversa,3D tab switching (optional,could work alongside Flip3d),spellchecker, in-line search, download manager,faster rendering engine,better add-on interface manager (similar to firefox).

    - Strict 3rd party driver hardware installation policies,automatic driver diagnostic tool to determine the quality of the written driver.

    - Option to restore default services running on memory configuration (services.msc )

    - Preload similar services and applicatios from different accounts before user logs in the Welcome screen

    (Reduced boot time)

    - Ability to undock playlist from Windows Media Player. (More compact interface),more skins.

    - Ability for synchornized work between perfomance features (Readyboost,Readydrive,Superfetch)

    - Computarized service AI module,(this module will disable uneeded services based upon usability of the OS in time).

    - Full modularity

    - Constant hardware analisis and reports,adding it to the windows error reporting tool function process.

    - Animated UAC prompt,less intrusive (fade effect?)

    - Root out old windows icons and interfaces from future relases like windows 7, (istartedsomething)

  118. World says:

    We need rounded corners on table cell without using images.

  119. Obul says:

    Release Early, Release Often

    is the best strategy to get more testers.

  120. Jaspreet says:

    Another problem in IE8 Beta is of sessions.

    Frequently it happens with me that the session remains on one single page/window for some sites. For e.g. while accessing Web Outlook, I logged on to mail succesfully but whenever I opened any link or any message that opens in a new window, i get back to the login page, which means session does not gets transferred to the new window. this issue is not only with web outlook but various other sites

  121. Richard Fink says:

    @The same

    "That’s the same attitude they [MSIE team] posed when the tester submitted the bugs."

    If you feel that my comment illustrates an "attitude", that’s your interpretation, not mine.

    Microsoft is a business that answers to paying customers and they are not obligated to deal with me in any way outside of my relationship with them as a licensee of Windows, Office, etc…

    I just wanted to know, having sent in an email, what was up with becoming a beta tester, that’s all.

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

  122. Daniel says:

    My own mail has been sent on sunday and I didn’t get a response yet. But what are 5 days? They could be waiting for Beta2 to be released first so no bugs that are already fixed get reported.

    There surely are more people interested in testing now.

  123. James says:

    When is release?? I would love to test …

  124. gabe says:

    James as far as i know ie8 beta 2 is this month(would not be suprised if it slipped to september

    as for ie final it probably wont be relased until november at the earliest is my guess and probably no later then febarary

  125. @MPetrovic

    >> CSS hacks are not forward-compatible, are not future-proof.

    > K, how does that make using them to specifically target old, no longer updated browsers, a bad thing? (…)

    > IE8 will ignore the rules intended for IE6 and IE7 only. Good. If it’s as standards-compliant as the competitors, great. It can continue ignoring the hacks.

    I re-read all this, made some tests and you are right. I misunderstood CSS hacks: they can be forward-compatible. But I still prefer (and still recommend) a custom, dedicated stylesheet for working around bugs regarding a specific IE version: that way, it makes website maintenance, webpage code maintenance and webpage code review by others a lot more sensible, rational than some weird looking/unexplained CSS code which are not self-explanatory by themselves. Why some voice-family declaration here, why declare overflow: hidden there, why some weird looking css comment there, etc? This isn’t clean, clear code practices..

    @Shelley

    >> IE 8 now uses the best, most web standards support as its default rendering mode: this major decision came as a surprise to most of us and out of 600 messages posted in IE blog in reaction to such decision, I don’t recall a single negative one against such swindle.

    > Sorry that didn’t translate well, I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

    You’re right. I misworded that pretty bad. I should have said turnover or 180 degrees change of orientation instead of "swindle". For the previous sentences, IE blog spoke, explained it better:

    "We’ve decided that IE8 will, by default, interpret web content in the most standards compliant way it can. This decision is a change from what we’ve posted previously. Why Change? (…)"

    blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/03/microsoft-s-interoperability-principles-and-ie8.aspx

    March 3rd 2008, Dean Hachamovitch, General Manager Internet Explorer

    which generated over 600 replies posted. I read most of those 600 replies/comments and I do not recall reading one single comment clearly speaking against such decision taken by IE team/IE project managers.

