The First Year of IE7


It’s been a little over a year since we released IE7 on Windows XP and for Windows Vista, so I thought it would be worthwhile to talk about where we are after the year.

According to internal Microsoft research based on data from Visual Sciences Corporation, there are over 300 million users are experiencing the web with IE7. This makes IE7 the second most popular browser after IE6. IE7 is already #1 in the US and UK, and we expect IE7 to surpass IE6 worldwide shortly.

Perhaps more important than the overall numbers is the positive impact IE7 has made for our users. As you know, we focused a lot on improving security in IE7. We believe IE 7 is the safest Microsoft browser released to date. According to a vulnerability report published today, IE7 has fewer vulnerabilities than previous versions of IE over the same time period. What’s more, the report showed that IE7 had both fewer fixed and unfixed vulnerabilities in the first year than the other browsers we compared.

In addition to having fewer vulnerabilities, as we previously mentioned, IE 7’s Phishing Filter stops more than 900,000 phishing attempts per week, stopping crimes-in-progress before users give up their personal information. On top of that, more sites are adopting Extended Validation Certificates as a way to help protect their users from fraud, and people are noticing. A recent USA Today article noted that “for the ultimate peace of mind, look for the address bar to turn green in IE7” in the context of securely connecting with your broker.

Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago, before the release of IE7. This is typically a sign that the product is more stable and has fewer issues than the previous release.

While we’re happy with how well IE7 is doing, as always, we continue to listen to our customers and find ways to further improve Internet Explorer. Look for more news on this front in the coming weeks.

Tony Chor
Group Program Manager

Comments (393)

  1. Joshua says:

    I hope these statistics don’t provide any sense of satisfaction.  IE has a lot of work ahead of it to keep up or even comply with existing standards.  Not to mention a lack of true dialogue with web developers.  There should be a sense of urgency to collaborate more extensively (and less adversarily) with other browser vendors.  It would be sad for IE to fade away in its own delusions of grandeur and support its own misguided standards of how the web should be.  Good luck and hope to hear about IE’s future developments so I can properly hack my sites to work with its arcane developments.

  2. LorenzoDV says:

    While IE7 is (was) a big step ahead, we really need to move on, especially towards full CSS 2.1 (and even 3.0) compliance. Please update us on IE8.

  3. Joseph E. Davis says:

    From the horrifically god-awful (IE6) to the merely depressingly buggy, nonstandard, and incomplete (IE7)… congratulations!

  4. Douglas Arnold says:

    As I have reverted to XP and Firefox rather than talk to INDIA and waste all my time trying to get the problems fixed that were "supposidly" ironed out before release, I am quite happy!

    With the shoddiness of these products it will be a cold day before I ever upgrade with a Microsoft product before it has been out for a couple of years.  This has also been a grand excuse for others: HP, Cannon and so on to further infuriate customers with lack of drivers, where they just blow you off and state, "just go buy a new piece of equipment, we don’t want to support our products"!

  5. Brandon says:

    Well, I could care less, about security…scrolling performance needs fixed!

  6. Fyrd says:

    I know you guys must love the kind of comments you get on this blog.

  7. William says:

    I don’t want to sound like a fan boy, but I think it’s appropriate to congratulate the IE team!

    If there is any update on the progress of IE8, that would be brilliant! If I remember correctly, I watched an interview with Bill Gates and he said there would be annual updates to IE). As much as I am a loyal user, I note that more and more websites are no longer using IE hacks, and the experience is degrading to the IE-user.. Security is important, but not everything!

  8. Sam says:

    Hmm, lets see.

    Big brag post about IE7…

    IE7 adoption good? well, yes, but consider how many people chose not too, that were "forced" into the upgrade? kind of staggering isn’t it!

    Employees in the Enterprise that are told what browser to use, account for many of these stats.  They are forced to IE7, whether or not they would prefer Firefox, Opera, or Safari4win.

    The stats on security are *HIGHLY* questionable in the comparisons… Firefox 1.5x hasn’t even been supported by Mozilla now for 5 months! and as always, the level of "severeness" is never taken into consideration in most of these tests.

    Good to see yet another post on the IE Blog attempt to sweep the real issue of bug tracking under the rug again… Less support calls? yeah, might be because all the support avenues have been closed! Hard to report an issue when there is no where to report it!

    I don’t even know where I would find a 1-800 #.   Oddly enough, I’ve never needed one with any other browser.

    1 year, still no bug tracking

    1 year, still no updates on IE8 features

    1 year, still no updates on IE8 bug fixes

    1 year, still no ETA on IE8 release

    1 year, still no ETA on IE8 Beta release(s)

    1 year, still no ETA on IE8 Alpha release(s)

    I’m not clear on the interest in a celebration?

  9. Milo says:

    Good job.  You all deserve a big pat on the back.  Now get back to work.

  10. Evel says:

    well the comments here just show, once again, how insecure the Firefox fanboys feel – and rightly so, if that vulnerability report is any indication…

    Congrats to the IE team. As far as I’m concerned my wishes when it comes to IE are not security related (been using Internet Explorer since version 2.0 under various MS OSes, never EVER been hit by any kind of malware) nor do I care much about any sort of self-proclaimed web standards (Some people should check the definition of the word "standard" – IE’s implementation is it, de facto. It’s all about numbers) but a few quirks mostly related to the UI (I want to move and customize my toolbars the way I see fit) and speed (it shouldn’t take that long to open a new blank tab)

  11. Hello Mr Chor,

    Internet Explorer 6 was vulnerable, unsafe for 284 days in 2006 according to Washington Post’s Brian Krebs. Even Microsoft officials concurred with his findings. Compare with Firefox: Firefox was vulnerable for 9 days in 2006. So, for how many days was IE 7 vulnerable in 2007 (first 11 months)?

    You mention support call volume decrease for IE and that Microsoft continue to listen to its customers.

    Mr Chor, how exactly, concretely do you want/expect people to report on the phone crash bugs and hang bugs occuring in MSIE 7 to Microsoft? … with call centers located in Philipines?

    I’ve tried to do just that, trying to reach Chris Wilson, and, from what I have seen and heard, it’s not realistically feasible.

    Visit my webpage and then examine bugs  #41 and #92. These rather serious, quite severe and incapacitating bugs were both reported before and, still today, they have not been fixed. They would have all been fixed by now if such bugs had been happening in Mozilla (Firefox), WebKit (Safari, Konqueror) or Opera.

    Like everyone else has been saying and are still saying, the IE development team still has to fix at the very least 700 bugs, incorrect implementations (all testcase-ed, all demontrable, reproducible) happening in HTML 4, CSS 2.1, DOM 2 interfaces and then implement more or less 500 properties, attributes, methods specified in official W3C Technical Recommendations, W3C web standards (HTML 4, CSS 2.1, DOM 2 interfaces, DOM 2 Core, DOM 3 Core).

    Every single day, web authors of all experience, from amateurs to experts/gurus, experience difficulties (from minor to major) with bugs of all kinds in IE 7. When is Microsoft going to finally fix all these proven and testcase-ed bugs?

    When is Microsoft going to implement valid markup code and valid CSS code in its microsoft.com webpages? In particular, in new or updated microsoft.com webpages? Microsoft just can not, on one hand, implement W3C web standards in IE 7 and then, on the other hand, refuse to adopt and refuse to implement these very same standards in Microsoft’s own website. Microsoft has to become consequent and coherent regarding all this, in particular – but not exclusively – with MSDN webpages on web authoring.

    Regards,

    Gérard Talbot

  12. Sam says:

    Direct quote from the end of the "A vulnerability report"

    "ABOUT THE AUTHOR Jeff Jones is a Security Strategy Director in Microsoft’s Trustworthy Computing group."

    Once again, thanks for the un-biased reports!

    As always, the best source of information, is the un-biased source.

    ATM Report on IE7:

    http://secunia.com/product/12366/

    Affected By: 19 Secunia advisories

    Unpatched: 37% (7 of 19 Secunia advisories)

    vs. Report on Firefox 2:

    http://secunia.com/product/12434/

    Affected By: 18 Secunia advisories

    Unpatched: 22% (4 of 18 Secunia advisories)

    And Firefox has no issues in the yellow (medium) level.

    By anyones math, that puts Firefox out in front in terms of security.

    And if you want to compare to other browsers, it isn’t worth it:

    Safari:

    http://secunia.com/product/5289/

    Affected By: 6 Secunia advisories

    Unpatched: 50% (3 of 6 Secunia advisories)

    Opera:

    http://secunia.com/product/10615/

    Affected By: 10 Secunia advisories

    Unpatched: 0% (0 of 10 Secunia advisories)

    Konqueror:

    http://secunia.com/product/3166/

    Affected By: 14 Secunia advisories

    Unpatched: 14% (2 of 14 Secunia advisories)

  13. "Internet Explorer has stopped working" says:

    Sorry, I can’t get past the all-too-frequent IE 7 crashing or hanging  at seemingly random times to appreciate anything you just posted.

  14. Adam says:

    So… what about IE8?

    I agree with the others calling for more information. The stats and pats on the back for IE7 are nice and all, but we need to know what to expect with IE8.

    The ASP.NET team is VERY good about providing tons of information, roadmaps, previews, etc.  about future releases. The community has direct access, and can offer input to the ASP.NET team.

    What is keeping the IE team from doing the same?

  15. Joe User says:

    What is keeping the IE team from it? Hmm… a desire to openly communicate with people since everyone who was interested in such has left.

  16. Over 300 Million users are now surfing the web using Internet Explorer 7 and Microsoft anticipates that

  17. FF user says:

    IE7 needs an upgrade badly even though it’s just a year old.

    Every time I fire it up I remember how bad it is in comparison to current release of FF.

  18. Whine, whine, whine. All I have to do to remember that most web-devs are still in preschool is to visit this blog and read the negative comments.

    Good job, IE team! Keep it up.

  19. Jerry Pisk says:

    How do EV certificates protect users? Either CAs verify subject identity before issuing certificates, in which case EV certificates are not any more secure than regular certificates, or CAs do not verify subject identities in which case EV certificates are not secure either. Would anyone please explain how are EV certificates protecting users better than regular certificates?

  20. Eric says:

    What feels most missing from IE7 (hell most Microsoft products) is that the community feels like they’re being left out. You know some of us do understand how software works and we want you to have a better product. Provide something along the lines of bugzilla but make it wide open to anyone. If you want, have a way to make some posts internal so you can discuss code changes.

    Just let us have more of a say and you’ll be rewarded in the long run. That’s sorta like, gasp, open-source!

  21. Devon Young says:

    Now that we’ve hit this plateau, and trust me it’s a welcome one that’s well overdue, I’d be very interested in what’s planned for the future now. Where is IE going? What features are being considered as something to be built in? What types of code will the next version be able to handle? Or will IE stale off again for a while until there’s a percieved threat again? I’d really like to see e4x built into IE.

  22. rc says:

    @Sam, Adam

    "1 year, still no ETA on IE8 release"

    "So… what about IE8?"

    As I mentioned before, there will be no news about future versions of IE at least until the end of 2009.

  23. Al Billings says:

    Give it up, rc.

    Wait, let me do it for you:

    "There is no IE team anymore."

    Thanks, rc. You don’t need to say it now like you do in every post. :-)

  24. Bink.nu says:

    On the one-year anniversary of the launch Internet Explorer (IE) 7, the IE team posted yet another “stay

  25. Tom Stack says:

    Any news about IE 7.1, 7.5 or 8?

  26. Oran says:

    My last comment was up for a while and then deleted.  Let me put it in a less pithy manner and see if it gets through this time.

    Like many others I would love to hear an update on the status of IE8.  I fear that the IE team may really want to share this information because it is in their best interests to do so, but Steven Sinofsky’s "translucency not transparency" memo may be behind the lack of information.  I feel that calling attention to this change in philosophy may help to reverse the information lockdown before it hurts Microsoft too badly.  Imitating the cultures of Google and Apple isn’t always the answer, and it makes me sad to see that kind of short-sighted thinking gaining more traction at Microsoft.

  27. mel says:

    Give us an unbiased vulnerbility report and i come back reading.

    IE7 is a nice step forward, but a bigger step is needed, even it would take sidesteps to IE 7.1, 7.5 and then IE8. Make IE pass through Acid test and the i will cheer :)

  28. Marcus says:

    Why the hype on IE7?  Anyone with a choice uses a different browser!

    Give us a bug tracking system, and you will get developers to come back to IE.

    Get developers back to "Not hating" IE, and you might get "positive feedback" from the community, and your user base at large.

    Seems pretty simple to me.. too bad only Firefix, Safari and Opera seem to get it!

  29. Today I have been developing another new website using CSS layout. I only triggered one IE CSS bug and it was in IE6.

    Developing for IE6 and IE7 still feels a bit like playing "Operation". But over the past year, I’ve built up a feel for the common ground between them. But I still get caught out at times. :)

    What I dread is an IE8 release which changes any aspect of how it renders pages compared to IE7. Developing for two versions of IE, one version of Firefox and one version of Opera already stretches CSS development time to the edge of what is commercially viable, in my experience.

    Please do continue your active participation at W3C’s HTML and CSS working group. Please do continue working on your rendering engine, perhaps making this progress publicly available with tester versions. But don’t put this in the public release until it’s on the same page as the other mainstream web browsers (Firefox, Opera and Safari at the moment).

    On the UI front, I’m glad to see the menu bar was made visible by default in the end. However, there are lots of other oddities with the UI. I’m no usability expert, but I’m trying to do something constructive by taking screenshots and writing notes about things I notice:

    http://projectcerbera.com/ui/ie7/

    An update which made IE7/XP fit in with the conventions of Windows XP would be a big help for my parents and non-technical friends. For example, make the tabs look and work like the tabs they see in Printer preference sheets or Windows Media Player’s Options window.

    Whatever you decide to do, continuing to keep this blog open and letting people have their say is really cool. Especially given the negativity of some comments. It would be nice to get a "we see what you’re all saying and here’s what we think" in return!

  30. JW says:

    IE 7 refresh or IE 8 which one? just wondering

  31. Dawson Jones says:

    But IE updates so much less than Firefox, so is the response for security vulnerabilities really speedy?

  32. John Smith says:

    Fair enough, but..

    – Performance is .. not great

    – Why are add-ons allowed to crash the browser?

    honey@jklm.no

  33. Al Billings says:

    Dawson,

    This post by the VP of Engineering at Mozilla might help you come to your own answer:

    http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/schrep/archives/2007/11/use_the_metric_which_suits_you.html

    Al

  34. jason says:

    Can someone tell me what IE is?

  35. JD on EP says:

    Deployment speed: Large downloads and interface changes slow clientside adoption. IE Team: "It’s been a little over a year since we released IE7 on Windows XP and for Windows Vista, so I thought it would be worthwhile to talk about where we are after

  36. dk says:

    Tony,

    I sympathize with your situation, but you desperately need to get your seniors and peers to understand what’s happening, and to assign your team way more resources.  IE is a first-impression MSFT product for most web developers, and yet you all continue to underestimate the dramatic spillover effect this poor developer experience has had and will continue to have on your other products and services.

    Let me drive this point home. I am a front-end programmer and a co-founder of a start-up. I can tell you categorically that my team:

    – Won’t download and play with Silverlight

    – Won’t build a Live widget

    – Won’t consider any MSFT search or ad products in the future

    And the reason is because of IE – because MSFT disregards its most important relationship with us.  Until this relationship is repaired, nothing else stands a chance.

    Please fight the good fight and drive this point home in your org.  Good luck.

  37. Andre says:

    Never trust a statistic you didn’t faked yourself.

    Maybe 300 million Windows users have been forced to download IE7, but all independent stats show Firefox clearly in front of IE7.

    "Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago"

    So you are saying that Firefox is responsible for the increased unemployment on the Philipines?

  38. Jerry Mead says:

    @oran & dk

    Absolutely right. And the MSFT web development platform (with Trident at its heart) is hugely important to a great many ISVs, too. At this time they/we undoubtedly feel *really* concerned about the 100% ‘info blackout’ being applied to IE’s roadmap.

    Simple answer: move ownership to the developer division (these days, IE’s logical home) and set folks like Scott Guthrie to work repairing some of the damage caused by the "shut your mouth" policy which I’m sure is so horribly embarrassing to the people working on the team.

  39. mauro says:

    it is far slower than firefox, you should work on this !!

  40. Brian says:

    A very simple fix would sort out most problems – IE is (in effect) already two browsers, one for standards mode and one for quirks mode.

    I would be satisfied if IE was upgraded so that in "standards" mode it ran the gecko engine (or failing that, adhered to W3C) and in quirks mode it ran the MS engine. That architectural change would solve the bulk of W3C and legacy problems since many "legacy" sites run in quirks mode. For web developers it would be easy to flip between which engine is needed to support their website.

  41. n-blue says:

    I wonder when will you release IE without click to activate. I found a version for XP 64bit (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=37431bba-2d8e-48ab-8c9f-d5f5b2ea7be7&DisplayLang=en).

    But I am in doubted why Microsoft keep poorly discribe the thing:

    This update includes minor changes to how Internet Explorer handles some web pages that use Microsoft ActiveX controls. Certain webpages will require users to manually activate Active X controls by clicking on it or using the TAB key and ENTER key.

    What’s above description means? can anyone here understand what it talking about if they don’t know the think beforehand. Why can not make it simple and understand able.

    Btw, as we are using IE and continue to use Whaat the need of keeping your community and suporter in dark. Speakless on the think people want to know. It’s one year already after IE7 is released and you have one year left to finish IE8 — as your originally promise, Gates’s word.

  42. n-blue says:

    @Brian

    If you think Gecko is perfect for standard, I give you some pictures:

    http://n-blue.nblogz.net/firefox-extreamly-good/

    Take close look on pictures (the article are in Thai, I don’t think you can read it).

