IE8 Beta 2 Coming in August


In addition to the features for developers we showed in IE8 Beta 1, we’ve been working on great new features for consumers and IT professionals (as well as doing even more cool stuff for developers). I’m happy to announce that we’re on track to deliver IE8 Beta 2 this August when you’ll get a chance to see what we’ve been up to in these areas. Furthermore, in order to help us get even more feedback for this global product, we’ll be releasing Beta 2 in over twenty languages within a month of the initial release. This is a big step up from the three languages we released for beta 1 and much more than we ever did during IE7.

On behalf of the team, I’d like to thank you all for your help with beta 1. Since we released Beta 1 in March we’ve had over two million downloads so far with lots of good, useful feedback. We’ve been listening to that feedback and making improvements to our work on an interoperable platform that has full CSS 2.1 support, faster script performance, and significantly more capable developer tools as well as our cool new features like Activities and Web Slices. We’ve learned a lot from this first beta – keep the comments coming please!

Between now and August, there are a few ways you can prepare your sites for Beta 2. First, take advantage of Activities and Web Slices on your site. Second, make sure your site looks great in IE8; as you may recall, IE8 will use our new, more standards-compliant layout and rendering engine for strict doctype pages by default. This may cause IE8 to layout pages differently than IE7 did. If you haven’t had a chance to test your pages yet or don’t want to make changes yet, remember that you can have your site tell IE to use our IE7 layout engine for your strict doctype pages by adding the X-UA-Compatible http header to your HTTP headers or on a per document basis. You can learn more about how to ensure site compat with IE8 on our new IE Compat pages.

Tony Chor
Group Program Manager

P.S. In case you’re curious here’s the list of languages/locales we’re planning on for beta 2. We’ll keep evaluating the list based on our progress.

Arabic
Chinese (Hong Kong)
Chinese (Simplified)
Chinese (Traditional)
Czech
Danish
Dutch
English
Finnish
French
German
Greek
Hebrew
Hungarian
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Norwegian
Portuguese (Brazil)
Portuguese (Portugal)
Polish
Russian
Spanish
Turkish
Swedish

Edit: Add “released” to second paragraph; replaced “host” with “HTTP” in last paragraph

Comments (102)

  1. stevewebdev says:

    So, will IE8 Beta 2 fix all the regressions we see in IE8 Beta 1?

    e.g. valign in table cells, and that nasty link jumping that causes IE8Beta 1 to be unusable?

  2. Rag says:

    Looking forward to see the next release. How long will the beta 2 period last before a final release date? Even a guesstimate would be fine.

    Thanks

  3. @stevewebdev: IE8 beta 2 will be significantly better than IE8 beta 1. We weren’t done then with all of our known work items in the new layout engine which caused a bunch of the issues people saw.

    @Rag: Our final release date will depend highly on what the feedback on beta 2 is.

  4. John says:

    How do I select a printer and a printer tray to print to with IE 8.0?

  5. If migration to IE7 Compat ie text/x-scriptlet and objects killed all our income and business, will IE8 also do the same?

    Whers is MS on this? and just how do they intend to support us all who used for years objects (<object type="text/x-scriptlet" width=160 height="600" data="/_ba/ak_5/160/01.html"></object>) like this for centralized contem management?

    Who is going to cover the millions of $$$ in losses?

    Suggestion: Why doesn’t MS take on a project to centralize a simple code to convert millions of pages so customers can see my pages?

    Thanks, alexandersauction.com Web Team Manager

    An AOPUS Web Services users team member

  6. It’s good to see the renewed interest from the IE team! I never thought I’d see the first IE8 beta appear so quickly after IE7 was formally released.

    I haven’t played with the beta as much as I’d like to, but the primary reason behind that is the UI. Does IE8 really have to take on IE7’s goofy UI with the unmovable, unchangeable toolbar at the top and everything else underneath it? Is there any way this could be a choice, or something that changes to match the Windows OS that Internet Explorer is running on?

    Finally, is there a good place to see web slices in use? I tried to find them when the blog posting mentioning them first came out, but I couldn’t figure out how to use them or even how to know if a site supported "slices".

  7. Jon says:

    Do you anticipate this being the final beta? Or does that just dependent on the number of issues discovered?

  8. stevewebdev says:

    I hope that Beta 2 is _NOT_ the final beta before the RC’s are out.  If anything in the history of IE7 development has done, it should be that there needs to be several levels of betas and RC’s before a final release.

    If Beta 3 is regression free, supports some level (CSS3/filter:alpha) opacity and has all the chrome issues fixed (including the unmovable toolbars), then, and only then is an RC build a valid next option. 1-3 RC’s depending on any issues found, then a final RTM release.  Based on a Beta 2 in August being successful/actually usable, this would put the ETA on the IE8 RTM around Q2/Q3 2009.