    @ MPetrovic

    > I’m currently working on a government site. I can’t just ignore IE6 and pretend it doesn’t exist. IE6 makes up about half of my user base.

    Any site (mine, yours, government, commercial ones) should have an accessibility statement (and follow it!) and some sort of a code conformance policy, privacy statement, etc. Furthermore a government site, portal. Most likely the best one in that area is the New-Zealand government with its e-online services.

    MPetrovic, I still believe and claim that IE 6 users should be diplomatically and wisely invited to upgrade or to switch, otherwise to expect minor or moderate layout problems (a strange gap here, an unexpected offset there, a border not redrawn/repainted after scrolling, a 1px dashed border instead of a 1px dotted border, etc.) … and they nevertheless should always expect a site – any site – to comply with basic WCAG 1 guidelines which strongly insist of content remaining accessible and navigation links remaining functional regardless of browser in use or javascript support (bad or disabled or inexistent) or CSS support (buggy or disabled or inexistent).

    One of the major problems on the web is web authors over-excessively coding to render their pixel-perfect-rigid webpage layout in old, buggy browsers or browser versions. In the web standards equation, each party should not overreach, overdo, should not exceed what it’s supposed to do; web authors often go too far trying to work around bugs which are not detrimental to the purpose of a webpage. And so they over-code, over-declare, bloat webpage code with all kinds of ugly hacks, additional wrapping <div>s, <br>, etc.

    2 thirds of users at useit.com in 2005

    http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html

    reported problems experienced in webpages related to insufficiently large font-size (too small and/or frozen, not resizable) and insufficient color contrast between background and text: such problems are still very much present today in lots of webpage. Such problems have very little to do with current browser bugs.

    Serious bugs (dataloss, CPU hang, crash, infinite loop, content disappearing, peekaboo, guillotine, content or layers moving, shifting position, content overlapping, etc.) occuring in IE 7 version should be dealt with, tackled and addressed by, say, a custom+dedicated stylesheet oriented by a conditional comment: that’s fully understandable.

    In the final instance, it remains in the best interests of users to constantly use the latest available version of their browser of choice (and for any software they use) for countless of very good reasons (better security, bug fixes, optimization, etc).

    Regards, Gérard

  126. Jaspreet says:

    Ah and i would also like to add another comment to my session problems above:

    if i have opened 2-3 or more different sites in a single window with different tabs, and i have logged in all of them, then if i log out from any 1 domain/site, i get looged out from all other sites. pretty strange, is anybody else suffering from this issue?

  127. Lloyd says:

    I’ve just finished reading dozens of comments telling me that the IE Feedback site is broken (architecturally).  Can someone from the IE Team either indicate when these fixes will take place or when the Feedback site will be replaced with a permanent solution?

    I would like to participate but it sounds like the system isn’t ready for prime time yet.

    Is it still in Beta too?

    Please respond as there is little response from the MSFT on this thread.

  128. Elias Sorensen says:

    I hope that IE 8 Beta 2 will offer a standalone installation option. I think that most of the testers would appreciate that.

    Also.. Inline search would be great (as I run it as a plugin now).

  129. gabe says:

    Elias Sorensen

    i highly doubt standalone install will ever be supported officially

    teh best you can expect is the emulate ie7 button becoming part of some extra addonn

  130. Germ says:

    I cared not what add-on will IE have but how standard-compliant IE is. Does IE team ever test its browser against standard?

    It’s not MS’ www. It’s everyone’s. Stop dreaming and start acting!

  131. Chris says:

    So…What’s new? Haven’t heard from the IE Team in a while? Still around?

  132. Beta says:

    I think if you combine statistics for IE6 and IE7, the IE takes up %80+ of the market.  However seperate, I’d say IE7 is around %47 and I IE6 is around %30.

    However, Opera > Firefox > IE > Safari.

  133. Daniel says:

    Next try.