    And the last picture on this page:

    http://n-blue.nblogz.net/small-but-great-advantage-of-vista/

  43. ikramkurdi says:

    my ISP supports IE for making connections to the internet. So it is always open. But, that is the only use it has for me. I use Firfox for everything.

    And the statistics are hallucinations.

    Read this: http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/11/30/counting-still-easy-critical-thinking-still-surprisingly-hard/

  44. Chad Udell says:

    This has been a huge pain in the a** for me and my coworkers. With a nearly even 1/3 split between IE6, Ie7 and Firefox… all with drastically different rendering and javascript functionality, it’s been a tough last few websites to produce. Debug time is going through the roof and I have the taste of 2000-2001 browser wars in my mouth again.

    We’re adhering to standards and using conditional CSS/Javscript lke crazy… it’s painful!

    The way it look now, it’ll be 2010 before we even get browsers with CSS3 support. I’ve all but had it with HTML/CSS/Javascript.

  45. hassan says:

    thanks for IE7!

    I used IE7 and IE6 for both development and normal usage.

    But please note followings about ie problems:

    1. IE hangs more than firefox2 (firefox1 hangs more than all other browsers!), I thought you must solve this problem

    2. IE does have "Save" or "CTRL+S" that is very important!

    3. IE takes long time (in near all cases) for save web pages (firefox takes very short time) and during that, not only active can not be accessed, all other tabs is also inaccessible

    4. IE does not save objects like "swf" when saving pages

    5. I can not change IE7 default page! (it goes to "http://runonce.msn.com/runonce2.aspx" every time!)

    6. (development) IE tries to verify cache each time a page request is made (and get "No Change" answer in many times)

    7. (development) I did not found any good document for creating addins (i said just my experience about that)

    if you plan to do something right top, you may attract developers from using firefox.

    thanks

  46. Alan Gresley says:

    And what a year it has been. I believe that IE7 is catching IE6 in the ammount of CSS bugs it has.

    <a href="http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/guillotine/index.htm">IE7 Guillotine Bug</a>

    <a href="http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/floats/floatandcleartest1.htm">IE7 Guillotine Bug</a>

    There are plenty more. What is happening with IE8? Maybe it’s back to the drawing board since IE8 had the IE7 Guillotine Bug.

  47. Alan Gresley says:

    Why can’t this blog work like other blogs and have markup and preview. Here we go again.

    A variant of the original IE5 and IE6 bug which also effects IE7.

    http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/guillotine/index.htm

    A test involving the clear property on floats in which IE only supports 50 precent of the property.

    http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/floats/floatandcleartest1.htm

    A question.

    1. Does a float behave stangely in IE because it has hasLayout or because it’s a float?

  48. SteveL says:

    Congratulations, IE team. Here’s looking forward to an even better IE8.

  49. TerryA says:

    I realize you can never please everyone all of the time, but…  

    Concerning the overwhelming negativity on this site about IE7, two things come to mind: either the negative responses are from very depressed, whiny, negative people with nothing better to do than criticize, OR there’s more than a grain of truth here…  Are you listening Microsoft?  

    Me, I don’t have all day to coddle a finicky and quirky browser, so I avoid IE as much as possible.

  50. Paul says:

    Congratulations.

    In the same timeframe, Firefox went 2.0, and launched 3.0 Beta, Safari has gone to 3.0, including a version for Windows, Opera’s still on 9, but they’ve made good progress in their minor rev’s.

    Hell, Firefox has done two minor rev’s /this week/!

    Let’s see… six years for IE7, so you guys are on track to have IE8 by what, 2012?

    Your problem is you think in terms of years. Your problem is that your company sees the web as a competing platform. Do us all a favor and stop making IE altogether.

  51. until dk says:

    It wasn’t until I read dk’s post, that it really hit home as to the real reason why MS needs to jump in to action on fixing IE.

    Microsoft doesn’t make any money if:

    1.) They adhere to web standards

    2.) Open public bug tracking

    3.) Talk transparently with the dev community

    4.) Allow 2-way communication

    Thus they have no incentive to fix IE… until you analyze dk’s remarks:

    5.) By ticking off every developer that uses IE in any way shape or form, you are LOSING money on your other development tools, technologies across the Web spectrum, AND EVEN IN THE WINDOWS PROGRAMMING WORLD! as a result.

    Yes indeed! Tony, please go run this up the Microsoft flag pole! I don’t care what the reason is that is used to get MS to fix IE, as long as it happens! But finally we have a reason that MS will listen too… MONEY!

    Best of Luck Tony, and please take Chris Wilson along with you, he’s got the smarts to realize that this is a huge issue, and can translate what is needed in the fixes for the browser, to get IE back into shape.

    Kudos dk!

  52. FIRST THING, YOU GUYS ARE STILL GETTING YOUR PACE WRONG, AT THIS RATE, FIREFOX WILL EVENTUALLY EAT OUT IE IN 3-5 YEARS. A 6 MONTHLY RELEASE CYCLE IN PERFECT.

  53. Looks like MS doesn’t care about hurt pissed off fans of IE.

  54. Are you still instructed by MS higher authorities to keep mum and make IE releases in sync with Windows releases?

  55. I can’t seem to decide IE’s release pace is worse or Windows Ultimate Extras team’s pace is.

  56. Anon says:

    Why are you so, really so, backward? Your friends in the Developer Devision have released two versions of Visual Studio, have made free express versions available, care for the academia and the hobbyist developer, even announced F# for academia, have contributed thousands of lines of code to open source projects on Codeplex, have even donated their Power Toys to the Open Source Community, are showing off their roadmaps publically, have hundreds of active blogs on blogs.msdn.com, regularly ask for feedback and discuss with customers, have a fully functional, responsive and continuously open public bug-tracking system and have found the time to deliver some amaizing products such as Silverlight and LINQ all in the last 3 years. Whilst you! What can I say. You: Keep the Web stuck to the past, have not seriously updated your products in the last 10 at least 10 years, have nothing new and really impressive to show off, do not care for your developers, do not release or participate in any open source or at least toy-like projects to help the community on Codeplex or anywhere else, have the same developer tools as ever, do not allow an open bug-tracking system, continuously ask the same stupid questions on what we wish you to prioritize in fixing, do not participate enthusiastically in standard bodies or at least talk about it (Javascript 4 fiasco remember?), do not care about hobbyists and the academia and do not assist them with any free web tools, do not offer anything innovative, are sucked completely in the dark Windows Division and not only all that, what, you post about one year of IE7. Well, enjoy. If you want to behave like two companies, the good and the bad. Enjoy.

  57. thePiet says:

    I think it’s really bad to celebrate because of the 300 million users which are "using" IE7.

    Every noob which buys a computer gets Windows. Every Windows gets Internet Explorer. So every noob gets, even if he does not like it, Internet Explorer.

    This noob does not even know that there are other, better, faster, more user friendly, safer, nicer, shinyer, and so i can go on for a minute or two, browsers.

    So the noob uses IE. Well, in that case i’m far from surprised that IE7 is being used by 300 million people.

  58. Nektar says:

    Don’t forget that IE7 keyboard navigation is broken or at least a step backwards. You can’t use the tab key for example to navigate between all on-screen options and at times you need to use the cursors keys as well. Handling split-buttons is also problematic as you don’t know how to activate a split button from the keyborad or how to activate its associate pop-up menu. Vista has the same problems in many places where keyborad navigation is not predictable. For example, on the switch user screen, you can’t use tab to cycle through all the options but you need to use a combination of tab and cursor keys, an unpredictable thing to do, especially if you don’t know before-hand what options are available. Also, Office 2007 handles things a bit differently, where split-buttons’ pop-up menus are activated by using spacebar I think, etc. The bottom line is that you need to formulate a consistent and well-documented keyboard accessibility stradegy and have it in all of your programs to be the same and did I say document it? Finally, keyboard accessibility should be complete and not oonly nearly complete, allowing users with disabilities to do everything that a user using the mouse can do, including resizing grid columns, etc.

    Remember these things please when you are designing the next version of IE or the next version of Windows or a service pack to fix all these, or the next version of Office. Formulate a company-wide consistent keyborad stradegy please and make it complete and binding. And publish it. Completely.

  59. Chris Latko says:

    How long is it going to take you guys to adhere to at least the CSS2.1 standard? Why do I have to create separate CSS files for IE6 AND 7. Why do I have to resort to CSS hacks to get your browser to behave? Why are you wasting everyone’s time?

    When will we see a decent JS debugger? Or can you make the JS error messages a bit less vague? I spend more time DEBUGGING for IE, then I do CREATING for other standards compliant browsers.

    I wish IE would just go away.

  60. Milan says:

    The File Transfer Protocol is a great little protocol if you just want to, well, transfer a file.

    Sadly IE7 has screwed it up by introducing a staggeringly dangerous flaw, whereby the user (regardless of login) is plonked right at the server’s true root directory.  I can’t believe this is still not fixed.  Obviously the developers at MS don’t have the same high opinion as myself of FTP, and to hell with the millions of functional FTP servers around the world.

  61. rc says:

    @Al Billings

    "Wait, let me do it for you: ‘There is no IE team anymore.’"

    It’s you who says about "anymore", not I.

  62. "Formulate a company-wide consistent keyborad stradegy please and make it complete and binding. And publish it. Completely." — Nektar

    Microsoft already has extensive guidelines backed up by over a decade of products and usability testing. The keyboard guidelines are here, part of a whole section on accessibility:

    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspx

    And there’s a "User Interface Design and Usability" section here:

    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa152962.aspx

    Why deviate so radically from the UI which has been so successful in Windows XP? It’s not just Microsoft doing this, btw. Firefox 2 doesn’t use the OS theme by default, neither does Opera, neither does Adobe Reader. Even anti-virus software avoids the OS look!

    This is a trend I’d like to see reversed. At least for the Windows XP builds of applications.

  63. Chris Knight says:

    Regarding IE7 reliability – one wonders how many deployments of IE7Pro (www.ie7pro.com) have been performed to enable crash recovery.

    I get annoyed that IE7 on Windows XP has a limit of about 60 open tabs, and that limit reduces to about 30 when using IE7 on Vista.

    Not fun when you use tabbed browsing as a reading list.

    Thankfully IE7Pro makes IE7 what it should have been.

    Unfortunately FF is just as crap as IE when it comes to performance and reliability…

  64. CableGuy says:

    Wow! One more great Microsoft study.

  65. Noob says:

    Drop IE render engine, start using Gecko or Webkit

  66. Bradley says:

    Not buying a word of the "study/report" based on:

    a.) Not declaring that it was an internal study/report indicates you aren’t comfortable with 3rd parties doing the same study.  If you were certain of the results, you’d sign your name to them.

    b.) All sites/comments/blogs out there point to the exact opposite!  If I visit Secunia.com I always see IE with more issues, more unfixed issues, and more severe issues than any other browser.

    c.) Not an independent study.  If you can point to an independent study, not commissioned, funded etc. by Microsoft, that claims that IE7 is more secure than Firefox 2, backed up with facts and references, then by all means post it. (but unless QA slips big time at Mozilla, I can tell you now, such a scenario is very unlikely!)

    Final note:

    So, once again, another post on this blog, and not a single word about being open with the community, IE8, bug fixes, new features, transparency, public bug tracking etc.  *except* by every developer / manager / tester / designer / user / security expert commenting on this blog.

    Whats the issue here?  If MS is not going to commit any time, resources, material to any of this, ISSUE A POST indicating such (preferably with a reason)!

    If you are planing to be part of the process, and be respectful of the community, POST something indicating that you’ve at least heard the several thousand readers on this blog that are SCREAMING for information!

    Seriously, if 50-70% of the end users for my applications were not using IE(6/7), I would no longer develop for IE, thats how ticked off we all are!

    Once 51% are not using IE, I will be pushing darn hard, to not support it, until the situation with the IE Team, and the developer community is FIXED!

  67. Arlen says:

    Pleas MS make so more speed in IE8 more than firefox and safari .i think the best browser must hame this item:

    Secure

    more speed

    nice interface

  68. MioMio says:

    What about testing Linux and Firefox versus Michrosoft Windows and Microsoft Internet Explorer?

  69. Y. says:

    Why spending time on a new IE to support better css and html when MS wants us al to use Silverlight? Html & Css don’t cause a technology lock-in, they only provide an open way to publish data on the internet everyone can use on any platform/os.

    Why support that?

    Why not crippling the webdeveloper community with an old crappy browser until Silverlight is ready for the big masses. They just bought themselves more time with IE7 … I don’t expect much from IE8. If we were to expect something big (and I mean really big with good standards support) they would have setup a public bugtracking db, better forums and better community interaction, … look at what Mozilla did in the last five years with a limited group of developers and budget… if they can, why can’t MS?

    If MS can push Silverlight, most webdevelopers will end up using MS products to develop webapps (unless you want to be adventurous and use Moonlight on another OS) and most endusers will use IE to run the apps because the support will be better in IE (eventually)… Remember the downlevel browser flags in ASP.Net. Everything looked fine … in IE. Mozilla lacked table borders and other stuff because it was downlevel… duh

    I hope I am wrong. There are some really nice specs in the pipeline for Web Applications 1.0 and the extension of HTML as we know it today. Mozilla and Apple already implement parts of these specs (like offline data, dateinput control, …). Why not IE?

    Open the web, stop closing it ….

  70. frankwick says:

    Tony-

    You state that "we continue to listen to our customers and find ways to further improve Internet Explorer."  I use FF/IE7 50/50. I would convert to IE7 100%, but FF has some great features I cannot give up. Can you implement these into IE somewhere somehow???

    * The integrated search bar in FF (ctrl-F) is much nicer then the find in IE7.

    * The ability in FF to put an RSS feed in the bookmark toolbar is incredibly simple and useful.

    * The drop-down search (next to the address bar) is better implemented in FF.

    * QuickTabs is really useful, but I find that many people don’t know about. Maybe it should be better exposed to the user.

  71. frankwick says:

    Chris Knight-

    Why would you want more than 60 open tabs? That would be a huge, cluttered, unmanageable mess.

  72. hAl says:

    "Year of silence from IE team" would have made a better article for this bliog

  73. Alex says:

    I wrote a blog entry about this on my website, in which I state I love IE, but the lack of news is frustrating. If you want to read (or reply to) it: http://blog.alex-media.nl/hello-ie-team-we-want-updates

  74. Anphanax says:

    "Sadly IE7 has screwed it up by introducing a staggeringly dangerous flaw, whereby the user (regardless of login) is plonked right at the server’s true root directory"

    If people are seeing files they should not, that is a problem at the server end (with permissions). If you do not know how to properly manage an FTP, that’s not IEs problem (and your "security hole" already existed for other FTP clients).

    "Remember the downlevel browser flags in ASP.Net. Everything looked fine … in IE. Mozilla lacked table borders and other stuff because it was downlevel… duh"

    Unless your project is trivial / layout does not matter, why are you using the built-in web controls that do not allow you to fully control the HTML sent to the client?

  75. lynn says:

    Talk to us soon about IE 8. Though IE 7 works nice for my dev puposes.

    Please stay engaged with us like the .net team does.

  76. M.S. Babaei says:

    Microsoft is a leader in Operating System, Programing Language, Technolgy & etc.

    My programing platform is .net,

    but Microsoft has no new idea for web browsing & web browsers software….

    ie6 was not upgraded for 5 years

    beacuase has not any serious  antagonist in web browsing software…

    and now, after years upgraded to version 7!!!!!!!!!!!!

  77. Andrea says:

    ie ie ie…..

    i can see here so many fanboys…

    can you see what browser i’m using to read

    your blog? yes? can you read that easy word? Opera…

    you know?

    -the most compatible much more technologies support than ie or firefox.same for protocols

    -the fastest

    and the most secure or one of the most secure

  78. Tobias Steck says:

    Mozillas Chief Operating Officer John Lilly wrote in his blog that there are 125 Million Firefox users in the world. Two days after this anouncement Tony Chor, Group Program Manager wrote in his blog that there are 300 Million IE…

  79. Hans K. says:

    I downloaded IE7, installed it and gave it a shot.

    A BIG MISS in IE7 is that the little searchcell can be set to Google but cant be disabled. So you end up with Google toolbar installed AND a little searchcell with Google (or another search engine). I like Google toolbar and want to keep it. I HATE a browser that misuses precious space in your toolbar area. Because i cant disable this little searchcell so it wont show up (which you CAN do in FF!) i DEINSTALLED IE7 and wont use this browser untill this BIG MINOR has been addressed. Till then i use IE6 or FireFox.

  80. On Friday, 30th November, Internet Explorer 7 completed it&#8217;s first anniversary; the community of developers instantly started to stone the Microsoft&#8217;s browser, as you can see on IEBlog. I&#8217;ve decided to put my feelings here, out of the..

  81. Ben Dover says:

    Make IE 8 like Firefox… Like a straight carbon copy. You won’t be original but at least you’ll have something that actually works. Hurry with version 8 so that version 6 will slowly become obsolete.

  82. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Hans K.: You can turn off the search box if you’d like.  See #3 here: http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/tweaks.asp

  83. mike says:

    Its sure been crazy on the web lately. All kinds of spook activity going on at my backdoor. No one’s ever around to see my machine act up but me though. Guess that means it didn’t happen. People are dim sometimes and it makes me mad.

  84. mike says:

    Its sure been crazy on the web lately. All kinds of spook activity going on at my backdoor. No one’s ever around to see my machine act up but me though. Guess that means it didn’t happen. People are dim sometimes and it makes me mad.

  85. Dmitry says:

    I just want to say congratulations to your team. I really don’t care what people think, IE7 is a very stable and feature-rich browser. I have really enjoyed using it and have had no reason to switch to Firefox or other competitors.

    If i had any suggestion to make though it would be to add some sort of download manager into the product, at least something simple like Firefox does to their credit, otherwise keep up the great work!