    I certainly hope all the remaining .getElementById() bugs are fixed, as are the .get/setAttribute() bugs (yes, the ones in strict "better" standards mode)

    Its likely a long shot for those of us that follow this blog/feedback regularly, but I would really like to see prototyping working for all elements in IE8 RTM.  No more of this non-ECMAScript object stuff.

  9. lancenz says:

    @alexandersauction – grow up. Like the world moved on from black and white TV’s, so will the world move on from old versions of IE. It is not microsoft’s problem that you used a strange way of developing your site. I’m sick to death of listening to people moan on this blog about how bad MS is for this and that. Grow up and join the real world. Life, death, taxes and bugs in software. The 4 things a developer can never avoid.

  10. @alexandersauctions: The environment keeps evolving, so we’ve had to make changes to compensate. While scriptlets were useful, they were being exploited in malicious ways, so we had no choice but to remove support. You can do most if not all of the same things with behaviors as well. I wish we could write a tool to programmatically fix or otherwise address compat issues, but the problem is that we can’t tell programatically what the design/functional intent is for a given page (otherwise we’d build that code into IE); for example, is the author relying on the current getElementByID behavior or the more standard-behavior of getElementByID in IE8 and other browsers?

    @unexpectedbill: You can find some webslices like eBay and Facebook here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/webslices.mspx

    @jon: As I mentioned, our plans past beta 2 are really dependent on what we learn in the beta.

  11. Ian says:

    @alexandersauctions: You need to start learning web design/development. Your complaining, but your website is of very poor quality and build. Obviously put together by someone with limited knowledge.

    Start reading up on some tutorials from sites such as:

    http://www.smashingmagazine.com and http://www.webdesignerwall.com

    I don’t mean to be harsh, but you need to learn more about the subject before complaining.

  12. SiSL says:

    I’m so waiting for fixes of named anchors and anchor with display: block options to be fixed. Those get me nuts on my new designs 🙂

  13. Arn says:

    Is there likely to be an Activities directory where we can see which activities are new or popular?

    Something like the current offering, but expanded?

    http://ie.microsoft.com/activities/en-en/default.aspx

    I really liked that Activity contributed by domcat in the last expert chat…

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/08_0515_ez_ie8.mspx

  14. Chris says:

    Any chance of a timetable for things like XForms, XBL, HTML 5, and other new items? Or are these off the table for IE8?

  15. Gyrobo says:

    Since you’ve committed to having "full CSS 2.1 support", can you then confirm that you’re going to support CSS quotes and the Q element?

  16. Devon Young says:

    Wow, you’re aiming for FULL CSS 2.1?? I really like the sound of that.

  17. Daniel says:

    What about support for "opacity" in CSS? I really don’t like whole filter workaround.

    This "opacity" is supported by EVERY normal engine (browser). Gecko, Presto, KHTML and WebCore understand that.

  18. Adriaan Nel says:

    Will beta 2 have support for XHTML, and will it be faster than beta 1?

    Beta 1’s interaction with site elements were extremely slow…

  19. Armin Müller says:

    Any chance of a timetable for SVG

  20. Daniel says:

    Yeah, SVG would be nice. Again… that is supported by every common engine.

  21. Good news, but for some reason my language/locale isn’t included :(.

  22. Mog0 says:

    You say the new more standards complient rendering mode will be enabled by default when using a "strict doctype". Does that mean that if you are using a transitional doctype, e.g.:

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC `-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN` "+"`http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd`>

    then you won’t enable the new rendering mode?

  23. Cette date est annoncée sur le blog de MSDN. Cette deuxième bêta sera, dans le courant du mois qui suivra sa mise à disposition, disponible en une vingtaine de langues.

  24. hAl says:

    Support for JPEG XR/HD Photo please.

    It is a Microsoft produced format so lets start supporting it.

    The use of smaller pictures reducing load on servers and reducing costly traffic is very appealing.

  25. Jon says:

    Why does the Connect site need to know my name, email, country and street address(!) before it will even let me the bug tracker for the IE8 beta?  I’m curious as to what MS employees would think if  a non-MS company producing some software they used acted in this way?

  26. Brian LePore says:

    I’m actually very much happy about this, but who do I communicate with to help me figure out why loading the IE8 JavaScript debugger completely locks up Internet Explorer for me? Same thing happened to me for IE7 when I had the JS debugger installed.

    Running Vista Business with SP1 (though I had this issue before SP1).