    I hope Beta 2 will be released this week as I’m very eager to test it!

  134. chauffeur2 says:

    I have had Internet Explorer Beta 1 deployed on three test machines for about 5 weeks now, and have found it to be superb.

    IE8 Beta deployed easily on every machine; one of which we made the ‘quantum leap’ from IE6 without hitches, whereas IE7 would not install as the particular computer already had SP3 installed.

    Looking forward to the next beta phase.

    Congratulations this IE is a winner!!

    Kind Regards,

  135. IEwin says:

    IEBlog is the only place that I can share my comments!

    It’s so uncomfortable (and stupid) to wait for IE 8 beta (and IE 8, too!), I want a true release date! Not just "August" or "Q3 2008"!

    Hope that It’ll be improved!

    Best wishes!!

  136. janebush08 says:

    I can understand IE is facing lots of bugs and need time to fix them… But it should be done at the earliest moment as other competitors are getting hold in the market…

  137. Daniel says:

    @chauffeur2:

    August is the release time for Beta2, the feedback from this Beta will directly influence the actual release date of the Final IE8.

    I think that’s a better way than setting a date and then release a unfinished product, don’t you think so?

  138. Jake says:

    HURRY UP GUYS! I CAN’T WAIT ANY LONGER RELEASE IE8 BETA2~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  139. notjanebush08 says:

    "as other competitors are getting hold in the market"?!?!?!?!

    What?!?!?!? Are you serious? The other browsers are STOMPING ALL OVER THE MARKET!… have been for years! where have you been? IE has been in catchup mode for 3 1/2+ years now!

    Very first download after a windows install is *ANY* other browser.  IE is as exciting as sour milk these days.

  140. Ted says:

    @notjanebush08– "The other browsers are STOMPING ALL OVER THE MARKET!… have been for years!"

    Uh, except that IE has 400% of the marketshare of all other browsers combined…

  141. Microsoft is looking for a few good men and women. A few good testers to punch holes in their new release of Internet Explorer 8. If you’ve read this blog or heard the rumors about IE8’s potential issues with already-existing applications then you may

  142. 1921 says:

    UI changes, been in contact with several MS employee’s and they have stated there will be UI changes, but what I read there will be very little. That’s a major problem the UI for IE 7 and Vista is horrid, so that leaves IE 8 and windows 7 so what did Microsoft do put the woman who came up with the ribbon in charge of the UI not too brilliant considering that the ribbon has not been well received.  I would just like to see Microsoft listen to it’s beta testers, in the beta’s of IE 7 a lot of testers said UI is horrid, Microsoft said but we like the UI. In the beta’s of Vista a lot of testers said UI is horrid, Microsoft said no we like the new UI.  MICROSOFT MOST PEOPLE DON’T LIKE THE NEW UI. PLEASE LISTEN TO THEM GO BACK TO WHAT WAS STANDARD FOR TWENTY YEARS AND WHAT WORKED, THAT IS WHAT WINDOWS IS ABOUT A STANDARD, LETS KEEP WHAT WORKED OR AT THE VERY LEAST LET USERS CHOOSE….

  143. huangwei says:

    hi,There is a problem when I use ie8 beta.

    when I right click on a web page,ie8 crash immedially and report encoutering a problem

    system:window vista home basic…

  144. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @huangwei– Problems like the one you’ve reported are typically caused by buggy add-ons.  Try running in no-addons mode and see if the problem goes away.  

    http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/troubleshoot.asp#crash

  145. Steven Sinofsky și Jon DeVaan au lansat proiectul E7 , un blog despre Windows 7. Aici vor fi anunțate

  146. A contrast in approaches: The IE team says "If you wish to be a part of making IE better by contributing great bug reports then please email us at IESO&#64;microsoft.com and tell us a little about yourself including why you’d be a great beta tester."

  147. こんにちは、五寳です。 本日 US IE Team が中間ビルドとして、IE8 December Patner Build というものをリリースしました。 このビルドは Beta 2 と次のマイルストーン