  86. Michael says:

    I still like my IE6 and will use it as long as there are security updates available.

  87. Fredrik says:

    IE7 is a nice browser. BUT it crasches way too often. I always have FireFox as backup browser for when the constant crashing in IE7 get too tiering.

    FireFox is alot more stable than IE7 currently. I hope you can fix that in the next release.

  88. anonymous says:

    No technology conscious user will use IE if you don’t get 95%+ standards compliance in the next 2 releases, at some point of time, sites must be broken so that eventually it’ll be over…why not do it in the next version itself? If you keep on preserving compatibility so that sites are not broken, that’s worse for standards, isn’t it? Please take the hard but right decision, rather than the easy and incorrect decision.

  89. Mike says:

    Are you IE guys serious? There’s no way to know what’s going on behind your closed doors! I like my information accessible, so if you want to impress, show us the internal bug tracking. Then we’ll compare it to the internal bug tracking of Mozilla, which is completely open for anyone to see.

    Until then, pleas keep your rhetoric to yourself and show us some more of that sweet IE 8. (What do you mean, there’s nothing to see?)

  90. guy says:

    How about IE8???

    and better support for webstandards…???

  91. pete feeney says:

    forward progress yes, and thanks for it. We all look forward to a complete standards ie8.

  92. Miika says:

    I don’t get it… Why use IE, at least other versions than IE7. Few friends that developes web applications, have told me that they’re planning not to support IE any more. I have also done some developing and every time the problem is the same: IE. If MS uses many years and lots of money, why don’t they do it properly ? Just same old crap with shiny new looks. I use safari and camino on my mac laptop and firefox on windows box.

  93. ie7 is just a typical product of microsoft… monopolistic thinking…

  94. Viktor Kojouharov says:

    More pats on the backs of people, that actually don’t do anything. Your work has more or less proven that either the IE team is non-existent, but is made of fictitious people, just for the sake of keeping up a giant masquerade, or are basically incompetent developers. Do answer these questions, since questions like:"when is IE8 coming out", or "when will you support {FOO} specification correctly" will never get a proper answer:

    Why do you still have jobs?

    Why aren’t you fired yet, if you are actually developers?

  95. Not impressed says:

    first off, this comment is obviously spam:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/11/30/the-first-year-of-ie7.aspx#6650047

    Now, on to business.

    I fail to see how IE7 being released for a whole year is anything to be impressed about when IE8 is all but vaporware at the moment!

    You’ve been hounded by the developer community, the press, the media, and every x-IETeam employee to get your act together and publish some info on IE8, to get off your high horse, and re-open public bug tracking, and be a team player!

    It will take no less than 10 minutes out of your busy day to post something about IE8 on this blog, but in the last… 120,000+ workday minutes FOR EACH IE Team employee, you’ve come up with exactly *ZERO* posts.

    C – O – N – G – R – A – T – U – L – A – T – I – O – N – S – !

  96. J Rose says:

    Yeah, PLEASE fix CSS in IE8 (or IE 7.5).  You are making my job so much harder.  I’d be a much happier person if IE disappeared off the face of the earth.

  97. Ryan G says:

    Instead of wasting our time with crazy back patting uselessness, will Microsoft please just admit defeat and close up development of IE and hand over to people who care about the web and handle it properly?

    I have wasted sooo many hours developing sites to work in this browser, that work without further modification in every other browser.

  98. jashnu says:

    "This makes IE7 the second most popular browser after IE6". And IE6 is only six years old! I am expecting IE8 around 2012.

  99. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Fredrik: A significant majority of IE crashes are caused by buggy add-ons.  See http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/troubleshoot.asp for information about running without add-ons and determining which add-on is causing your crash.

  100. bmidget says:

    Everyone is in the process of implementing CSS 3 into their browsers and I can’t even develop a site that fully utilizes CSS 2 because of IE–and that includes version 7.

    Like Ryan G., I’ve wasted countless hours hacking my sites that work in every single other web browser to work on IE.

    I’m hoping that when you release IE 8 in 2012 it will at least be 75% CSS 2 compliant. I think that’s a bit of a stretch, however.

    Apple went with an open source renderer, why can’t MS do the same frikkin thing? MS web developers have to hack their sites to work with IE, too.

    Oh, and good work. You still have majority marketshare. Isn’t that what you care about at MS?

  101. Mike says:

    Is this the kind of blog where someone posts and then doesn’t read the comments?

    Because if you do read the comments I would have expected (from a serious and responsible blogger) two things:

    1. Admitting that nobody has any insight into the actual amount of IE flaws and that the security statement in this post was therefore a mistake (anyone can make mistakes, it takes a real man/woman to admit them).

    2. An actual statement about IE 8 (even if that statement is "no comment").

    If these reactions are not forthcoming, than I can only conclude that this blog is the purest form of propaganda and that nobody should rely on any information posted to this blog, as it could in fact be harmful to them.

    Looking forward to your reactions!

    -Another developer who has been spending at least 8 hours of the last week fighting IE 6 bugs.

  102. @Mike

    I’m sure you’ve encountered/suffered through most of these, but this site here offers some of the best bug tracking for issues in IE.

    http://webbugtrack.blogspot.com/search/label/IE

    there is also bugs for other browsers but most are for IE, and lots of them target IE6.

    Salut!

  103. IE7? — Too little, too late

    IE8? — Now irrelevant

    —-

    Face it, you’ve messed up irretrievable with the broken CSS support in IE6 *and still in* IE7.

    Not to mention: memory leaks, non-standard event handling, non-support of modern DOM technologies (i.e., CANVAS), etc.

    The fact is: I’ve _moved on_ from DHTML and Ajax development work. I *won’t* move back unless IE goes away (or becomes fully standards compliant). But don’t count that position as a coup for Silverlight–I can no longer rely on MS to support my Web work, so I’m not inclined to adopt Silverlight either. Flex does everything on the Web that I need. Beautifully! And with Apollo, it will probably take away any need for me to mess with .NET WinForms again either.

    MSFT, you’re really going to have to do a lot of soul-searching to figure out to dig yourself out of the hole that you’ve put yourself in.

    Sorry…

  104. rc says:

    @Not impressed

    "It will take no less than 10 minutes out of your busy day to post something about IE8 on this blog"

    They know about IE8 no more than you and I. So they have nothing to post.

  105. Al Billings says:

    rc, I still can’t figure out what you are trying to say? There are a couple of hundred people on the IE team. I was in their building about seven months ago for lunch, visiting old teammates. They aren’t cardboard cut outs and they are working on the browser… I saw direct evidence of it.

    So, chill with the trolling of "The IE team doesn’t exist and there is no IE8" on every post. It is monotonous.

  106. Al Billings says:

    And, rc, you can’t say I have a vested interest in making IE8 look good or lying for them. After all, I’m QA for Firefox these days.

  107. lee choalan says:

    being a developer i can tell u the very fact that IE7 is so popular is a nightmare, coz it just treats everything differently, javascript, flash, u name it. either microsnob should work with the developing community to make sure that the browsers they produce are indeed up to scratch or they should just stop making them……….wish i could be a little rube here and tell u exactly what i think of IE7…..

  108. Andrew says:

    "being a developer i can tell u the very fact that IE7 is so popular is a nightmare, coz it just treats everything differently, javascript, flash, u name it. either microsnob should work with the developing community to make sure that the browsers they produce are indeed up to scratch or they should just stop making them……….wish i could be a little rube here and tell u exactly what i think of IE7….."

    I absolutely love freedom of speech!

  109. Rob B says:

    I was excited with the introduction of IE7 Beta. It was great to see the tremendous progress made. Now having had to support it for a year, dealing with all of it’s bugs, I realize it’s just slightly better than IE6. It still doesn’t get positioning right, still have problems with margins, etc., etc.And while the rest of the world is moving rapidly to CSS3 you guys still have not perfected your implementation of CSS1.

    Then there’s the sad state of your crippled JScript with not standard event handling and legions of other issues that make developers’s lives miserable. I am very exited about JavaScript 2.0. Even the improvements in JavaScript 1.7 where great. And you guys? Still stuck at 1.5. Seems like your answer to backwards compatibility to to foister Silverlight on us. That way you can have a rich user experience without having to update your browser. Don’t you realize this will lead to more people switching to other browsers?

  110. dmx says:

    Fix the innerHTML bug on selects! Its been around since IE5! Having to write a wall of javascript to emulate document.getElementById(‘selectid’).innerHTML="<option >ra</etc "

    gets pretty damn tiring.

    Aarrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

  111. Cuber says:

    This is getting annoying!

    At microsoft they know which version of Windows is at my PC, they know if it is legal or not and they know which updates I have installed. They know which sites I browse and yet I still my standard startpage of IE6 is now and then taken over by Microsoft to tell me to update to IE7.

    HOW CAN I UPGRADE??? I USE WIN2K! YOU KNOW IT.

    Quit spamming me, I know IE7 is better but since I can’t install it, don’t tell me it is there.

  112. Samo says:

    IE makes web developers suffer. IE7 less so than IE6, but still more than is needed.

    Yay, one year of dissapointment is behind us. There’s to one more year, and maybe another, until Microsoft gets IE right. Or halfway right. Or, at least, not painful.

    I know it’s not the fault of the whole IE team, I know that there are a few really good engineers working on IE. But boy, some of the guys making decisions must be baboons, because I can not thing of any other explanation* for IE 7.  

    *I’m going with "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence." here…

  113. Seth says:

    Please stop making the lives of developers a damn misery and scrap this pathetic excuse for a web browser or at least MAKE SOME KIND OF AN ATTEMPT TO ACTUALLY FIX ALL THE STUPID CSS RENDERING AND OTHER BUGS THAT YOUVE KNOWN ABOUT FOR BLOODY YEARS!

    IE6 was crap, IE7 redefines pathetic and frankly I’d rather nail my head to a desk than touch Vista.

    Get it through your heads MS – Firefox has handed your asses to you on a plate in terms of a good solid browser, it has better support for standards, better functionality, better security that doesnt spend more time making you want to smash your PC with a sledge hammer. Scrap the IE project, the ONLY reason you’ve got that many users (if you do infact have as many as you claim) is because you force IE7 out as a high priority update so all PCs with auto updates on get it immediately.

    Do us all a favour and do the one thing that will make developers across the world rejoice – Delete it forever.

  114. Floran says:

    It’s time you people at MS open up your code, you’re losing to other companies that DO support open standards AND open source. BOTH are important. If you give the FULL(!!!) IE code to the developer community there’s a chance customers worldwide will adopt IE because its a good product and NOT because it gets forced down your throat through Windows Update!

    So, IMHO, there are 2 options:

    1: give this code to the community (even when that would mean showing some of your proprietary code) OR

    2: delete the IE program all together

    PS. Why doesnt someone at MS stand up to that idiot of a Steve Balmer who constantly fights against the open source community rather than reckognize it has the future and starts to change the out-of-date MS business model!

    PS2. I am a .NET developer, but I can sick and tired that MS is trying to force its own standards into everything…when will you guys learn you cant fight a whole community? Work TOGETHER instead of work AGAINST (its also much less tyring)

  115. Martijn says:

    Had some troubles with MS MCE, the album covers used to show up when i played a track, after some windows updates, the covers didnt show up anymore.

    Searched like crazy wtf could have coused that, tagging? folder structure ?

    No just plane IE7, uninstalling IE7 will fix the problem, bravo IE7 messing up another MS program, crazy….

  116. Aaron says:

    I am very happy with IE7; keep up the good work guys :)

  117. Jason says:

    I’m less interested to hear about the first year of IE7, than I will be to hear about the last year of IE.

  118. Bubba says:

    I’d be willing to bet the primary reason IE7 has such high numbers is the fact that it gets pushed out as an automatic update via windows update. Here we have an example of Microsoft using it’s desktop monopoly to extend dominance in other markets.  Most people know to just go ahead and install updates due to security reasons, almost blindly.  I suspect most users don’t know how to update their registry to block this program.

    IE7 is a mediocre, ugly product. I don’t use it and doubt I ever will.  Firefox on the other hand (or Opera) are *much* better.

  119. Remco says:

    I am a happy freelance front-end programmer, and I would like to thank Microsoft for a substantial amount of the income I earn. I am paid to develop standards compliant, crossbrowser pixel perfect sites and templates for large companies and government. The amount of time spent on letting all versions of IE behave properly is staggering (even though sadly, my clients are dropping IE5.5 from the specs nowadays). I estimate that frequently up to half of my billable hours are spent on IE testing and debugging. The introduction of IE7 has only made it better: yet another browser to test and debug! My extended knowledge of all IE differences, bugs and hacks makes my work high in demand,

    Thank you Microsoft!

  120. Marc says:

    Reading al these comments made me think about how this became possible. Either Microsoft is trying to come up with something totally different in respect towards browsers (maybe something that won’t use html) or the IE team currently consists of perhaps only 6 developers and they are desperately trying to get more people on board but nobody wants to.

  121. João Marcus says:

    IE7 doesn’t understand CSS’s "display:table". Cool, all those years and the final release doesn’t even implement "display:table". Thanks, IE, for making us have to rely on fugly CSS hacks because IE developers seem to be either clueless or careless. You know, 90% market share, why should they care about quality? Marketing is the way to go! Thanks!

  122. MS Sucks says:

    I’m surprised that they keep these comments open.  MS sucks at life, FireFox rocks, get Ubuntu!

  123. Malixu says:

    Evel,

    Show me the specs IE implements then. Show me tests I can run to make sure my sites conform to them. Show me something I can use to tell if my site is likely to work with future versions of IE, not just current.

    At the moment, writing pages for IE involves taking wild stabs in the dark until you hit something that works. That’s insanity IMHO.

  124. Ahmed says:

    I’m quite happy with IE7 myself, it has everything firefox has (yes, that includes adblock and whatever random plugin you can think of except for the most obscure) and looks a lot more streamlined, loads faster and runs better in generel. I’ve had problems with it in which case I’ve fallen back to Firefox, so it isn’t perfect, but firefox also has its issues. I just prefer IE7 and firefox is my back up.

    No need to take the martyrs approach, they’re just web browsers for crying out loud, use whichever you prefer not because of some militant like hate of Microsoft but for conveniences sake.

    If the next firefox really provides a lot of advantages over IE7 then I’ll be sure to switch, as it stands they’re both literally neck and neck, both have their pros and cons.

    So congrats to the IE7 team, but like always in the world of software you gotta keep up or get left behind. Lots of work to be done to improve IE even more.

  125. ruben says:

    I totally agree with the comments from above. IE7 is not something to be proud of. Tony, you wrote the wrong words on the wrong moment. If you wrote something about office 2007, that it is a big improvement etc. I would totally agree with that, cause office 2007 just rocks. But saying something like that about IE7 is a big surprise for me and a big mistake from you.

  126. Phill says:

    When quizzed about the new features of IE7, are you proud of the fact your the only browser which sandboxes itself?

    That’s laughable!

    You wrote the code – why does it need a sandbox? Because IE7 is too insecure that even it’s developers don’t trust it.

    You development team and your product is a joke. Just thought i’d say that. Congratulations on pushing IE7 out of Windows Update – that really got some good adoption stats.

    Phill

  127. Brian says:

    I guess I’m a Microsoft fanboy. I’ve worked there. I run primarily Microsoft shops for web development. But most of the people "whining" in the comments are correct – IE7 was a big step from IE6, but it needs to go further from a standards adoption pov. It also would help if the web development community was at least clued in to the direction IE was going.

  128. Anurag says:

    The irony is that, I am reading this post on Firefox. By the way, if MS people IE7 DOES NOT work in Vista. I don’t care cause I rarely use it (and then it crashes).

    Anurag

  129. Tim Ottinger says:

    Remember that this is not a battle of IE fans v. Firefox fans.  Most windows users I know have both.  They update both whenever a new release is out, and they try them out.  Sometimes they prefer firefox, sometimes not.  They use IE if they are going to a site that requires it, and Firefox otherwise.

    I would not be surprised to learn that a very high percentage (something in the 90s) of IE7 users are also firefox or opera users.  

    If I used IE at all, I would use the upgrades out of pure optimism and pioneering spirit.  I would hope that newer stuff is more secure, and I would want to see what was in the new release.  

    Likewise, if I have trouble with one browser it’s no big deal.  Even on Linux I use a few of them regularly.  I would be unsurprised if there were fewer service calls simply because it’s easier to switch than fight.

    So I don’t think that the user numbers are inflated, and I don’t think they’re all that encouraging either.   This is a new era, and we don’t choose between MS and Mozilla and Opera so much as we continually sample all three.

    Tim

  130. Glomek says:

    "It sucks less than it used to" really isn’t all that much to brag about.

    If you want to brag, please focus on better standards compliance.  Then I’ll offer you a pat on the back for making the web more useful and taking tons of pain away from web developers.

  131. remon says:

    IE is a nightmare to all web developpers, it is a pain in the as of internet

  132. Joost [Amsterdam] says:

    Why is this story even mentioned? Most everyone I know thinks it’s a crap browser. At least ALL the developers think so. What a sorry excuse for a browser it is. Mind you, IE6 was so bad that any improvement on it’s trackrecord seems like a major feat but lets be real. They don’t try to be compliant. They don’t iterate their upgrade versions enough and updates can only be done via windows update so people that don’t update keep their old useless IE6 browser. Sigh. Look at Firefox and learn Microsoft. Give people updates regularly and then actually fix stuff that people want! And please please please stick to common standards!

  133. jpd says:

    As a web developer, I am certainly happy that IE7 exists, because for all the numerous failings which others have mentioned, it is at least a baby step in the right direction.