    Only thing I beg for is that you PLEASE look into supporting the W3C Range object and not just the IE TextRange object. This is by far the least compatible area of JavaScript between browsers that I have found. Sure an better events model would be great, but Ranges need far more work.

  27. Udo says:

    Tony, would you tell us what codename the render engines had, the former was called trident, as I remember.

    Regards,

    Udo

  28. Snoel says:

    I have noticed some windows that are being created from one process launching a new process. This requires me to to login as I have lost my session cookie. Is this something that has been identified as an issue? P.S. Good work by the way.

  29. stevewebdev says:

    @mog0 fear not, using any valid doctype will work, including specifically the transitional ones that most web apps use so that iframe targeting etc. actually works.

    Just be aware that although IE8Beta1 has vastly improved the DOM methods for .getElementById (@Tony Chor: pls note the spelling) and .setAttribute() there are still some bugs, and setting inline event handlers still doesn’t work at all.

    @MS I think we would all highly benefit from a "changelog" list of the expected fixes in IE8Beta2.  I would like to start adjusting my code so that my site will work/look right in IE8Beta2 (+ beyond), but I don’t want to make adjustments for things to work now (in IE8Beta1), if they are going to be fixed properly in IE8Beta2.  Likewise I have no intention of making code adjustments to "live" in my code forever, for a "beta" browser.

    Some insight as to what will be in the August release would be very much appreciated.

  30. hAl says:

    Am I correct in asuming that while the first beta was aimed at developers that the second beta wil be aimed at users with featues like:

    * Customizable GUI elements

    * Improved in page searches

    * Improved adress line behaviour

    * Spelling checking

    * Improved zoom

  31. Ivan says:

    Eventually have a Traditional Chinese version. Hopeful for the beta 2.

  32. @Gyrobo

    Support for Q element is bug 339078 at connect’s IE beta feedback. It’s bug #9 and #50 at my website. IE dev. team did not close bug 339078 so I assume it will be fixed for IE 8 final.

    Regards, Gérard

  33. Regarding CSS quotes, there is a YES for IE 8.0 (final release) in this page:

    msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc351024(VS.85).aspx

    So, I would assume that they will support the quotes property.

    Regards, Gérard

  34. Gyrobo says:

    Thanks, Gérard! I’m totally bookmarking that page.

  35. andyzei says:

    @Snoel

    Out of curiosity, how are you creating new windows such that they appear in new processes?

    In Beta 1, we only create new tab processes when a tab crashes, or when you click the blue ‘e’ from the task bar. Opening new tabs or pressing ctrl-n, or "open link in new window" will not create new processes.

    The general issue of sharing session cookies across tab processes is somethat that we’re aware of and working on a soution for. Thanks for the feedback!

    Andy

  36. Allan says:

    Like a couple of others I’ve picked out "full CSS 2.1" from the post. Really? That’s a massive undertaking. It would be absolutely outstanding if you guys can get there.

  37. MegaRed says:

    Microsoft ha anunciado oficialmente la fecha de lanzamiento de la beta de Internet Explorer 8. Una versión que ha sido anunciado en el blog oficial de Internet Explorer y que incluirá todas las características de la versión definitiva. La beta de In

  38. Jon Galloway says:

    Why doesn’t the IE team offer CTP releases or preview releases like the ASP.NET team (http://www.codeplex.com/aspnet/)?

  39. fr says:

    "Why doesn’t the IE team offer CTP releases or preview releases like the ASP.NET team (http://www.codeplex.com/aspnet/)?"

    Good question, the long time between beta 1 and beta 2 combined with the very poor bugtracking means its impossible to tell if your bugs are valid/known.

    Even closed source competitors like opera release weekly builds, 5 months between betas is ridiculous!

  40. Bravo! I will get the beta before I head back to school.

    Excellent job, Microsoft. I’m loving the consistent betas and quick-catchup you’re playing with the other browsers.

  41. Damian Shaw says:

    Will you be campaigning at all to make web slices or actives a standard part of all web browsers?

    As you may know, Firefox has supported them now through extensions since they were pretty much announced, but has no current plans to integrate them by default see:

    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421504

    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421218

    Is your feedback so positive on these that you see either of them as any more than a gimmick?

  42. rc says:

    OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY! OPACITY!

  43. mark says:

    why should i use IE8 and not firefox or opera.

  44. P Cause says:

    I’ve found the initial IE8 beta to be much buggier than I would have expected and it seemed to show that the MS team didn’t do much testing against top web sites before releasing.  We need to know that you are actually testing against the top sites before the next beta and that things WORK.  A second beta of crappy quality doesn’t help us and the Firefox folks seem to be able to release betas that actually mostly work and correctly render most sites.  I expect Microsoft to do at least as well.