    What is absolutely unforgiveable is the fact that IE7 was not released for Windows 2000. That fact alone means that most of us must continue to suffer with IE6 for a long time yet. That’s YEARS MORE of the increased development times and painful workarounds that we all know and hate. There are people at MS who understand this, and who probably fought for it not to play out like this, but in the end they lost to the "platform uber alles" pinheads. Since Tony is here focusing on the usual largely meaningless numbers – vuln counts, ‘Phishing Filter’ interceptions, etc, instead of the standards compliance where IE has some ways to go, I’d tend to assume he’s more in the latter camp than the former.

    Working on a greenfield web app project right now, blazing along. Guess what? At least 20% of our existing customer base is on Win2K (these are people who got dragged from Win9x kicking and screaming), and we don’t think we can be prescribing Firefox in a hard-line "use it or go home" sense. IE6 of course botches all kinds of standards-based (X)HTML and CSS, where most every other browser out there (including IE7 – thank you) treats it in a relatively uniform way. So, add a tremendous amount of thankless, head-splitting analysis and hacks to what is otherwise a fast-moving and fun project – because we still need to support this pig. Thanks Microsoft!

  134. Me says:

    There is nothing wrong with IE7 and firefix isn’t better than microsoft’s browser. If that was the case then firefox was themarketleader now.

    I don’t get why people are so negative about microsoft. I think they have to think just before they say something based on nothing.

    I am not a fanbobut only want to explain why the negative critics against microsoft and it’s browser are wrong and not fair.

    Most sites work on their browser. Programmers should face that the site on which IE7 not work is not the fault of microsoft nor their programmers skills.

    Also it is just a fable that ie7 is more instable against viruses and malware andso.

    Maybe it is not perfect but that dont give you the right to hate microsoft so much. Firefox isn’t perfect also.

    And 4 the programmers who left a comment here I just want 2 say this: Think before you say sh*t like I am not gonna develop something 4 microsoft untill they realise the so called problem here cause it’s just bull and you all know it if you really work with IE7!

  135. Anonymous says:

    The sucking is strong with this one.

    Seriously, make a better web browser – pretty  much everyone but (1) you and (2) fanboys think you suck.

    Cheers

  136. When I first installed IE7, I was really excited.  Tabbed browsing!  RSS feeds!  Built-in search box in the upper right corner!  PNG alpha transparency!  I could hardly believe it.  Microsoft invented a time machine and whisked me right back to 2002 when I first used Firefox.  They gave me that "first Firefox feeling". But it stayed true to Microsoft browser design principles with its closed code and continued lack of compliance to accepted standards.  It’s like I don’t even need to buy Vista now!  I can just stay safe online with the all-new Internet Explorer 7. Great work, Microsoft.

  137. zeique says:

    "Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago, before the release of IE7. This is typically a sign that the product is more stable and has fewer issues than the previous release."

    Have you considered the alternate possiblity, which is that there are 10-20% fewer support calls because 10-20% less people are using IE?

  138. Edwin says:

    I think we are NOT interested in the past year but we are more interested in the upcoming year (IE8?)!

  139. tomothy says:

    The bottom line: MS is the Bush Administration of the software world, and you sir are their Dana Perino. MS bullied its way to the top and many of us wait for the day it falls. AOL had millions of users once too. The few people on this blog that are congratulating you are your colleagues, they are telling you nice things because they want something from you or feel sorry for you. The vast majority of the public could give a crap about a browser, and those of us that actually do, have chosen something other than IE. MS neither invented nor innovated the browser, it did however try to actively destroy those that did.

  140. IE7 yes, yes, what a great browser…for ME TO POOP ON!!!

  141. Jordan Lund says:

    Vulnarability issues aside, I.E. 7 is simply incompatible with many websites and web based software, including the J.D. Edwards software used at my company.

    I.E. 7 will not be installed precisely for this reason.

  142. asdf says:

    Everyone here just got trolled by Tony.

  143. Alec says:

    To be quite honest, Tony, I am amazed you were brave enough to make that post. You should be hiding the fact that a year has gone by since your new browser, and it still has no standards support.

    Most of the people who have adopted IE7 did so because they were forced by your updates.

  144. MS=Poop says:

    "The bottom line: MS is the Bush Administration of the software world, and you sir are their Dana Perino. MS bullied its way to the top and many of us wait for the day it falls. AOL had millions of users once too. The few people on this blog that are congratulating you are your colleagues, they are telling you nice things because they want something from you or feel sorry for you. The vast majority of the public could give a crap about a browser, and those of us that actually do, have chosen something other than IE. MS neither invented nor innovated the browser, it did however try to actively destroy those that did."

    This just about sums it up.  Awesome post, worth quoting.

  145. Blade Conway says:

    Unbelievable.  You MS people are the "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" of software.  What kind of cloistered dream world do you live in?

    Seriously, are you ever going to fix your browser(s)?  The only reason they are "popular" is because of the monopoly you’ve enjoyed so far. Developing a web page so that it renders correctly in Firefox or Opera is easy…with IE it is a complete nightmare.

  146. MyrddinE says:

    I’m an ISP tech, for a small Wisconsin ISP. When IE7 came out, I had to walk at least a couple dozen people through uninstalling forced installs of IE7 so that their Internet would work again. Out of about 6000 customers, that’s may not seem like a high percentage… that only counts the ones that called, and that *I* talked to.

    IE7 is a significant improvement over IE6. But you really shouldn’t be that complacent. Many of my customers, even the older ones, have switched to Firefox and appear to be pretty happy with it. Firefox isn’t perfect, nothing is, but it’s better than IE7 in many ways.

  147. chrisbz says:

    @Evel  You are truly an ignoramus if you don’t think web standards are important.  Web standards decrease development time and enhance the user experience.  IE is holding back implementation of css 3.0, and therefore holding back new potential user experiences on the web.

    Maybe you should look up the word "standards".

  148. lordsandwich says:

    On behalf of the millions of Firefox, Opera, and Safari users who aren’t even sure where the IE icon is on their desktop anymore, I extend my heartfelt congratulations.

  149. Ray says:

    Congratulation for making a modern browser that still fails in Second Acid Test. Enough bragging, give us IE8 now!

  150. Jonathan Moy says:

    are you serious? Firefox is WAY better. IE 7 is a joke! I never use it.

  151. jonathan says:

    I am a fierce fan of Microsoft, they have an incredible business model and they are the ultimate integrator drawing in what is best of al technologies out there! they have the money and technological/ intellectual power to better every product!

    My question is, what on Earth went wrong with IE7 it is a total disaster, i hate it, we deliberately got ssl-ev because it seemed like a great feature, what a waste of money, the browser is a nightmare to get anything to display properly in, code is so cumbersome and heavy!

    It crashes all the time, loads slow, is awkward to use!!! I hate to say this but i have left IE and moved to Mozilla and even the dreaded PC Antichrist Safari – i just can’t live with a product so terrible on my computer!!!

    It has to be given a sweet mercy killing!!!

    Put it out of its misery!!!

    it can’t be saved its a disaster, go buy a company like you normally do (for its intellectual capital)and get someone who knows what they are doing!

  152. Jim Priest says:

    Yes!  IE7 made the 8 hours I spent tracking down a simple javascript error so rewarding.  No debugger, poor developer tools.  I wish it would just go away. My life would be much easier. Think of all the extra time I would have!!

  153. Malixu says:

    "There is nothing wrong with IE7 and firefix isn’t better than microsoft’s browser. If that was the case then firefox was themarketleader now."

    Your space bar broke.

    Firefox’s not market leader because most people can’t be bothered installing a different browser, and because too many ‘web designers’ consider testing in IE to be enough to call something done (and then look surprised when the next version of IE breaks their pages).

    "I don’t get why people are so negative about microsoft. I think they have to think just before they say something based on nothing.

    I am not a fanbobut only want to explain why the negative critics against microsoft and it’s browser are wrong and not fair.

    Most sites work on their browser. Programmers should face that the site on which IE7 not work is not the fault of microsoft nor their programmers skills."

    Most sites work on IE because we have to make them work on IE, and a lot of developers don’t bother actually testing in anything else. It’s not because IE’s good, it’s because we have to code to the lowest common denominator, which is IE.

    We’re so negative about IE because we’re fed up having to work around IE bugs. We’re fed up with code that says:

    If (Internet Explorer) {

     Do something stupid

    } else {

     Do things the right way

    }

    I’m so negative because I was up until 2am on Sunday trying to debug JavaScript on IE, that worked everywhere else, before finally discovering the problem was IE was renaming the tags after page load (okay, it changed case), and then had to be up at 7 to demonstrate the code.

    I’m negative because that was the 3rd IE bug I had to work around in that code. I’m negative because IE’s incorrect use of the Content-Type header on requests means that most servers can’t handle a character set being sent in the content type.

    I’m negative because when files are uploaded from IE, the filenames are mangled according to the spec, and we have to have a completely different filename handler for IE, and everything that’s not IE.

    That’s just off the top of my head.

    "And 4 the programmers who left a comment here I just want 2 say this: Think before you say sh*t like I am not gonna develop something 4 microsoft untill they realise the so called problem here cause it’s just bull and you all know it if you really work with IE7!"

    Our development team works on a combination of Safari and Firefox. Almost universally, code we write for either browser works as is for the other, and Opera as well. Only IE has to have workarounds implemented for it.

    Oh, did I mention lack of correct handling of the button tag?

  154. Jad says:

    Oh yes, thank you so much for IE, it makes coding websites absolute hell. I can’t wait until Firefox finishes making IE irrelevant.  That will be a beautiful day.  Or the day you adhere to CSS.

  155. Ian says:

    Can’t you just relegate IE so its available for corporate intranets and buy Opera to actually publish a useful browser?

  156. IEFan says:

    Congrats on IE7. I like it (I hate the UI though) but please talk about what’s in store for future versions of IE! Talk about how you’ll redesign the user interface of the browser to look more like a typical browser, with all the command buttons grouped together. New features that are already in other browsers (spell checker, inline search).

    Security is great and all but just don’t make it all about that. I think practice save browsing and have anti-virus/spyware to protect them (I know I do).

    As a loyal IE user, I am happy with IE7 but I think it’s time for you to cough up the goods on the next version of IE!

  157. Lex says:

    From purely a web developers perspective, layouts that work fine in Firefox, Opera and Safari always need fixing in IE7, to say nothing of IE6. So at the one year anniversary of your browser, it still can’t render things properly, when all the other browsers can. How long before it catches up to the other browsers?

  158. Yaa101 says:

    @Tony Chor

    It must be very frustrating to see so much negativity coming your way. It must be said that the IE team has deserved this all coming towards them.

    What did you think, while delivering a half and buggy product, to expect that the users are going to be thankful, even grateful?

    I suggest you go talk to the Mozilla organisation to embed their Gecko engine into a XUL application that looks and feels like IE. This way you can make up for the years of embarrassment that is called IE.

  159. Reita says:

    You released IE7 just so you could say your browser is "only" one year old, even though the standards it supports predate back more than 5 years.

  160. Andrew M. says:

    Every time I write something, from a large scale widget to a small piece of CSS, I think to myself, "How will IE mess this up?"

    I am never surprised to see IE fail.

    I am never surprised to waste extra time debugging IE with outdated and poorly designed developer tools.

    God help my soul IE will give me a heart attack some day and remove me from this blessed earth.

    Congratulations IE team at continuing to improve while still maintaining your awesome audacity at sucking.

    Just fix it. Honestly, its about time. Hell, I’ll even do it for your. Release the code.

  161. andy says:

    i wonder if the ie team has ever had to develop a crossbrowser modern web site.

    i would have been funny to watch the puzzled faces: "did we.. did we.. are we.. oh god, why did we write IE like that??!?!??!"

  162. luke says:

    do you know why IE is the most hated piece of software  ever written? because its rendering engine just sucks. html, xhtml, css, dom and ecmascript implementation is just a joke if you compare it to other modern browsers.

    it’s an absolute tragedy so many people use this browser.

    just tell me WHY aren’t you fixing this crappy engine? you have everything you need. so just fix it, or give up IE!

    and WHY do you always have to disapprove? just do what the w3c and whatwg says, or is that too much to expect?

    you’re causing so much pain with your browser. if IE would die, no one would miss him.

  163. FYI says:

    I had 4 tabs open when I"m online then IE 7 suddenly freezes for a second and then when it came back i have 4 Different IE Windows instead of 4 tabs in on IE Windows. Can someone check if there’s a problem with the tabs?

  164. Know-It-All says:

    There are two simple reasons why IE8 won’t be released until the next version of Windows.

    1. Just as IE7 was XP+Vista only, IE8 will be Vista+"next version" only. This will be an incentive to move from XP to the new Windows version. Or at least, that’s what they hope…

    2. They have no real incentives to do anything with the web. They know most people will continue to use Windows anyway. Another bonus is all of the Visual Basic "programmers" who thinks Silverlight is the greatest, because they have pixel perfect positioning and doesn’t have to learn all the cross browser tricks.

  165. at jackson says:

    @jackson: This has nothing to do with calling national alliances to one country or another.

    Mozilla and Microsoft are both GLOBAL companies.

    By choosing Mozilla over Microsoft, users and developers have made an educated decision to choose a better product.  Microsoft is welcome to develop a better browser, they have chosen not to.

    Think about that for a minute, and decide which browser you would want to use?  One made by a company that cares about the users, the user experience, security, fixing bug, following specs, advancing the web?… or one that has shareholders that don’t see the financial motivation in improving the browser?

    Kind of a no brainer, isn’t it.

  166. The Beast that calls my name says:

    Given the amount of time I’ve been developing for the web I can say, yes IE7 did take some steps forward. These steps however were baby steps when huge bounding leaps were needed. It’s also worth noting that install != user, I’ve installed IE7 on plenty of machines, however the end user of those machines have all decided on using FF instead.

    Also probably not worth mentioning since it seems no one cares what devs post here, but one can still hope. A fully open IE8 development would be great, and I mean really open. If you’re not posting cause you’re afraid of the issues with Vista (posting info about features that never made it) then this full disclosure will fix that. If there’s a problem with a feature or bug fix, post about it, take advice that people send back about it, who knows maybe one of us can see an answer you miss. At the least we can make test cases if we know what you need test cases for. My faith in IE is so low that I’m looking at dropping support for it on my sites that register under 10% use for it and just giving them a screen advising them to upgrade to a real browser. If I can see that IE8 is really going to be better I’ll hold off on that, but if not just think of how it could spread. Picture what happens if all the real web devs start dropping IE support when it reaches less than 10% use on their sites, once one site drops support the IE user numbers will go down, and as those numbers go down more sites will drop support, until there’s only a few sham and corporate sites programed by people who either don’t know better or have rules preventing them from doing better left supporting IE at all.

    The long and the short of it is MS has pissed off too many people with incomplete versions of IE for us to accept this much longer, and most of us have no tolerance for your programming behind closed doors anymore.

    -Name thanks to lyrics from Darkseed – Dark One. A very good song all metal lovers should go out and listen to.

  167. Alistair says:

    I teach web development at a college level and the frustration expressed by my students is almost impossible to relate here.  IE6 was such a flawed browser that once you start to develop web pages, the students realize how ridiculously backward it really was.

    With IE7, the promise was that it would support more standards, *particularly* CSS standardization.  But sadly, there are still bugs that require workarounds and special consideration.

    When is Microsoft going to get it?  At what point will you actually work with the community and develop a platform that supports the same standards as nearly every other browser on the market?

  168. Je says:

    As long as you don’t ever print anything its ok at best.

    Go to Yahoo.com and print out a weather map!!!!!!!!!!!

  169. IE is slow, IE is buggy, IE is bad. Sorry, you need to dump IE and all that it stands for in order to create a better browser. Resign and bloom from your programming experience so far. IE is dead! Also take a deep breath, Windows is next…

  170. toohottohandle says:

    i think u ppl hate freedum. microsoft gives me the freedom to go anywhere on the internets.i hear that firefox blocks many sights,,but thats what i would expect because firefax is made from communists

  171. Malixu says:

    Some positivity:

    While I still stand by the argument that IE itself sucks, I think the IE development team are doing well with what they’ve been given, and that the problem is one with MS management. As far as I can tell, IE development more or less froze after 4 was released, with fairly minor changes coming in from when on, while the other browsers caught up and then raced ahead.

    The development team was then suddenly told they had to catch back up with everything else, and they’re trying, and IE 7 _is_ significantly better than IE 6. That said, it’s still got a long way to go…

  172. Troy says:

    Firefox had more functionality, and loaded faster than IE7 in the IE5.5 times. Microsoft should open up to some open standards. You’re bragging about the number of users on a product that is mandatory on all windows installs. Microsoft will always inflate their count with OEM and mandatory installs.

  173. Rick Deckard says:

    When IE7 first came out, I couldn’t stand the interface at all. My wife couldn’t figure out how to use the damn thing either. These days when I’m   doing OS setups, I go straight in and block it from being viewed on the updates site. On occasion it comes back complaining that I’ve hidden ‘important’ updates. Is there anyway to block it permanently? What a nuisance..

  174. j_hotch says:

    <snip>

    We’re so negative about IE because we’re fed up having to work around IE bugs. We’re fed up with code that says:

    If (Internet Explorer) {

    Do something stupid

    } else {

    Do things the right way

    }

    </snip>

    One could quibble about the terms ‘stupid’ and ‘right way’ but no matter how you slice it, this *does* suck for web developers.  If IE hewed more towards Web Standards it would make many, many people very, very happy.  A decent javascript debugger would be a welcome and quite overdue improvement as well.

  175. bugeats says:

    Congratulations on doing your job.

    IE6 and IE7 are the only things that make my job as a web developer miserable.

  176. Feild Services says:

    I’ve got my finders crossed that they’re adding more crashes to IE8. And Evel can lick my ass.

  177. air says:

    At least it’s not intended for the web….and what do you call those things?…standards? W3what?

  178. Chris says:

    IE7, yes an improvement on IE6, granted, here are some things I would like.

    1. Right click, "Move tab to new window" or drag and drop tabs

    2. Better "view source" editor than notepad.

    3. Integrated spell checking

    4. Working zoom feature that wraps text

    5. Intelligent JavaScript errors, like with ASP.NET, explain why it broke, not just “Object Error”

    6. Easier plug-in model.  If you want me to write an add-in, then make it simple

    7. Favorites, come on man, this is horrible, I just a text file because I’m so annoyed.  Why not a XML file with my favorites, one simple thing to backup, order then by date added, or whatever.

    8. Better pop-up blocker.  If I say block pop-ups, I mean all of them; I don’t care if I click a link, consider me a stupid user and block them until I explicitly remove them.

    9. Get rid of ActiveX, or disable it by default

    10. Be able to right click a tab and "Save all tab URLS as Favorites"

    11. Stop integrating with Windows

    12. Restore my session state and history for each tab if the program crashes or I close it accidentally.

    13. Information bar.  Instead of telling me what the information bar is for.  Why not tell me what the damn thing blocked?  I am so tired of accurate but completely useless context sensitive help!

    14. if I click more info, I want to know what it’s doing, not what it is.

    Those are a few of my requests…

  179. AJ says:

    Please …I beg the IE team – do NOT bring out IE8 for atleast another decade. It takes a decade for a browser to go out of the market.

    Yes – you all heard me right – I DO NOT want to have yet another browser that i need to support.

    before IE7 there were 2 cases (IE and the rest of the standards world), now I have 3 cases …IE6, IE7 and rest of the world, in every part of my js/css that goes nuts!

    Instead what I ask of the IE team is, please have an active auto upgrade that fixes the standards incompatibility in IE7.

    It is virtually impossible to come up with a new engine (ie8 or whatever!) and expect 100% standards compatibility – better is to upgrade frequently till you have won the hearts of the web developer community.

    IE has grown to become a white elephant due to its market share – given a choice, I and any "sane" web developer that I know of, will stay away – as far as possible – from IE for now and forever.

    Thanks and congrats to the IE team for having burnt [a really BIG number here] man-hours of pointless, futile effort worldwide over the last one year by giving birth to IE7.

  180. Christopher Peters says:

    Frankly, another user put it just right. It’s a shame to see Microsoft go down the tubes with such delusion.

    Microsoft needs to come out, apologize for all its shoddy products. Slow IE7, buggy Vista..and then start building products that people actually want to use rather than being forced to use by enterprises.

  181. Jim Gardner says:

    Internet Explorer used to be the best browser for Mac OS X.  Imagine that!

  182. pete says:

    problem solved: <a href=’http://www.w3junkies.com/toocool/‘>too cool for ie</a>. as long as people keep putting in hacks for microsofts terrible browsers, people will keep using them, and well just have to keep putting in hacks. stop dealing with microsofts bullshit and do things the right way.

  183. Anonymous Coward says:

    20% reduction in support volume?  That seems pretty much inline with the 20% reduction in market share.  😉

    Standards, please.

  184. Jeremy says:

    Somebody should lead a revolution. The only way to force changes in IE is for the web development community to start a strike against developing for IE browsers. I realize this is not practical for many reasons, but if only…

  185. Jeremy White says:

    Can you imagine what would happen if the whole development community persuaded their employers/clients to ditch IE? This would mean increased productivity and a decrease in expenses! I realize developers would in turn lose money, they would also experience increased health and longevity (due to reduced stress)!

  186. Nico says:

    I dont seee the improvement comparing to avant brouwser running  on top of IE 6.0  

    (so far the only productive brouwser i design i know of, it realy beats all others out there) Combined field for searching and highlighting intuitive GUI updates regulary with new nice to have options, Ms should have taken it as an example of a community tweaked product.

    Okay now there is some fishing protection (about time) that’s good, but i see some top bars to often while not required.

    Well the good thing is, Avant can still be used on top of IE7 as well… (pfwww, lucky me)

    about popularity here some real world stats of just another website

    today visits, %, brouwser type.

    257, 51.40%, MSIE, 6.0

    156, 31.20%, MSIE, 7.0

    53, 10.60%, Firefox, 2.0.0

     9,  1.80%, Safari, 1.2

     8,  1.60%, Mozilla, 5.0

     4,  0.80%, Camino, 1.5

     3,  0.60%, MSIE, 5.5

     3,  0.60%, Firefox, 1.5.0

     2,  0.40%, Opera, 8.65

     2,  0.40%, MSIE, 5.01

     2,  0.40%, Firefox, 1.0

     1,  0.20%, Mozilla, 4.0

    Oh and please stop give comments those who use products who are used less then 2 % that’s for sure not a world wide standard. Dont say that you create a website for such small market shares. I have to conlude MS does a good job on becoming a standard, by numbers of users. But well the product might require some more attention as i read in the above postings.

  187. Harrie says:

    IE7? what is that? Is it a programm?  NO

    Is it in development? NO

    Is it a bug    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  188. Noel says:

    I know you guys would like to make a better browser, but the internal politics and business model of Microsoft are antithetical to that goal.  Microsofts goal is to suppress development using standards it doesn’t control, which is why IE is still full of subtle bugs that makes web developers lives very difficult.  Microsoft is trying to tread the line between making a browser good enough to compete with better browsers and stop bleeding market share, but bad enough so that it doesn’t become a serious platform that could threaten the entire business.

    The IE team should quit and join some other company or project, because you can’t genuinely do your best under those circumstances.

  189. Jim Gardner says:

    With respect Nico (above) this is a Microsoft site.  I’ve seen almost exactly the same figures except in reverse order for Mac and Linux-centric sites.  People who don’t use Windows couldn’t give two shiny dog’s eggs about IE’s utter disregard for standards, it’s Microsoft’s own users who are complaining about this and they are being consistently ignored because egomaniacal and greedy naval gazing billionaires think they have the right to dictate to people about what constitutes good standards and practises.

  190. busting the myth says:

    We hear constantly, that MS does not want to break the web.  Fine, but do realize, that every hour, of every day, developers are building new pages, new site, new apps…. and all of them have to deal with the fact that the web is already broken in IE.  You can harp on about existing sites all you want, but the situation will never fix itself, until IE has a method of complying to standards.  Once available, the horrible broken code of the past can be cleaned up and we can all move on.

    All we want, is a version of IE that is standards compliant (even to specs posted say 2 years ago)

    Add the switches, flags, magic comments whatever you want, but please, please, please, please make sure it is IN THE NEXT RELEASE!!!

  191. John R. says:

    I pretty much agree with the sentiment among these comments.

    Your arguments about volume of adoption are nothing remarkable, all they show is that people use windows (this also seems to be your main strategy in IE development: "they’ll use it anyway, so let’s not bother too much..").

    I cannot for the life of me come to understand how the current (embrace-and-extend + institutionalized arrogace)-strategy on web technologies are going to be a net asset to your company when it spawns so intense dislike.

    If you’d really want to, you could do better, just look to any browser competitior, or what you’re doing right with the DX framework or C#.

    Even so I’d like to comment on the new tabs in IE7, i found myself actually surprised by clean and functional implementation. Thumbs up for that one, at least!

  192. Rick says:

    I for one am glad that IE still stands firm as the absolute proof Microsoft doesn’t care about the web or standards, no matter what other sounds come out of Redmond.

    It saves so much time debating those issues with people who like to believe Microsoft is actually changing.

  193. Kevin says:

    You guys CAN not be serious. Yes, IE has a big market share. Sadly.

    Do you have any idea how painful webdeveloping has become because of your ‘browser’?

    Every time I’ve made something cool, I have to spend the same I did creating, on making it all IE compatible and working around your bugs and inferior implementations.

    I can not even begin to imagine how much more productive I could have been if only you’d make this browser any good.

    How much is that to ask anyway? For a browser to be at least standard-compliant? After all these years? I literally have tears in my eyes.

    Congratulations for being proud on yourselves. That must have taken a lot of ignorance or arrogance and is quite an achievement in itself.

  194. Mark says:

    I don’t know how other web developers work, but my routine is typically something like this:

    1. spend a few minutes getting something really cool working on Firefox.

    2. spend the next few hours/days/weeks trying to figure out how to make it work on IE.

    IE is the bane of every web developer’s existence. That is reality.

    Most sensible people I know have switched their default browser to a non-IE choice.

    IE’s market share is probably just a measure of the average user not being aware of better options.

  195. What? says:

    This is the biggest bull crap I have seen in a while. Its ok for a company to say "Our focus was improved security in IE7". Its is NOT ok to say "Postive impact on users" or improved usability and more features type bull crap because really that is what it is.

    To be clear, I am a technology user, don’t care where it comes from, MS, or open source or any other place. I am not a fan boy of any sort.

    IE7 is a blot, the only reason why people use it is because they, like me, were stupid to believe that IE7 would of course be an improvement to IE6 and went off to windows update to download it. What we have is a huge, memory intensive (really, why is it taking 512M when all I have it 10 open web pages with simple HTML on them?), feature-less (other than tabs, please tell me what the improvement is? We could build tabbed browsing using IE6 web component, 3 years back, case in point, Avant Browser) and a decent developer can write one in a day (I am sure I will see some response on quality or testability or something to that effect)… so that is what you call improvement? I can go on for….

    Do I use it. Yes, I do. Would I prefer other alternatives – Yes, I like firefox and Safari (and they have their own sets of problems). I am trying out flock right now which in my very limited trial has worked good. But IE is still my primary browser, you know why, not because I am happy with it, because it is a bad habit and I put up with it. This reason for usage, and if I read through the comments above, is a dangerous indicator for any software, improve, adapt or lose your user base because their patience is only so long.

    So what bothers me, to write this tirade – the fact that this is so typical, arrogant, we are great because "so many people have used it" and then entering the focus of the IE dev team "Security in this case" as the reason for justifying why they are "Proud". If the team had the sense, they would just shut up, fix performance, add features that are present in other browsers and then some, and just ship (and yes, security & performance are NOT features, they are quality expectations). The bar is high, you better believe it, for you are the leader – a leader is supposed to lead, not cover their asses with bull like security is the focus for IE7, performance for IE8, quality for IE9, and yes, some real meat features in IE10 – type statements – that means your management doesnt have a clue on building software that wows  – rather you have become a red tape filled organization where you spend 10 months figuring out what you should be building and 2 months actually building it. I would rather see some independent reviews and folks in the community say – hey I love this, this rocks, than blow your own horn.

  196. wideawakewesley says:

    As a very well educated technical employee of a massive Microsoft competitor, I have to congratulate you on IE7. I absolutely love the browser and while I wouldn’t mind more addons, it does everything I want, rarely if ever crashes and does it all in good speed.

  197. Sigge says:

    Web designers: When estimating the cost of developing a website for a paying customer, put an extra item on the quota: "Internet Explorer, additional development" and estimate some realistic sum for what you think the oddities in IE cost in development time and show it to the customer.

    We need more people to recognize the problem.

  198. jdub says:

    I use Firefox exclusively because it is standards compliant and I have become dependent on a number of the extensions. One thing, however, it FREQUENTLY crashes. The "fix" (which doesn’t always work) usually consists of recreating your profile, a pain in the butt unless you have a barebones one. Plus FF has ALWAYS had major memory leaks (and there is nothing you can do about that one.) Go to the Mozilla forums for the sad truth. IE is at least a stable application.

  199. Dear IE team,

    How did you think people were going to respond to this type of post? Either 1)you are out of touch with the web development community and how we feel about IE, or 2)you know how we all feel but choose to press on with this type of marketing dribble.

    Either way, it’s almost like this is an abusive relationship you have with the web development world. I could care less if it takes Microsoft 5 years to develop the next Windows OS… but it’s different with your web browser. If IE8 and CSS3 adoption is 5 years away, you effect our livelihoods. And I really hate that.  

    It’s not that I love to hate you, I really want to love you.  I wish you’d just communicate better, develop quicker, and aggressively/fully support standards. If an open source project (webkit) or a less-funded foundation (mozilla) can do this, then why can’t one of the world’s richest companies manage it?

  200. James says:

    IE 7 fails.

    Vista fails.

    Microsoft fails.

    If I had my choice, I would be on a Mac this instant.  But it’ll have to wait until the summer.

  201. Francois Hamel says:

    Still using Firefox thank you.

    Once you decide to write some basic web page layout using CSS you just realize how painful web  development is thanks to IE6 and IE7.

    IE7 SHOULD have FULLY supported the web standards BEFORE ever being released. Now everyone needs to  hack their pages because so many ignorant people are still using IE6 and will continue to use IE7 for a while.

    Thank you for IE7? not so much. Get back to work, rewrite it from scratch….whatever…make it work like it should and like all the other browsers duh.

  202. Drew says:

    <blockquote>"Internet Explorer used to be the best browser for Mac OS X.  Imagine that!"</blockquote>

    Why do you think it was discontinued? 😉

  203. Adam> says:

    IE beats Firefox anyday just by the fact that IE implements Security Zones.

    In IE I can assign certain websites as Trusted and have them run and install ActiveX etc. I can assign certain websites to Restricted Zone and not have them run any ActiveX/Javascript, etc. And I can put the rest of the web in the Internet Zone and choose the security settings as I see fit. And I get a nice little indicator in the IE status bar telling me what zone I’m in right now. Now the zone implementation in IE is not perfect and has never been fully fixed. For example, if I add a website to a zone, and it downloads an Activex from a different subserver, that gets treated as Internet zone rather than put in with Trusted Zone.

    Either Firefox does not have security zones, or I am ignorant of the fact. And I don’t want a add-on or a script that some 15 year old wrote. I want it in the browser. If you want to write a better browser, it should have all the features of other browsers and more, not missing critical features here and there. No other browser has implemented Security Zones. It’s the reason I switched over from Netscape, back in the days, and refuse to use Firefox.

  204. Andrew Powell says:

    Hey how about that lovely ‘Operation Aborted’ error message that has been in the damn browser since IE5.5 ? When are your wonderful developers that should be so congratulated gonna get around to fixing the DOM so developers, like myself, don’t have to write ridiculous hacks in order to modify the DOM without that lovely error message?

    You’re pusing me closer and closer to using another browser full time. (And this is coming from an IE fanboy. People who know me, know this.)

  205. Seth says:

    I hope I never have to use another "if IE" statement again in my entire life. Having to do it in the first place is so ass-backwards – if it’s broken… FIX IT! I’m tired of work around for work arounds in IE.

    I would argue that most people using IE7 don’t use anything else because they aren’t aware they have a choice – you’d be surprised at a user’s mental model… But all of my customers are shown FF while we build their sites, and most of them switch over, and never touch IE again.

    FF has it’s own host of bugs, but side by side, things get fixed in the FF-realm… sooner, rather than never.

  206. ES4 SVG CSS3 says:

    Can Microsoft please officially EOL Internet Explorer and reserve their future failings for Silverlight?

    In other words… why don’t you do the world a favor?

  207. Thomas says:

    Please, please, please just accept W3C standards.

  208. Josh says:

    IE7 is much improved over IE6, but it needs to keep coming. As it is I will be spending several more years FORCED to support IE6, and now maybe even IE7. The sooner MS can get IE up to speed with CSS standards, the sooner my life and every other web developers life can get easier.

    When is IE8 and when is more support for cross browser standards? We have our main CSS file (for every browser other than IE), and IE7 CSS file, and a IE6 and below CSS file. Our site looks noticeable worse in IE than Firefox/Safari/Opera.

    And don’t even get me started on IE plugins and IE 7 – what a hack tabs were. Maxthon is a better browser, built on top of IE. How is that MS?

    Posted from Firefox.

  209. Seth says:

    Re: Adam

    "And I don’t want a add-on or a script that some 15 year old wrote."

    You realize what you just said is a completely invalid argument, and sounds totally ridiculous, almost blatantly idiotic.

    You are very ignorant of FF’s abilities, and what you want to accomplish can be done with a combination of FF’s inherent features, and 3rd party extensions, especially the amazingly deft "NoScript".

    But since you argue that a browser can only be "secure" (you do realize you can break out of trusted zones, right?) if the abilities are built by the company who made the product in question, then you are obviously not using Microsoft products.

  210. Ted Grimes says:

    I’m a customer relations rep for a large online trade company and speak with thousands of customers a year.  Over the last nine months, I’ve made it a habit to casually ask which browser the customer is using.  When the answer is IE6/7 (which it almost always is) I nonchalantly mention how Firefox is much better.

    What’s interesting is that most responses are to the tune of "Thanks, I’m definitely going to try it out" as opposed to a more lukewarm reply.  Quite a few even took the time to send an email stating how they switched and stopped using IE altogether.

    My perspective is that anything that makes our customer happy and reduces support on our end ($$$) is part of my job.  Switching people away from IE to Firefox has been a slam-dunk and other reps are starting to do the same.

  211. NL says:

    Congrats!

    IE7 certainly is more secure!  I have witnessed it myself.

    Seeing as I only use it to visit web sites on our internal intra-net, it is rock-solid secure.  

    I wouldn’t trust it to open an Internet site farther than I could throw Bill Gates.

  212. HamHanded says:

    I doubt this is what the softies wanted when they made this post.  But truth cannot be concealed, and now it is out, in the open.

    How can you ignore such a strong need of your customers (and developers), to get more standards compliant.  I’m sure it isn’t that difficult.  You’ve got the people, and they have certainly got the brains.

    The only reason this charade continues is because it is   more important for MS to maintain its dominant *cough*monopoly*cough* position rather than help customers or developers.

    No wonder people like me moved, and will never look back.

    Posted from Firefox, on Linux.

  213. It’s good to be the monopoly.

    Throw out all your stats about how many millions are using IE. What’s the old adage about how millions of flies on a manure truck can’t be wrong?

    Any web developer knows the headaches one has to go through to insure that their site functions in IE.

    And for what reason?

  214. IE is such an annoying browser to work with as a developer. Not only do the generalized browser standards not exist in IE, but what is supported it utter crap!