    I am very worried about the compatibility issues.  It would be great if you could detect somehow that a site was intended for IE7 and automatically switch to IE7 rendering mode for the site.  AT the very least we need to be able to switch between modes without a restart to deal with the inevitable compatibility issues that will last for months if not years.

  45. SNoel says:

    Andy,

      I am launching them from a hosted application. Sometimes it works as it should…and sometimes it requires me to re-login as it has launched a new process. This application is running in my trusted zone and I have adjusted security items, as well as other IE optional settings looking for a "solution". So far, do to the sporadic nature of the issue, I have been unable to find a setting that has any effect. Please let me know if I can provide any additional information to you that will help. Thanks,

    Steve

  46. kevrichardson says:

    IE8 has potential. I will be happy to wait until Q2/Q3 for an RTM version if that’s what it takes to get it right. In the end what I want is a quality product that delivers accurate pages while using as little system memory as possible.

    So how does Firefox continue to pop out builds quickly. Two words…community development.

  47. hAl says:

    @kevrichardson

    Isn’t FF development mainly done by payed developers from the mozilla foundation and developers from the likes of Google.

  48. Jim says:

    I though IE8 sound so much hype. How come it doesn’t work if you click Google menu at Google.com and flickr image sizes. I’ve tried Emulation mode IE7. Not of them work too well.

    It’s shame I have switch Firefox everyday use.

  49. Mitch 74 says:

    @hAL: paid developers at Mozilla yes, some developers from Google too, but you forget about Linux distributions patching then proposing patches upstream. Also, extensions are developed for one version, and may end up integrated in the main build.

    You are also disregarding something big: the amount of testing, bug reporting and documentation done by the community.

    Cranking out a build is easy; cranking out a ‘not-bug-ridden’ build is another (in which a community of bug reporters is a huge asset). Ask the IE team how much flak they got for closing their bug tracker after IE 7 was released…

    Mitch

  50. Alistar says:

    I would just like to repeat other developers comments that:

    Not supporting min-width on select list elements is a MAJOR PAIN! in IE.  Why is this so darn hard to implement?

    I hate having to hack script into a page just to handle IE’s lame rendering engine.

    Ughh!

  51. Fiery Kitsune says:

    I would really like to some semblance of a download manager put into this release. There absolutely no excuse to not include a unified download interface in the modern browser market.

  52. fietsverzekering says:

    Yes, the Dutch language to! 🙂

  53. SNoel says:

    Andy,

      Some additional info for you. I notice when I launch IE8 that I get 2 iexplorer.exe processes running. One has much higher memory usage. If the process with the higher memory usage is terminated the lower memory use process will continue to run. However if the low memory process is terminated, both processes are killed. The re-login issue happens if that "extra" iexplorer is still running.

    Thanks,

    Steve

  54. garetjax says:

    I have installed and used to IE8 to determine our currently corporate website compliancy.  Its quite funny to be honest.  When I verify our site with FireFox and Other browsers their ‘standards’ compliancy seems too allow the tweaks to support old ie/netscape quirks and hacks to produce a webpage that renders nice.  However, IE8 seems to adhere to the actual definition of the DTD definition.  Is this the case?  Also, is there a method to disable auto resizing of the images in within the code source as I do not want a logo or etc resized by default – without having to resort to some meta tag compatibility mode?

  55. AlexeyGfi says:

    Hi! I have a question: I webprogrammer and need as looking forward, as stay in wide-standart peoples. So i need test my html-(js)-code in all popular browsers. Tell me: is it possible: to install two ver of IE: 7 and 8 on one computer?

    Thank U!

    Regards, Alexey.

  56. sgtaylor5 says:

    IE8 beta 1 looks good and I like the "Read Mail" button in the Command Bar, though I had to uninstall it (for now) because Windows Live Hotmail wouldn’t load all the way in some instances, and in others wouldn’t load at all. IE8 *is* a "beta", after all, so I’m not complaining.

    Looking forward to the final build. Using IE7 as default because Firefox 2.0.0.14 doesn’t render WLH’s Folder Bar correctly; the four elements are evenly distributed vertically with blue space in between each component, and not aligned from the bottom up (as in IE7) to give the folder list component more room. Firefox 3 probably will fix this.

    I don’t really care which OS/browser I use, just the one that works best for the hardware I have at the time. But I keep my data in platform-neutral formats, just in case I have to switch again.

  57. beqiraj.net says:

    Internet Explorer 8 Beta 2 Coming in August

  58. Marcelino says:

    Why Mozila firefox shows all favicon in its tabs, and IE don’t???? Somebody can answer me?

  59. Marcus says:

    @sgtaylor5 I’m not sure what the rendering issue is in Windows Live Hotmail, but it is likely a bug in the code, not the way Firefox renders it.

    If you’ve been developing web sites for a while, you’ll know that Firefox is darn near perfect for rendering content, and IE would have a hard time scoring a C+ in the rendering correctly department.  IE8 will likely be worthy of a B when it ships, but it is still a far way off being close to all the other Standards compliant browsers out there.

    @AlexeyGfi You can’t install 2 versions of IE because IE is incorrectly embedded into the OS to keep the DOJ happy.  You can run any version of IE in a virtual machine or virtual PC, or you can use a tool like IE Debug that allows you to use multiple rendering engines.  It isn’t perfect, but it does the job for the most part.

  60. Ted says:

    @Marcus: Get a clue– the DOJ was UNhappy that IE was embedded inside the OS… and since they haven’t even released a beta-2 yet, it seems stupid to try to guess what "grade" it’s soing to get– as if any grade wouldn’t be entirely arbitrary anyway…

  61. anony.muos says:

    This is your do or die chance as far as toolbar layout/position/button customization is concerned.

  62. Rich says:

    @Ted re: "it seems stupid to try to guess what "grade" it’s (g)oing to get"

    i don’t think that is true at all.  since microsoft give no info whatsoever about what is going to be in a release until it is out one can only guess.

    the fixes in ie8b1 over ie7 were good for sure, but there are many things that have been obviously broken for eons now that don’t even get acknowledged when talked about in this blog or in the chats or in the "bug tracking"<- (huge air quotes) system.

    personally i think a "B" would be a nice goal to achieve but i think that even that would be a bit of a lofty goal.

    but it doesn’t matter any more. developers moved on to better browsers years ago and quite honestly have no intention of ever returning to develop on IE.  i’ll test on IE to make sure my stuff works, but you’d have to raise my salary to $200,000/yr before i would dream of developing on IE.

  63. Eevee says:

    Possibly not relevant, but I might as well toss this into the ocean of comments and hope someone reads it.

    You are currently working on the latest version of, for better or worse, the most-used browser in the world.

    For the sake of the sanity of everyone with any interest whatsoever in typography, PLEASE fix the default font family and size in IE8.  Nobody wants to read the Web in Times New Roman, and yet IE (and thus every browser, for compatibility) continues to leave it as the default.  IE’s UI, all of Windows, and even this blog and all of microsoft.com use sans-serif fonts, so why is it unreasonable to make one the default in IE?

    16px is also absolutely gigantic for the casual viewer.  This leads to a lot of Web developers using "font-size: 76%" or similar, which in turn means that anyone who changes eir font settings to something reasonable faces a Web full of teeny 9px text.  Meanwhile, anyone with vision problems who wants to scale text UP has the opposite problem; any pages that try to respect default font size will be gigantic.  This is a completely ridiculous situation, and only you have the muscle to get away with fixing it.  Change the default to an easy-to-read sans-serif font at 11 or 12px, talk to Mozilla and Opera and Apple about doing the same in their next releases, and let developers put the choice of font back in the users’ hands.

  64. Glen says:

    "but it doesn’t matter any more. developers moved on to better browsers years ago and quite honestly have no intention of ever returning to develop on IE."

    Outside of your bubble, there are developers who use IE during the development process. The tools are behind to some extent and not as integrated (e.g. Microsoft Script Debugger and Fiddler), but it’s survivable. If you want to catch problems your users encounter, it’s important to use the same browser they do. Even if that browser makes you want to rip your hair out sometimes (e.g. IE 6 wierd rendering bugs, Firefox wierd innerHTML/Form input bugs).

    "Nobody wants to read the Web in Times New Roman"

    Translation: YOU don’t want to read the Web in Times New Roman.

    "Why Mozila firefox shows all favicon in its tabs, and IE don’t???? Somebody can answer me?"

    Perhaps the IE team took a cue from Apple and decided to make things "simple".

    "This is your do or die chance as far as toolbar layout/position/button customization is concerned."

    Seen what they did in Office 2007? See how they took away Toolbar Customization? Microsoft seems to have fallen in LOVE with the idea of taking away features power-users use. These aren’t new products, so this war against features seems silly.

  65. Omar says:

    Since you’re adding new stuff for developers, mind adding HSL color support?  It seems like it would be an easy thing to support and it would make it easier to choose colors during development.

  66. @Eevee

    > Nobody wants to read the Web in Times New Roman, and yet IE (and thus every browser, for compatibility) continues to leave it as the default.