    There’s always something that goes wrong in IE if you develop with proper semantic structure w/ html * css. It’ll look great in Firefox, Safari, Opera, and what have you BESIDES IE.

    IE deserves to be boycotted by developers, I certainly want to take that stance.

    Don’t even get me started on debugging it.

  215. colonel32 says:

    thanks for making my life even more difficult with IE7 and Vista. i wish microsoft could get something right. I’ll be going to linux and firefox with hopes of never seeing a microsoft product again.

  216. Cory R. King says:

    Hi,

    I like Microsoft products.  Office 2007 is a major improvement over previous versions.  Visual Studio 2008 cannot be beat.  Vista forward thinking and goergous.

    But you know what?  IE6 and IE7 has made my life hell.  Your crumby browser, sadly used by 70% of my traffic, has shaved years off my life in added hassle.  Do you know how heart breaking it is to work on your perfectly designed website in Firefox (which has much better tools for developers) and look at in in IE7 and see it trashed?  I have been brought to near tears by how frustrating it is to work around your browser.  

    You company has a DEVELOPERS! mantra.  This is reflected in the quality found in Visual Studio and MSDN.  But IE7 has developers too.  Very neglected ones.

    Please.  For the love of everything.  Improve your browser.  Not in a year.  Not in two years.  Do it now and do it often.

    Please.

    Signed,

    The Web Development Community.

  217. Derreck says:

    I hate having to resort to a bunch of CSS hacks to support your new browser, in addition to your other browsers.  What’s so hard in swallowing your pride and releasing "Internet Explorer 8 based on Gecko"?

  218. King says:

    why can not you just use Mozilla as your base

    and drop your crappy and buggy code ? That will

    make everyone’s job easier !

  219. Sergio says:

    Ironically, increased usage of IE7 will only ensure IE is on a slow-track for future development and standards compliance.

    The business case for budget allocations for this project will only decrease when the PHBs feel, "victory is in sight!"

    And I echo the sentiments of many here in saying that developing in CSS/XHTML means you waste too much time on what should be needless IE work-arounds.

    Sadly, the World Wide Web should not be a battle ground for browser, video and sound file format dominance because the casualties of that war are the people who use it.

  220. Kong,R says:

    Supporting the endless quirks in both IE6 and IE7 adds about 30% more time and cost to our front-end development process. Every day, it seems that we encounter a new CSS or JS oddity that requires yet another work around. On one recent project, or IE bugfix stylesheet had more line of code than the original stylesheet that displays just fine in every other modern browser.

    Thus, we would prefer that IE just disappear off the face of the earth. But since that won’t happen anytime soon, I offer my congratulations. You took a horrible disaster of a product and made it slightly less crappy! Good for you.

    PS: Too bad Auto update isn’t turned on by default in XP. If it was, your IE 7 adoption rates might be quite a bit higher, and we would be cursing your names a little less often.

  221. nh says:

    IE always makes me want to shoot something… or myself. I design and code a beautiful website, which works perfectly in Safari, Firefox, Opera and others. Then I move to IE. Some things look good. Most don’t. And it isn’t my fault. Rather, it’s the idiotic way IE handles any sort of modern, reliable programming. Add to that the random crashes of IE, and I wonder how I get anything done on that browser.

    Please: accept defeat from the Mozilla group, stop development of IE, and focus on making Windows actually work. You’re spreading your workforce too thin. You need to focus on one thing at a time, because otherwise, you’ll be in your current position: turning out many shoddy products, instead of turning out only a few incredible products every year.

  222. Opera Fan says:

    I’ve been using Opera since 1998, which was the first year I got into computers. I’ve tried other browsers, but feel safest using Opera. It’s had tabs for many years, something I’m surprised took so long to make it into IE. What really amazes me is the overall amount of highly useful features it has, while those of IE remain somewhere between minimal to non existent.

    I do, however, applaud the anti phishing and other anti fraud measures that have been implemented into IE. Security should be #1 at all times in any product in my opinion.

    #2 in my opinion should be the following of standards – not creating your own.

    Additional features come after those 2 things. Given IE’s security track record and inability to follow standards, it has fallen very, very far behind superior alternatives which have understood the importance of following strong security practices as well as standards. 300 million users means that you have a browser that ships by default with the worlds most common operating system – nothing more. Put even more effort into security and following standards, and you will gain a much happier and stronger user base.

    I don’t dislike IE, but I see no reason to use something that makes me feel like it’s 1998 all over again, puts me at bigger risk of being targeted by malicious websites (when you’re the biggest, you will be targeted the most, so you need to code with safety in mind at all times), and refuses to follow standards.

  223. cge says:

    No one cares about your rants.  IE7 works juuuuust fine.  Thank you, MSFT, for another kick-ass product.

  224. Ben McCann says:

    IE7 is way behind other browsers in terms of standards compliance.  While I’m sure you intend to slow the adoption of other browsers by ensuring IE displays sites differently, you are further breeding frustration and hatred with your crappy software and monopolistic practices.

  225. SS says:

    Yes, well umm, you can count me as an IE7 statistic only for the reason that Vista didn’t support firefox the last time I checked. I don’t use IE7 willingly and there are way too many little things that don’t work quite right when going to websites compared to IE6 and firefox.

  226. d says:

    You people don’t get it.  The entire point of IE 7 was a stopgap to prevent people from moving to Firefox.  Firefox has tabs – look we have tabs too.  Firefox displays pages correctly – look we sort of do.  Firefox has something called web standards implemented – look, we can pretend that we made progress.

    IE7.x will not be out ever, because the whole point is to make managers say the following words: "We do not have enough in the budget to support two browsers.  Therefore, we have decided to test this release on IE only."  And for more enlightened ones, "If you have the time to make things work on other browsers, go for it."

    IE8 will be Silverlight + enough XHTML to specify where Silverlight features go.  And there will be a point and click web dev kit, and everyone will say "I develop for IE only because it’s so easy."  And informed technical-minded people the world over will give up and shoot themselves.

  227. ryan says:

    do i need to say anything really? IE sucks… adhere to standards or die, this is the web 😉

  228. M says:

    IE6 and IE7 collectively cost the company that I work for (600 people) many many thousands of hours of lost time in searching for obtuse and elaborate workarounds for absolutely baroque and psychotic layout bugs and other strange behaviour for which only Internet Explorer is known for.

    The sheer amount of ill will that Microsoft has created through its lack of concern for the Explorer product has got to be so widespread and massive at this point as to be reaching some kind of tipping point — I sincerely hope that someone at Microsoft can grasp the mathematics and potential side effects of creating literally a worldwide army of young, intelligent developers whose influence and decision-making powers grow and grow every day, all of whom which harbour a practically feverish resentment not only for Internet Explorer but indeed everything else that Microsoft produces. A reverse halo effect that will increasingly kick this company in the ass.

    SHAME on the IE7 "team", if such a thing even exists.

  229. Jamie says:

    The comments show the amount of deserved hatred floating around the web over IE, and this on an IE blog..

    It must be good to be a monopoly, being able to hold back web advances for your own gains.  As seen in these comments though, people are waking up, realizing IE is a horrible browser and realizing MS is purposefully trying to break and hold back the web to protect their precious desktop monopoly.

    Google showed Microsoft with ajax what horrible things can happen if they allow technology to advance, they don’t want to make that mistake again.

    I can only hope this is IE’s last birthday, but sadly I think their death will come slower

  230. d says:

    I just realized how many sites there are dedicated to IE bugs – complete test cases, samples, descriptions, and in many cases an image of the intended behavior (often from a standards-compliant browser).

    The entire internet is providing free, comprehensive, repeatable testing with itemized lists and zero ambiguity.  If I had one tenth of the feedback IE has, my team’s software (which has to render on the engine with so many documented bugs) would be spot-on perfect, provably so, taking about 80% of the time to develop, compared to not having that feedback.

    Even with the sheer amount of bugs, the descriptions could not be any clearer and there is actual test code which can be loaded quickly.

    Suggestion – make an A/B test for every bug.  Page 1 has the first bug, along with a JPG/GIF/PNG of how it should look, and a link to the next page.  Regression tests would consist of one guy clicking "next" hundreds of times to make sure everything renders correctly.  And each developer can be assigned a bug according to the page number.  This requires very little assembly, and no research – it has already been done for free.

    I would think myself in heaven if I had such a clear and dedicated user base who was able to locate bugs and provide test cases.

    I bet one person could fix all of these bugs in one year, unless the codebase is so horribly convoluted that each fix requires a redesign.  But many of the samples I have seen are simple if (something) then (adjust something) fixes, or even default settings.

    PM for overall IE must be a dream job – unless higher ups are saying "intentionally sabotage everything for market share"

  231. Count me in – in counting me out. Although I could not care less about the platform and would quite happily use MS products without any semi-religious feelings about open source (despite having worked for a company doing such products), I do the best I can to fight – yes fight! – Microsoft. I have come to see it as a personal attack on my person what Microsoft is doing with their Internet Explorer. I have watched the "Browser Wars Episode II: Attack of the DOMs" video on http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/, with Chris Wilson of the IE team, and he sounds very reasonable. The problem is, reality and facts don’t back his appearance there at all!

    If MS thinks you can afford alianating so many people because the big businesses are going to make sure you remain a monopoly with their purchasing behavior, go ahead, we’ll see. I just don’t see why you deliberately weaken your own position. I read an article on spiegel.de, one of the largest news sites in Germany, that says MS IE rules their webserver logfiles only during business ours. Outside those Firefox is the #1 browser. I’ll continue doing my very best to increase that browsers market share. I’ll also boycott Silverlight – and I’ve a multimedia services business. For the same reason mentioned above – I take it personal that you WASTE MY TIME with your INCOMPATIBLE STUPID PRODUCT!!!

  232. By the way, who is the idiot who a few comments up from this one says Firefox doesn’t run on Vista??? What BS!!!

  233. webdevhed says:

    Congrats on a more secure browser, but why do you still insist on making life hell for web developers?

  234. Alex says:

    You know what? IE is irrelevant to me because of its broken implementation of standards. Standards are there for a reason. I dont care what your motivation is for not following them, if IE doesn’t follow them, then you are providing a broken product, and people will realize this and slowly but surely switch to alternatives. And do you know what I tell other people regarding a broken product? Ditch it. Simple as that.

    Let me break it down for you. I design a website that is compliant to standards. An IE user comes across it and tells me whats wrong with it though his/hers IE browser. I tell that user that his/her browser is broken and that you need to switch to one that isnt, ie Firefox. User switches, everyones happy.

    I try to point out and show to as many people as possible alternatives to IE, and each and every one of those users are happy. So until you fix your broken browser, im just not going to put up with it, and you can sit back and watch as, slowly but surely, your marketshare decreases.

  235. Happy says:

    Here’s a newsflash for you:

    IE sucks!

    It might have brushed up against a standard at some  point in its life.

    Let’s see;

    CSS capability: not good.

    Javascript compatibility: bad.

    Having to code special cases for a webpage, so that IE can render it, when *every* other browser works out of the box? DEFINITELY.

  236. Chris Nasr says:

    I can’t understand how you can pat yourself on the back for any version of IE at any time.

    There was a brief period where no other browser options existed, this is when IE6 became number one. This is the same reason Microsoft didn’t come up with an IE7 for six years. Why bother wasting resources on a market you already own? Why care about developers when you hold all the power and they’re just people trying to do their job?

    For years I didn’t even want to look at JavaScript because every time I tried IE wouldn’t work as expected, as standards dictated. And not just the JavaScript, but the DOM, and the CSS, and most disturbingly, even the HTML. It was claimed by many that IE7 would follow standards, be better, make up for IE6 and six years of nothing. So how come I still have to write two sets of code, one for IE, and one for every other browser on the market?

    I’m all for new things. Every new feature that went into a standard came from someone putting it in a browser first. Standards aren’t some dark force that controls us, people dictate standards. That’s creativity. That’s progress. If you created a browser that followed standards and then built on top of it, added all sorts of special goodies to it? Even if most of them ended up sucking, no one would be calling you complaining about what you did.

    Look at the proof, look at the amazing number of tested cross browser JavaScript libraries that have shown up. Even cross browser CSS schemes. It became obvious that no one wanted to waste time having to constantly write if/else statements everywhere. It’s insulting to developers, and its tiring, knowing your wasting half your time every day.

    I’ve co-created one startup, SmartMediaWorks (http://www.smartmediaworks.com/), and created another on my own, Fuel for the Fire (http://fuelforthefire.ca/). No one uses IE except developers for testing, and this policy didn’t change when IE7 was released. I even make sure to warn people against installing ActiveX plugins in other browsers. Just another technology Microsoft touted that ended up being filled with exploits.

    Every since Vista came out and we tried it out for a few weeks, I’ve lost total faith in Microsoft. I used to look down at anyone who would bash Microsoft, simply because it’s hard to make everyone happy on every set of hardware. But you still have to try, at least make an effort. I find it such a horrible product that I am currently working on a plan to convert people to Linux, everyone, not just developers, for the eventually day when we can no longer get our hands on XP.

    I will never use another Microsoft product or technology. I will never download another one of their demos or betas or trials. Why waste my time downloading something that will most likely be used to create false statistics like the ones stated above? Why help encourage a company winning over other big companies when no one cares about the poor people using the products.

    Its really hard to respect any company that is strangling creativity and progress in an entire industry.

  237. Adam Tichy says:

    I’m a web developer, not a literary scholar, therefore I cannot quite find proper words to describe my total disgust with IE. I honestly can’t wait long enough for that horrible thing to just crawl into the depths of forgotten projects and die.

    Most of my customers provide consumer or business internet services and they rightfully insist that the web applications work properly in all major browsers. Since MS packages this crap together with the OS it is a small wonder that in whatever diminishing numbers, the IE is still out there in force. It makes my life a living hell! I have to either seriously compromise the design and functionality or essentially build several variants of the sites just to make it work for the ignorant IE6/7 crowd.

    And I’m not so sure the smaller number of support calls is something to boast. Judging from the stats on my sites, more and more people access them via the "other" browser(s). If this trend continues (and hopefully it will) you will be receiving even less support calls in the future. 300 million my foot.

  238. Josh Baverstock says:

    Microsoft:

    I rolled out Firefox at my clients long ago, because of security issues with IE. IE is easier to manage, especially on a large scale. However, I have no intention of moving those clients back to IE. You lost our trust with unacceptable security problems, and you’re not going to get it back with a non-standard browser, even if it’s now secure.

    Compared to the 90’s, Microsoft has made dramatic improvements with security, but it’s been reactive. Only after your product’s flaws are exposed have you taken security seriously, unlike Novell who took it seriously from the beginning.

    I must say I truly admire Microsoft’s marketing division. They are the most impressive part of your company. Microsoft’s management, marketing, and teamwork are truly remarkable.  It’s ironic, where’s Novell today? They had excellent engineering, horrible marketing, and horrible management.

    Your performance should be a case study in every business school.

    If the product liability laws were changed so Microsoft could be sued like General Motors can be sued for defective products, that would level the playing field.

    I lost clients because of Small Business Server 4.0 and Outlook 97. Heck, I had to use debugging tools to watch Outlook 97 open its own .dll files in read/write mode, then corrupt them. Why would ANY program be written to open executable code in read/write mode? I had to set the files themselves as read only to avoid a problem your tech support wouldn’t admit existed.

    Watching and studying Microsoft has given be a great respect for the art of management, I wanted to pursue an MBA after watching your company during the 90’s. With an inferior product you took market share from your competition. WOW!

    And as for Novell, well I guess that’s what happens when (most) engineers step into management. Someday if I step into management, I’ll never allow myself to make those mistakes. Management is its own art form, microsoft proved that to me. Bill Gates: you are truly amazing. I wish I could say that same about your products.

  239. Gilbert N Sullivan says:

    @PM by M: beautifully put.

    So much of my time has been utterly wasted making standards-compliant code work in IE.  And now I’m going to do  something about it.

    Even though in the beginning I used to be a staunch Microsoft product user, after years of keeping the faith it dawned on me, having tried some non-MSFT products, that actually, for all their billions they don’t give anything back in terms of quality, design or experience.  Firefox blew me away wen it first came out, because it actually seemed to be designed to help me do my work… then I saw that to be astounded by that proposition said quite a lot.

    Once I’d realised this – and I had tried to keep an open mind for as long as I could – getting to grips with the idea that software could be produced better in an open, accountable environment (for free!) I started advising people to seek out alternative PC software too.

    Ultimately, after my XP machine’s performance had crawled to an unusable halt *again*, rather than try and fix it, I simply walked out of the office and bought a Mac Pro.

    Now I’ve pretty much decided that after years of developing HTML and now AJAX, I simply don’t want to any more: IE sucks the joy out of the whole experience.  From now on it’s Flash, Flex and AIR – basically anything that IE can’t screw up.  

    What’s more, I’ll tell people – non-developers, obviously: I don’t know anyone who would want to be Windows-based by now for web work – to buy a Mac or recommend Ubuntu…  And they’ll listen to me because I’m someone who knows about computers.

    So there you have it: the life-cycle of a Mac fanboy, all thanks to IE.  Just remember Microsoft: it didn’t have to be this way!

  240. Atomic says:

    I don’t care about your stupid stats. Follow the damn w3c standards like we’ve all been asking you to for years now. When are you morons going to figure out that this priority number one??

  241. Lelouch says:

    IE7 has been very disappointing. Even with all of IE6 flaws, I still used it time to time because of sheer speed. With IE7, I have a slow Firefox wannabe.

  242. Robert says:

    I wish I could bill Microsoft for the time I’ve wasted over the years to get compliant web pages – which work perfectly in Firefox, Safari and Opera – to display correctly in their browser (and usually the previous two versions as well). Honestly, IE adds perhaps 20 – 30% to the development time required for most websites, especially those with interesting designs. Someone ends up paying for that – either the now irate client or the cost is absorbed by the  developer. Most small development firms and contract programmers can’t afford to absorb those kind of costs, either.