    A very wide majority of web browser users do not mind, do not object to a web graphical browser having Times New Roman as its default font typeface. That’s true for IE users and that’s true for Firefox, Opera, Safari users.

    Others can still choose, set the default font typeface, including IE 8 users. IE 7+ complies and meets with guideline 4.2 parg #1 of W3C UAAG 1.0.

    "Times New Roman is a good example of a traditional typeface that has been adapted for use on computer screens. A serif typeface like Times New Roman (the default text face in most Web browsers) is about average in legibility on the computer screen, with a moderate x-height."

    webstyleguide.com/type/face.html

    > 16px is also absolutely gigantic for the casual viewer.

    This depends on several factors. Screen resolution is one factor. Age of user is another. For people under 40 years old, 16px is generally fine, adequate. For people under 40, 16px may be a bit big. Usability studies in the last 10 years all converge to say that the problem is not with too big font size but

    a) with non-resizable text in webpages and

    b) with too small font.

    "For this year’s list of worst design mistakes, (…) I asked readers of my newsletter to nominate the usability problems they found the most irritating. (…) About two-thirds of the voters complained about small font sizes or frozen font sizes;"

    Top Ten Web Design Mistakes of 2005

    1. Legibility Problems

    http://www.useit.com/alertbox/designmistakes.html

    > any pages that try to respect default font size will be gigantic

    Any pages that respect the user default font size will fit and will meet perfectly each and all of the visitor’s unique font-size preference. The wise thing to do therefore is to not interfere with the user’s preferred font-size and to use, to rely (deliberately, intentionally) on the user’s preferred font-size. A thing that many accessibility experts, tutorials, articles, etc.. have been saying over and over, again and again:

    "Size: respect the users’ preferences, avoid small size for content

    As a base font size for a document, 1em (or 100%) is equivalent to setting the font size to the user’s preference.(…)"

    W3C QA tip for webmasters

    Care with font-size

    http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size

    "If you do not specify any font size at all (as on the pages you are reading), text will appear in the default size that was selected by the user."

    Truth & Consequences of web site design: Font size

    pages.prodigy.net/chris_beall/TC/Font%20size.html

    > Change the default to an easy-to-read sans-serif font at 11 or 12px

    Lots of people would disagree with such decision. What you believe is easy-to-read font-size may not be the case for others. Personally, I have set my minimum font-size to 13px in all the browsers I use.

    > let developers put the choice of font back in the users’ hands.

    But this is already a reality for non-IE users. Microsoft could do more by

    – simplifying Browser Font Control just like Jakob Nielsen recommended many years ago (Jakob Nielsen’s Alertbox, August 19, 2002), a thing I detailed in channel9.msdn.com/Wiki/InternetExplorerFeatureRequests

    – implementing an user-settable minimum font-size feature

    – editing proper documentation targeting web developers regarding how to style font, font-size, etc.

    As far as I’m concerned, the nr 1 cause of problem regarding font, font-size is with web authors. The nr 2 (and I agree with you but not for the same reasons) is with IE.

    Regards, Gérard

  67. Correction: I meant to say

    For people OVer 40 years old, 16px is generally fine, adequate.

    Regards, Gérard

  68. Jim says:

    Top Ten IE8 mistakes.

    1. Javascript errors and crashes IE. Hackers could do more greater damages and crack security hole.

    2. There is no secure update shortcut button on IE8.

    3. No monthly patch updates on IE8.

    4. unable to uninstall ie8 beta.

    5. unable to reject future toolbars.

    6. people scare to buy things on online. Identity theives get smarter

    7. Forgot to add Virtual Earth plug in.

    8. Forgot to add first Child protection setting to block porngraphy, violence.

    9. picture save address book.

    10. Sometimes it the save setting doesn’t work on Microsoft live space page.

    MS pays employees $200,000 a year. Now I get this lousy crippleware IE8 beta. My browser is unable to catch up rival browers: Opera, Firefox. If they can’t catch up… they end up seeing another Google Internet browser.

  69. Mohammad says:

    Hello

    (Only Microsoft Internet Explorer)

    Please Support For Persian Language In Beta 2

    Please…

  70. Kamasama says:

    This all looks pretty interesting, but it’s going to take a lot for me to go back from Firefox 3. I hope you impress.

    I also hope you remove the IE7 layout engine from the final version. It makes sense to keep it in during this transition period, but keeping it in just seems like it would make developers lazy and not support IE8’s improved engine.

  71. Timothy Mok says:

    I used IE8 since its’ inception from 28 May, after Angeline’s birthday. Now, it is Beta 1. Please show up and will go to Beta 2 after that.