    Most web development projects I’ve worked on usually involved at least one instance of explaining why although we developed a feature on budget at first, we needed three extra days here and an extra day there to get it working correctly in IE. I’ve had to forego a clean, simple 3-column design and replace it with an image which faked the background columns because IE would not lay out the columns correctly! This drastically changed other parts of the design and made the whole thing much more complex than it needed to be. This kind of thing happens all the time with IE. What makes it worse is it’s often required to support at least the two latest versions of IE, and historically they have always displayed pages diffrerenty.

    This situation is unacceptable, Microsoft. You have the talent and resources to develop a browser as good as Firefox, Safari or Opera, so why don’t you?

  243. Themisticles says:

    Can I ask a serious question?

    Why is it so hard for MS to follow the web standards that *EVERY* other web browser manages to accept (automaticallY)?

    Let me say it again: EVERY OTHER WEB BROWSER ON THE PLANET CAN RENDER A PAGE BETTER THAN IE (6 or 7).

    What possible reason does MS have that can justify screwing up a page render, when all other browsers render it correctly?

    And then you have IE 8, which I can assure you, will suck, even though it probably doesn’t even exist.

    Quit pushing off on us your lousy, cluefree, excuses for a browser. If we have to make code for it, special, so that it will render, you’ve done a crap job. Make IE work like firefox. Make IE work like Opera. Make IE work like Safari. But, by all means, DON’T make IE work like IE.

  244. OSource-dude says:

    Is it me or has MS done it again, IE7 a weak copy of FireFox – just a tad bit late don’t you think so Bill?  Tabbing?  Pu-lease, FF did that a million years ago…  Middle click to close tab?  Come on…  What ever happened to innovation and originality??

  245. Alastair says:

    Unfortunately ie7 is just a slight improvement over ie 6 as far as user experience goes, scrollbar tends to stick. Slight, I tell you. As far as developer experience goes I don’t see any improvements that really matter to a dev. And what’s this Spy-vs-Spy clandestine behaviour from the IE team. If IE8 gets no lip service soon about what it is all about and maybe just a release date I will have to have my organisation move to Firefox.

  246. RMx says:

    What does "…fewer vulnerabilities than previous versions of IE over the same time period" mean? You are not expected to have as much bugs as the previous version in a new version. After all, you have fixed the bugs once and now you should know what bugs to expect (at least).

    And another thing… Does the following thing from MSIE6 ring a bell?

    ===

    Based on NCSA Mosaic. NCSA Mosaic(TM); was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

    Distributed under a licensing agreement with Spyglass, Inc.

    ===

    Does this blog’s responses mean that without Mosaic from Spyglass, IE has been doomed?

  247. drew says:

    Ie7 is a step forward, but it’s still really lagging

    The most serious gripe I have with ie is that it dies not support web standards. Please follow the w3c. Why is it the sites I make work perfectly in firefox, safari and opera, but not Internet explorer? It’s absurd to suggest microsoft "can’t" do it.  

    I don’t understand how microsft, the most powerful software company with the mot resources cannot make a web standards compliant browser. It honestly seems like MS is deliberately breaking web standards just to keep people forced to windows and ie. This is not acceptable and my reaction has been to lose interest in microsft in general. By violating the spirit of the www and the spirit of open communication, you have lost my trust and respect. As a result, I no longer want anything to do with any microsoft product. No amount of value in the sftware you make can impress me because I have no confidence in your  method and reliability.  

  248. Well… I’ve read many comments, some quite informed, and also a lot of noise from fanbois on a number of sides.

    My $0.02…

    Internet Explorer has come a long way from the NCSA Mosaic-like browser it started out as.  Not sure how many people remember using IE 2.0, I first saw it in Windows NT 4.0.

    In general, IE is a lot better at supporting the W3C standards than it was 10 years ago.  But it’s still lagging behind in a number of areas.  Fixed positioning of CSS elements and numerous other quirks cause me much pain as a web developer.

    I spose before I say much more, I should point out where I stand.  I’m a Linux developer for the Gentoo Foundation, and responsible for assisting in the maintenance their port to the MIPS platform (SGI workstations, Cobalt Qube2, and more recently, the Lemote Fulong).

    I don’t consider myself a fanboi, I use what I’m most comfortable with.  I have used IE and Windows as a primary browser (and OS) in the past.  I’ve also used other OSes, such as IBM OS/2 Warp, AtheOS/Syllable, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DOS, Minix and SCO OpenServer 5.  I first started using Linux back in 1996, and I now use it almost exclusively.

    I use Firefox 2.0 as my primary web browser, but  use IE6, IE7, Opera, Safari and Konqueror for testing of sites.

    I find that much of my time, when developing webapps for public use, I spend a significant amount of my time fixing problems that have arisen in IE.  Pages that work flawlessly on every other browser, seem to fail hopelessly on IE for unknown reasons.

    Now… regarding the various browsers.

    I use Firefox for my needs.  I find its use of extensions to be rather convenient.  In addition, it runs on all the hardware platforms I use (i386 and MIPS).  It has good coverage of the web standards, is fairly good on the security front, and performs satisfactory for my needs.

    The primary reasons why I don’t use, or recommend, IE as a web browser (in order of importance):

    (1) It has had a very spotty history regarding security.

    (2) Its standards compliance seems to be lagging rather badly.  Things that work flawlessly in all the other major browsers, seem to break in IE.

    (3) AFAIK It can’t be customised nearly as much as browsers like Firefox or Opera

    IE scares me in some ways.  If you look at Windows Update, it functions as an applet on a web page.  My query: WTF is a web APPLET doing modifying my OS??  This should be the role of a standalone application.  If Microsoft’s "blessed" applet can modify the OS, what’s to say some smart-arse blackhat couldn’t construct an applet that does the same thing for mischief?  This is something no other browser does — for good reason!

    Looking around, I notice the people who seem to cop the worst spyware problems, run IE as their primary browser.  I recall many instances where I’ve had to help remove some uninvited search toolbar that wound up on the browser — and that’s at the minor end of the scale.

    Opera is a nice browser in many ways.  It’s not my cup of tea… and in any case, it doesn’t work on all the computers I use here (I’m typing this at the moment on a Lemote Fulong PC running a MIPS-clone Loongson2E CPU — Opera isn’t available for this computer).  I prefer to use the same browser on all systems.  That said, it is one of the browsers I do recommend to people, alongside Firefox.

    Safari seems a bit basic and inflexible for my liking.  It completely ignores the user’s UI preferences for colours and fonts, which I dislike.  It also doesn’t seem to have much scope for expansion.

    Konqueror is another browser I use on occasion, but I find it too, to be a little hard to extend.  It also seems to be a bit slower in its rendering than Firefox.

    One thing I hear a lot, is the comment that "IE is faster" or "IE uses less RAM".  I put this to the test some time ago.  Using my desktop PC at the time, running Gentoo Linux (i386), I installed both Firefox 1.5 (latest at the time), and Internet Explorer 6.0 under WINE.

    http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=13718&p=40

    I found that yes, Firefox occupies more RAM.  IE however, chews more CPU cycles to render the same page.  RAM is usually pretty easy to upgrade, the CPU however, is often a more limited resource and isn’t so easily replaced.  So on that basis, I’ll take the RAM hog over the CPU hog.

    I would have tried it for IE7, but the license forbids it apparently.

    In closing, I do hope that Microsoft considers the following:

    (1) Work on the standards compliance on IE.  Web developers should not have to waste time fixing their site so it works on IE — they should be able to design to match W3C standards and have it "JustWork".

    (2) Consider dropping ActiveX … it’s useless, proprietary nonsense that only invites spyware.  Windows Update should be made into a standalone application — I see no benefit in having it web-based, applets modifying the OS only invites trouble IMO.

    (3) Keep up the work on the security front.  Fewer bugs is definitely a good sign.

  249. Concomitant says:

    Do you really want to improve IE7 (nee IE8)?

    Here’s how:

    Make it conform to standards. You know, like every other browser on the planet. Make it ACID compliant.

    Make it so that we don’t have to write our page code differently for IE than we do for every other browser.

    You do realize that this kind of goal is achievable? We don’t want a browser that breaks the standard.

    We don’t want a browser that is written by a company that wants everything to be the way *it* wants.

    You do know that making IE conform to standards is *easier* than making it fail, don’t you?

    And don’t be confused by the text of this message, or the content of pretty much every other post, IE (all versions) is fundamentally broken. Give up on your idea of web dominance. Fix the browser, make it conform to *EVERY* standard. Everybody will be happier in the long run.

  250. Colin Cogle says:

    I’ve all but given up on Internet Explorer users.  Whenever I code a site, I always use XHTML 1.1 and CSS 3.0, and let the user agents worry about displaying it properly.  I’d serve XHTML as the proper application/xhtml+xml were it not for Internet Explorer.

    My boss made me implement a couple of IE workarounds, which were not easy, let me tell you.

    If users want to see my site as I intended, I have links to Firefox and Safari.  Quite a bold policy for a corporate site, but I’ve noticed IE’s user agent all but vanish from my server logs — and this is from a site which most users browse from their office computers.

    Microsoft is sinking.  All hands, abandon ship.  IE7 was too little, too late, and unless IE8 actually brings about standards-compliance, I’d say Microsoft has lost the browser wars.  Bundle Firefox and Safari with Windows 7 and just let the poor Internet Explorer die in peace.

  251. dave says:

    Tony,

     10-20% less support call volume is nothing to brag about, it just means that less people are using IE7! Please stop making statements that only embarrass Microsoft and reveal your vast ignorance.

     Let me let you in on a little secret: I am a web programmer and most of the people I know use Firefox. Firefox is superior to IE because it has better support, bugs are fixed faster and new enhancements are introduced continually; this and the fact that it supports existing standards.

     So the next time you post a blog, please say something about how you made your browser better than before, don’t waste our time with empty platitudes and dull exaltations.

  252. Ryushe says:

    First off, what I find interesting is the complete lack of response from the IE team.

    Secondly, again some real world stats for you all to share from a website getting around 55.000 unique visitors each month. This website is not only for the technically minded either, so no excuses along the lines of "But of course you get more Firefox hits!".

    Anyways, here’s the short list:

    Firefox 58.6 %

    MS Internet Explorer 30.1 %

    Opera 10.1 %

    iBrowse 0.4 %

    Mozilla 0.4 %

    Safari 0.2 %

    Others 0%

    For IE, the numbers are 18.6% for IE 7.0, and 11.5% for IE 6.0. Firefox 2.0.0.11 makes up 38.1% of the total.

    Again, these are REAL WORLD figures from a site with a pretty standard visitor profile. Draw your own conclusions.

    Also, I’d LOVE to switch over full time to Firefox myself, but the ONE thing that keeps me using IE is Single Sign On for our company intranet applications, which most of the time only need IE cause they utilize some very specific IE oriented code instead of more standards based code. Can you guess which intranet portal system we’re running? :)

  253. Leopold says:

    Microsoft is "going down" because, like all of the above posts prove that MS is going in the wrong direction and is lost beyond words…

  254. ryAn says:

    Quit being such f—ing babies and download Firefox. It’s always been better than IE. Actually, I forgot that stupid application even existed until I came across this blog. Crazy.

    -ryan

    mullethair03@yahoo.com

  255. Reid says:

    @ryAn:

    You clearly haven’t read the posts.  Everyone that is complaining already uses an alternative(s).  The real problem is that the users of the sites that the developers build are not so enlightened.  And telling users to change browsers isn’t exactly a tractable solution (have you ever talked to a user?) unless a *large* percentage of *main stream* sites do it all at once (or over a very short period of time).  Unfortunately, I doubt that management at these companies will be willing to allow this.  Or allow the developers involved to retain there positions if it is "just done."

    It really does need to happen though.  Standards compliance is necessary and I highly doubt that MS will do it unless put under *a lot* of pressure.  Say the pressure of (what they think is) 300 Million users (sophistry).

  256. onno says:

    As developer I try not to touch Microsoft products. I think I should send some invoices to Microsoft for lost time on workaround of their bugs…

    Microsoft makes my life more complicatet

  257. Reid says:

    Here’s my suggestion.  When developing a website FOR EACH WORKAROUND, AND FOR EACH INSTANCE THEREOF, send an email to support@ or other bug reporting method.  If such a communication stream does not exist, post it in the most recent blog here.  Hell, if they delete this blog to stop the flood of bug reports, start sending them to (un)related products.  Perhaps getting there "colleagues" on side and applying pressure will help.

    But, for the love of God, make them aware of how much of a piss poor product they are producing and provide incentive to fix it.  Even if it is just to stop the deluge of bug reports/blog comments/etc.

  258. Reid says:

    Here’s my suggestion.  When developing a website FOR EACH WORKAROUND, AND FOR EACH INSTANCE THEREOF, send an email to support@ or other bug reporting method.  If such a communication stream does not exist, post it in the most recent blog here.  Hell, if they delete this blog to stop the flood of bug reports, start sending them to (un)related products.  Perhaps getting there "colleagues" on side and applying pressure will help.

    But, for the love of God, make them aware of how much of a piss poor product they are producing and provide incentive to fix it.  Even if it is just to stop the deluge of bug reports/blog comments/etc.

  259. Richard says:

    you use Deep Blue computer to develop IE7? why so slow on my 4GB system.

  260. Anthony Staines says:

    We’re working with developers and the Irish public sector developing a big web based application. Roughly one third of our development costs are being spent working around bugs in IE6 and IE7.

  261. Carl D. says:

    life would be so much simpler if IE would just not exist.

    developing for IE is such a pain in the ass..

    please give up on IE

  262. Bob Jones says:

    300 Million Users huh?  So is that 300 million consumers that just bought PCs and needed to open IE to download FF???

  263. Harry says:

    I love the propaganda, and the fact you completely ignore your biggest rivals, saying that IE7 is the second most widely used browser after IE6.

    To people giving out about web developers whining. While some people may not care what developers gripes are, you are most likely end users, or project managers who only want to see the end product being a website with cross browser compatibility. While IE7 was an improvement on IE6, I love the way you "borrowed" the idea of tabbed Windows from Mozilla.

    I hope you pay heed to the comments posted here.

  264. Pete says:

    Thanks, if it wasnt for your product i would have never found Firefox!

  265. LW says:

    I back up dk’s remarks.  

    http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/11/30/the-first-year-of-ie7.aspx#6627593

    as a web developer, i will never support microsoft in any of their efforts.  in fact i will do things in my power to see that all microsoft products fails.

    and perhaps adhering to standards and being more open will allow everyone to have a better experience on the web, but i don’t believe they will bring back the countless hours spent hacking up my site so that the majority of users can experience it the way it was meant to be.

  266. Pavel S. says:

    follow W3C standards, support SVG, please.

  267. Jim says:

    Please start charging for IE. Then MS could pay all us web developers for all the time and money we spend on coping with all its bugs.

  268. Ovidiu C. says:

    <!–[if IE]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="lots_of_ie_related_fixes.css" /> <![endif]–>

  269. David says:

    All i want is for me and a couple of developers to be in a room with paintball guns and the IE team chained to a wall, maybe only then will they freakin learn. Good lord IE is really bad.

  270. HubmaN says:

    Ooh, you guys are just pathetic. Seriously, no SVG support? Proprietary scripting support? Incomplete CSS support? Trident going bullshit on GDI?

    Thank god I use Gentoo.

  271. LadyH says:

    I rarely, if ever, have any issues with any browsers i use that i dont cause myself. Thou I dont own an apple/mac/tiger/leopard, which also has issues, i do use firefox, opera and seamonkey for specific purposes on my pc and laptop. Perhaps I am one in a million that rarely has any issues with any softwares or systems. This knocking each other around is old and getting rather boring. Not one is perfect and each is trying their best to support their user base.

  272. LadyH says:

    I rarely, if ever, have any issues with any browsers i use that i dont cause myself. Thou I dont own an apple/mac/tiger/leopard, which also has issues, i do use firefox, opera and seamonkey for specific purposes on my pc and laptop. Perhaps I am one in a million that rarely has any issues with any softwares or systems. This knocking each other around is old and getting rather boring. Not one is perfect and each is trying their best to support their user base. We are enjoying ie7!

  273. Radu says:

    If something works on most modern browsers, there’s almost always a big chance that it won’t work on IE.

    If IE would not exist, the world of web development would be a better place.

  274. M K Jones says:

    This is a joke right?

    Your using irony? Sarcasm?

    Please tell us all that you were paid to write this, paid a LOT.

    Sorry if I am not being very constructive in my posting but IE7 really is THAT bad compared to the competition.

  275. mcNaz says:

    I refuse to support IE on my sites. In fact, I have specific code the displays an warning if an IE visitor is detected. Try it on http://pantherfotos.com

    IE has made my job doubly difficult in putting together this website. Several javascripts are disabled when IE is detected.

  276. If have nothing of value to add. It has all been said. But just count me in as another annoyed web-developer.

    The quirks in IE cost real time in development, hence money (not to forget, that it’s *no fun at all* to build workarounds).

    (I often fantasized of redirecting all IE-users to the firefox-download-page.)

  277. sam says:

    Dear IE dev team-

    Please continue developing IE precisely as you already are.  

    I believe this is the quickest way to kill it off.  

    The rest of us would like to get back to enjoying the web.

    Sincerely,

    Sam

  278. Ben L. says:

    @mcNaz

    very nice. if every website would do this, a LOT of people would switch to a better browser like firefox, opera or safari.

  279. xmachina says:

    developing a browser is a hard job. And i don;t expect miracles but neither can’t i hold myself commenting on :

    "Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago, before the release of IE7. This is typically a sign that the product is more stable and has fewer issues than the previous release."

    huh, really? Fortunately, this is one interpretation. And i guess you know very well what they say about statistics….