  72. Steve says:

    "Members" of the IE8 Bug Tracking Connect site were recently sent a link to download a "status report" of sorts.

    Instead of the typical PDF format, it was hosted in a .docx format.

    Can someone at [MSFT] indicate which program I need to use to open this? (Office 2002 chokes on it).  Better yet, since none of us need to edit it, can it be re-posted in PDF or HTML format so that we can all read it?! 😉

    Cheers!

  73. Steve says:

    @Glen: "Firefox wierd innerHTML/Form input bugs"….

    Care to elaborate? .innerHTML works fine for me in Firefox, and the form input support is about 375% better than IE.

  74. Yeee Haw!!! says:

    Finally! [MSFT] Indicates that their rushed comments in IE Feedback were incorrect!

    Some method (undeclared) of setting OPACITY will be in IE8 RTM!

    ====================

    "We need to clarify our earlier comment. At the time we considered this bug as a request for the specific CSS3 opacity mechanism, and that will not be part of IE8. However, this is also a request for some way of achieving opacity in Standards mode — "The alternative is to regress to IE7’s alpha filter support…" — and in that context our first comment would leave the wrong impression.

    The plan is for IE8 in Standards mode to have a way to set opacity. It won’t be exactly the same as in Strict mode, but it won’t be the CSS3 feature either. This was not in place for Beta 1.

    We regret any misunderstanding we have caused, and we hope this clarifies the situation.

    Thank you,

    The IE Team"

    ====================

    So long story short, don’t expect CSS3’s opacity to actually be supported by IE (even though every other browser supports it), but either the legacy filter:alpha() will return, or something similar so that sites actually work again.

    Great news! – I though MSFT had truly lost it for a while there.

  75. Glen says:

    "form input support is about 375% better than IE."

    Care to elaborate on THAT?

    ".innerHTML works fine for me in Firefox"

    The problem I encountered was like this: Set innerHTML of a DIV to contain a TABLE with some form inputs. Several of them are checkboxes with the same name and unique IDs. For some reason, when I attempt to access members of that element array (e.g. document.formName.elementName[…]), they get into a "wierd" state. It somehow finds elements with no parentNode (elements that should be GONE since I changed the innerHTML). It only seems to happen if I neglect to include an input with the same name when the innerHTML is set (e.g. no items to display). I spent a good amount of time trying to figure it out and it appears to be a browser bug. If it’s still in Firefox 3, I may or may not report it.

  76. Mitch 74 says:

    @Glen: aren’t you going a bit fast? It may be a typo, but as far as I know navigating forms recommends:

    document.forms.formName.getElementById(‘id’); if you try to access unique elements through non unique parameters, no wonder a browser may get confused…

    The most DOM-stable method is getElementById, as going through the document.forms and such shortcuts isn’t reliable. So yes, you may have hit a bug, but if for any reason you’re creating a reference to a shortcut, remove the shortcut’s origin, then you make a reference to a nonexistent node – so, I’d say your bug is real (Firefox 2 doesn’t do DOM ‘garbage collection’ fast enough), but comes from using a deprecated, not recommended access method.

    If you need to hit a node several times, give it a shortcut in its main context by using a well-targeted var myElem = document.getElementById(‘elemid’) and then only work on it through this direct reference – it’s much more stable with the bonus of being both cross-platform and faster (cross-platform as long as you don’t use fancy case on your IDs due to IE’s fsck’d up implementation…)

    Mitch

  77. GregM says:

    "Can someone at [MSFT] indicate which program I need to use to open this? (Office 2002 chokes on it)."

    Steve, you need to download the Office Compatibility Pack to be able to open the .*x versions of the office file formats.

  78. Glen says:

    "document.forms.formName.getElementById(‘id’); if you try to access unique elements through non unique parameters, no wonder a browser may get confused…"

    Names aren’t unique (IDs are, which is why the FOR attribute in a LABEL uses IDs and not NAMEs) and there is a proper way to handle elements that share the same name (this is common for inputs like checkboxes, since the values are sent back in comma-delimited form if more than one is checked and they share the same name). Furthermore, it seems faster for performance reasons to access a pre-existing reference (e.g. document.forms.frmName.elementName or document.frmName.elementName) than to make a look-up with document.getElementById(). If you can tell I’m not entirely crazy about the slow DOM API, given that I’m using innerHTML in the first place and not a bunch of calls to say… createElement() and appendChild() or insertBefore().

  79. IEBlog says:

    Bill Gates’ recent Tech Ed keynote and Tony Chor’s follow-up blog announced that IE8 Beta 2 will be available

  80. Teamzille.de says:

    Bereits letzte Woche haben die IE-Entwickler in ihrem Blog angek�ndigt, dass die zweite Beta des Browsers im August diesen Jahres verf�gbar sein wird. Um ein breiteres Spektrum an Feedback zu erhalten, wird die Beta 2 innerhalb eines Monats nach dem &#82

  81. abgalea says:

    bueno lo voi  a bajar y lo probare

  82. JC says:

    I’ll ask this again… why don’t you stop making crappy browsers that frustrate designers and developers and just rebrand Firefox?

    I appreciate your efforts, but you have caused MANY people to waste time making hacks for your mistakes.

    Are Apple and Google the only ones that get it?

  83. Microsoft hat sich vor der Veröffentlichung einer Beta-Version des kommenden Internet Explorer 8 (IE8) nun doch (einigermaßen überraschend) dazu entschlossen, die ggü. IE6 und IE7 standardkompatiblere Darstellung von Webinhalten standardmäßig zu verwende

  84. ttyiav says:

    For those who are looking for ways of running multiple MSIE versions on the same computer.

    http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage

  85. Diego Perini says:

    Last chance to add a new event model !!!

    All we need are applications working as they do in the worst smart phones with a decent OS.

    CSS2.1, Data URI, AJAX and fixes are really welcome but how can you still tell people you have problems implementing decent W3C DOM2 event handling ?

    You better realize all the above is driven by events and event handlers.

    Thank you for delaying this to death, long life to NWEvents and IEContentLoaded. I can perfectly understand web applications scares you he, he…

  86. Buschi says:

    Great news! I hope you will support the w3c range.

  87. Mitch 74 says:

    @Glen: oh, I agree: adding DOM nodes is definitely faster through innerHTML than "standard" DOM methods (that’s why support for innerHTML got so big in other browsers); however, navigating the DOM is another matter, and you’ve hit a gray area that usually bites you more in IE than other browsers, but can sometimes get you in Opera or in Firefox too: modifying then accessing a node through different ways in the DOM.

    In short, when you delete a node in the DOM, the browser needs to update:

    – its properties

    – its parent’s property (the children collection needs reindexing)

    – its own children, and theirs

    And here is a gray area: like you create a node in the DOM before grafting it onto another node, you may cut it off and graft it somewhere else. As such, a browser can’t blindly delete all of the node’s children, and even then such an operation is lengthy – as all references done to its children need to be updated. If the DOM engine is reluctant to delete elements that may still be referenced somewhere, you get a leak. IE has this problem with closures, Gecko 1.8 has it with innerHTML.

    Now, this may actually be gone in Firefox 3 due to its more aggressive memory manager – give it a try, and tell us: RC2 should be final (except on Mac OS X). If it still exists, report it to Mozilla’s bugzilla – this ain’t the place. But in the meantime, I’d recommend you use DOM methods to delete content before you use innerHTML to add new stuff in its place.

  88. Mark Sowul says:

    I sure hope you guys ironed out the egregious handle leaks in IE8 – IE7 leaks handles like crazy over time until it dies an ugly death.

  89. CSS Gallery says:

    Would love to get my hands on the IE8 Beta this august.

  90. Jim says:

    Hopefully there will be UI changes, IE7 and 8 Ui are horrid, the tool bars need to be able to unlock, we had more choice in 4,5 and 6 when it comes to tool bar customizations then in 7 or 8.  Why the backward trend on this aspect I will never under stand, any way can’t wait to get my hands on it

    PEACE!

    JIM  

  91. Farrukh says:

    Our web app heavily depends on VML (as svg is not supported as of now), Who/How can I contact to inform my concerns for canvas support in IE8???

  92. ReadWriteWeb says:

    We already knew that Mozilla had a record breaking day on June 17th when Firefox 3 was downloaded close to 8 million times, despite the download site not working for at least part of the morning. Now, Mozilla has announced that Firefox 3 has indeed made

  93. Hubka.net says:

    Microsoft potvrdil, že vydá IE8 ešte tento rok. V poradí druhá beta by mala vyjsť niekedy v priebehu

  94. As IE 8 offers improved security and support of World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) web standards, webmasters

  95. As IE 8 offers improved security and support of World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) web standards, webmasters

  96. With Internet Explorer 8 development well advanced and beta 2 due in August it is important to be aware,

  97. Igor Macori says:

    Si sta avvicinando a grandi passi il rilascio della Beta 2 della versione 8 di Internet Explorer . Come

  98. Windows XP and Windows Vista Operating Systems The Windows Vista blog is reporting that Microsoft is

  99. It was announced some time ago and right on time the IE team released the second beta of Internet Explorer

  100. beqiraj.net says:

    Internet Explorer 8 Beta 2 Coming in August

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