    Please, Keep WALKING. Not bragging.

  280. std says:

    By now, all modern browsers support Acid2. Why doesn’t IE support it? By refusing to improve your standards support, you waste lots of web developers’ time.

  281. Dan says:

    The development of IE needs to be turned inside-out so that every bug is open for the world to see like it is for Firefox.  The masses have spoken, and if you make it open you’ll have a huge horde of people submitting bugs, doing test case reductions, and more work freeing up your engineers to fix the bugs and bring the standards compliance IE up to that of other A-Grade browsers.

  282. defproc says:

    I once happened on a humourous pie chart detailing the "breakdown of modern web design" which attributed over a third of development time to "getting the ****** thing working in Internet ****** Explorer". Funny? certainly. True? Sadly. This surely causes hundreds of thousands of developer hours to be lost worldwide. Thus, IE’s god-awful rendering is  holding technology back!

  283. Radu says:

    If you remove all comments AGAINST IE, I wonder if you’ll have any more comments left to this post.

  284. Steven says:

    I would like to see the rendering engine of IE6 updated so we don’t need to waste so much time hacking our sites for this. IE7’s rendering engine is better, but still REALLY needs work.  But really, fix IE6 and hurry up with IE8.

  285. Paul N.Ireland says:

    As a trainee graphic designer who currently in placement has encountered more experience in web development than in University, I have to concur with the majority here.

    I learned within the first week that developing primarily for Safari is wrong, and that W3C standards would somehow help cross-browser design. I then learned that being crippled by IE6’s popularity hinders the creative process and developers all over are restricted by its interpretation of web standards.

    IE6 is now used as our common denominator in every web project. The amount of time spent adjusting our CSS for IE dramatically impedes on our creative license.

    My advice is to get an open source version of Mozilla and shamelessly place the IE logo where appropriate.

  286. Rich says:

    I am a .Net programmer and have been programming with MS Technologies for over ten years.  I am sick and tired of trying to get things to work in IE.  I waste too much time making things work in IE because the lack of standards support.  

    The quality of products that have been released in the last few years by MS is horrible.  Office 2007, Vista, IIS 7 on Vista have major bugs that make some of the features unusable.

    It sad to say even though I develop with MS technologies I won’t push IE, Vista, or any of MS other software until MS starts releasing better products.

  287. pauldwaite says:

    > IE has a lack of true dialogue with web developers.

    Is it just me, or is that somewhat ironic given that it’s written as a comment on the IE blog?

    Congratulations chaps. Here’s hoping IE 7 crushes IE 6 into the dust as fast as possible :)

  288. Mike says:

    @mcNaz

    Sadly your code is flawed because it looks at User Agent strings. I can use the User Agent Switcher extension for Firefox, set it to IE6/Win and when I visit your site it displays warning. This should not happen.

    I advise you investigate the use of conditional comments

    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537512.aspx

    You can use them to enclose the links to IE specific stylesheets and javascript.

  289. mcNaz says:

    @Mike

    Thank you for your tip and more so for your link.

  290. DJ says:

    IE7 a success?  Wow.  Thats ONE opinion for sure.  As a designer developer I love it when my site looks beautiful using valid CSS/XHTML markup in any other browser on the planet, and then when I test it in IE, KABLOOIE!  Once firefox finally takes over IE in marketshare (and it will) I will be so excited to code to a real browser and ignore the ridiculous hacks I currently have to implement in my otherwise clean code to account for IE.  Ie -> Good riddance.

  291. Andrew says:

    Right, so now I have to support two broken browsers. Not really a success.

  292. jalf says:

    Would you just buy Opera for christs sake already and end this pathetic charade! We ALL KNOW you use IE as a brake to slow down the speed of progress on the web!

  293. db cooper says:

    There is simply too much safety and flexibility in Firefox for me to consider any other browser (except maybe Opera).

    I feel sorry for folks using IE – they’re the modern day equivalent of AOLers.

  294. defproc says:

    I think you’re missing the point, jalf. If I download and use Opera, my clients are still going to wonder why everything looks garbled on their, and most of their customers’, browsers.

  295. Adrian says:

    I’m sure that a great deal of time and effort has been spent on IE7 by committed professionals and thus, as a developer myself, I will refrain from personal attacks.

    As a web developer, however, I would also like to voice my frustration with Internet Explorer.  Developing for IE sucks.  Making things work on IE is probably the most miserable part of my job.  It doesn’t have to be.  Please fix it!

  296. defproc says:

    Sorry if I look a tit now. I can’t delete former posts. I’ve just read your comment in a differenct perspective and realised you might have been directing your comment to the IE team. In fact, you probably were!

    </dignity> 😛

  297. Tom says:

    "We believe IE 7 is the safest Microsoft browser released to date"

    Is that why I have half a dozen viruses on my computer after using IE7?  Oh, I should mention I only use Windows for playing games and downloading patches for said games and yet, somehow, I get a bunch of viruses.  With an antivirus solution, no less.  CONGRATULATIONS!

    I go to great lengths, enormous lengths in fact, to get everyone I know, meet, or see passing on the street to switch browsers if they’re using IE, period.  IE5 was good in its time, IE6 was good before it took nearly a decade to update, and IE7 is a paltry improvement.

    You’ve failed.  Please, for the sake of the Web, stop.

  298. defproc says:

    There’s a theory that’s been going around for years that IE’s non-standard rendering is (or initally was) an attempt to have web developers code specifically *for* IE – the most commonly used browser – and thus rendering other (standards-compliant) browsers superficially inferior. Sound like a conspiracy theory? Maybe. Sound like an everyday business strategy one would expect from a huge worldwide company? Definitely.

  299. Sean says:

    When I do an estimate for a web development job I generally factor in the time I’m going to spend hacking the site to get it to work in IE 6 and 7.  I don’t think it’s quite time to celebrate yet.

  300. Devil and the Deep Dark Ocean says:

    Ya know, I had a recent thought looking over these numbers. What’s the number of computers in the world? I last heard that we’d reached 1 computer online for every person in the world, though not ever person had a computer. So we take the world population at about 6 billion (closer to 6.6 billion by now I think) divided by this fluffed up user number (since I can guarantee that just because IE7 is on a comp doesn’t mean it’s being used) and you still only get 20% of the world using IE7.

    I imagine that once the true numbers are used and one discounts the number of web devs who only use it for testing that percent drops down to the 5-15% range.

    I personally foresee that if MS doesn’t seriously fix it’s junk very soon that it will become obsolete and be left by the wayside. I don’t even care what comes up to replace it so long as it’s better than MS and IE which is a requirement basically impossible not to meet.

  301. Rimmer says:

    Give up your rendering engine guys. It sucks a lot. Get Gecko instead.

  302. Joey Jones says:

    In the amount of time it took you to write your stupid blog post, you could have identified one of the many errors in CSS rendering that plagues IE7.

  303. I’ve gotten to the point in my career where I’ve made the decision to abandon IE altogether. I now only write web apps to work in FireFox and if people using IE have problems with the site, we tell them to switch.

    For too long I’ve been promised by Microsoft that IE would be fixed and updated and for too long I have believed them. Don’t pat yourself on the back guys, you really are doing a horrible job and it shows. Many more developers I talk to are doing and saying the same thing… IE need to go away.

    I firmly believe that Microsoft and IE have maybe one last chance to win the support and praise of the development community. IE8 better be standards compliant to the tee or don’t even bother releasing it.

    Sorry to say guys, but the progress you’re praise is a falsehood. I would take the time read all the comments for this blog post and let them really set in. There are a number of pissed off people here and they expect, no demand, that you live up to your promises to them.

  304. jalf says:

    @ defproc

    grin!

    I heard a rumor that MS were looking to purchase Opera outright about 2 years ago. With thier excellent work in the Phone Browser space, and their excellent cross platform work (the Wii and DS versions of Opera rock), any company willing to embrace the web would be kicking themselves right now.

    I just dont see any evidence that MS wants anything to do with the web. Seriously. I would love to be enlightened though. Is there anything out there that proves MS commitment to the web?

  305. Requiem of your mom says:

    @ jalf

    MS is trying to destroy the web. By destroying one of the most used communication way on earth, and an easy one for open source programmers, they will achieve their plans for world domination. But it’s currently failing, and at high speed.

    Example: Japan recently spent 13 billions, paid to a company of engineers to have all Windows OSes kicked out of every company in japan and replaced with one of the linux OS the company will be most fitted with (most engineers are experienced Linux techs, so they know what the company will need).

  306. Adam> says:

    Honestly (no sarcasm), isn’t IE a more secure browser than Firefox? (Oh boy, can’t wait for the responses to this post)

    Just go to Internet Options/Security tab in IE and click Custom and tell me Firefox or any other browser for that matter has that level of security customization, and I’ll switch to that browser today. For example, in IE I can define IFrame behavior on a per site basis. I don’t see how you would do that in Firefox. I go to Security Tab in Firefox and all I see is add-on settings. As far as I know, IFrames is how websites do cookie stuffing. Since I don’t see how I would set IFrame behavior in Firefox, doesn’t that mean that Firefox is vulnerable to cookie stuffing?

  307. Tuan says:

    My IE6 tester VM expires tomorrow.

    Please give us another extension – otherwise I won’t be able to test for 78% of my customers.

  308. Joe Doe says:

    @Adam

    the iframe isnt a security issue, because you arent allowed to do anything within an iframe from another domain (so you cannot read cookies from another frame if they arent from the same domain)

    and actually you didnt even get the point. the problem with IE is not its security or insecurity. it’s the f***ing BAD rendering engine that makes IE the WORST browser you can choose.

  309. M-RES says:

    Funnily enough, whenever I check out usage stats for sites I’ve developed (in the UK), the most popular browser 9 times out of 10 is Firefox, with IE coming second or even a distant third place behind Firefox and Safari. If I include all the various flavours of Mozilla-based and WebKit-based browsers in the figures I’d say that IE’s users are very much in the minority for visitors to sites I administer.

    I don’t know whether that says something about the age-group demographics (certain age-groups are more prevalent on some sites) predilection to use a particular browser or not, but I’d guess that younger people are more likely to be using a browser they’ve chosen to download, such as Firefox, Opera, or Safari etc than the stock bundled browser (IE in this case). Of the people who DO use the IE that came bundled with their Windows install, they’re probably the ones most likely to be downloading IE7 (if they update at all), and not the people who’ve switched to one of the alternatives.

    From a development point of view, I’d prefer it if IE just shrivelled up and die quietly in a corner – it’d mean my standards-compliant websites would work out of the box. I’m so fed up with having to develop hack-arounds for IE’s nonsensical breaking of conventions that I’ve started to abandon the practice in favour of letting it degrade disgracefully, and even include notes for those users to go and download a decent browser to get the best experience from the web the way it should look. I know I’m not alone in this view….

    So come on, either shape up or ship out, but don’t rely on those who build the front-end (or the back-end) of the web to support this mess indefinitely!

  310. psyphen says:

    And hopefully the last year of Internet Explorer.

  311. liam_668 says:

    Within the last few days I had to switch a client of mine to Firefox, since IE7 (the automatically updated version) kept her from getting to her ISP’s home page and her email. Since she does business from home, this is a large issue. Firefox has shown no similar problems, and is much faster. If Microsoft were actually interested in its customers, rather than its ability to spy on them, they might do some work with web standards and adopt UTF-16, rather than trying to force the rest of the world to go back to web development with tables and trying to keep its document metadata space for corporate secret use. While wating for Microsoft to admit it belongs to the world, rather than the reverse, people might want to try the Maxthon browser, which uses the IE engine to much better effect. And, btw, Maxthon (being Chinese) has something on the order of 750 million users, making it much more popular than Internet Explorer. It would be nice if Microsoft evangelizers did the research and count what’s there, rather than what they want to tell you is there. I use Maxthon in office environments when I’d otherwise be stuck using IE, and it has caused no problems with the IT folks anywhere I’ve used it.

  312. Tony,

    You going to step up and respond to some of these comments?

  313. liam_668 says:

    Oops; sorry for the double post. I had a hiccup with Opera and my ISP. Nothing’s perfect.

  314. Adam G says:

    a short list of head scratching, time wasting, stupid, painful, BUGS that IE7 STILL HAS. I’ve personally wasted *days* tracking some of these down:

    BUTTON tag. oh my god. it’s only been a standard for 10+ years.

    TD/TR with innerHTML. thank you Microsoft. lovely. and the error message is *so* helpful

    floating elements – why can’t I find their position? because IE returns stupid values from the DOM. and if I poke another element into the float using DOM, great.. the whole layout is now screwed.

    getAttribute/setAttribute don’t just get/set *DOM* attributes, they read/write Javascript values on the DOM nodes too – case insensitive! this one was particularly entertaining to debug – I especially enjoyed the way IE would hang the machine at 100% CPU before crashing.

    ‘this’ on certain events. why does IE make me jump through hoops to find the *element the event fired on*? you’d think it might be important occasionally.

    CSS. everyone knows that it’s a big crapshoot with IE – will it work or not? will I need javascript hacks for IE? probably. so broken I won’t even list things.

    Canvas. would be nice. please? *every* other browser has it.

    DEBUGGER. PLEASE. FIREBUG? ANYTHING? developing on IE is SO painful it’s not funny. in fact, it’s like pulling teeth. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE produce a debugger that *at least* lets me set breakpoints, step through the code, and show the variables and DOM (IE Toolbar covers the DOM bit fine.. well done). that way I can at least try to figure out why IE is doing something stupid…

    to sum up.. you certainly hurt the development market with IE7. Silverlight? no chance. not if it’s *anything* like IE. tried Flex, seems pretty nice. I’d rather use DHTML though quite honestly.

  315. am says:

    Why can’t you actually listen to what your customer base (forced and voluntary both) is telling you?  Fix the CSS problems so we can all get on with our lives.

    For a company that wants to make users lives easier, you really have a bad way of showing it.  Aren’t web developers users too?  Our life didn’t get easier, it got harder.  How about adhering to the CSS standards?  They’re out there for a reason.  How about giving us 40% of our life back?  We determined that’s how much of our time is spent finding, adding, tweakig IE hacks to make web pages display properly.  We’ve really had enough of "if IE6 do this, if IE7 do this, if anything else do this" CSS logic.  

    I’m glad we only need to use IE to check page rendering, and not as our full-time browser.

  316. HC says:

    Thanks, now I ned to maintain another branch of IE code in my front end. Maybe you can come up with IE8, and code name, "standards, naah, just messing with you".

    I can’t tell you how many problems IE 6 & 7 cause us on a day to day basis.

  317. Noah says:

    Time to test a new design, wow it looks fantastic in Firefox, spotless in Safari, outstanding in Opera… on last test… oh wait it looks like crap in IE, well now I guess it’s time to apply conditional comments and work around it… oh well it’s not like my time isn’t work anything.

    And what the hell is with the interface? Microsoft spends decades developing specific paradigms for the locations of things in applications, menus on top etc etc and then you just go and change them to be cool? I know so many people who haven’t upgraded to IE7 even though it is better than IE6 (but that’s like being better than cancer) because they can’t figure out the interface… these are normal sane adults.

    I hope you all develop some personal integrity and quit your jobs and go work at a bottle depot, you have failed.

  318. micah says:

    The first year of IE7?

    For us, it’s been a year of searching to a find new base of hacks, fixes, and conditional styles to combat yet another non-standards compliant product.

    It would take book’s worth of comments to list all the issues IE6 and now IE7 have caused us in our sites and products.

  319. Alex Newman says:

    Hurray, thanks Firefox fanboys. I wish the stupidity filter was complete so it would be easier to read constructive comments.

    I used to say this about Apple, but now it’s true for FOSS. It’s not just software, it’s a personality disorder. I don’t see any Safari or Opera users attacking this blog like vultures- but firefox people… they’re on some sort of mission.

    Are you really satisfied with your product? I use Opera and I enjoy how effortlessly stable and fast it is compared with Firefox- so let me explain to you how professionals work–

    I can’t believe everyone is all up in arms about how IE doesn’t release as many versions as Firefox– do you understand how important product stability is? Major version changes are a big deal for IT infrastructures.

    When Firefox releases a "beta" it’s sort of like Opera or Apple releasing an Alpha- because we’re all testers in the open source world.

    In my experience as a user, IE7 is generally more stable than Firefox- easier on the system, as well- but it’s occasionally annoying to see the forced incompatibility zealots linking  you to firefox. It’s a corporate product, too, you know- it’s just pushed by Sun, Netscape, and Google instead.

    The browser is part of the platform- just as firefox is *sort of* part of the commercial linux platform, IE needs to be bundled with Windows for obvious reasons. It’s a decent product, and it’s not going away.

  320. Micah says:

    For us, it’s been a year of searching to a find new base of hacks, fixes, and conditional styles to combat yet another non-standards compliant product.

    It would take book’s worth of comments to list all the problems IE6 and now IE7 have caused us in our sites and products.

  321. Chris says:

    You want to make us believe that you are reporting some kind of progress here, and yet..

    I made this comment in response to a Chris Wilson post and I’ll make it again. David Hyatt (webkit) almost single handedly fixed Safari to pass ACID 2 in a matter of months. This required fixing quite a few CSS rendering bugs.

    How is it that Mr. Hyatt can do this in less than a year and yet your "team" can barely manange to "fix" your CSS1 implementation let along provide any support for CSS3 (which is being implemented heavily in nightly builds of Firefox and webkit and probably Opera) in the time between IE6 and IE7.

    Chris Wilson’s and your buddy Douglas Crokford’s comments on HTML 5 and ECMA 4 put your commitment to standards and to developers in crystal clear focus. Microsoft has the means to hire the best programmers in the world. The lack of progress and state of code in IE cannot be a lack of good talent.

    Keep telling yourself that those numbers actually mean something, and hopefully developers and end users will some day not have to deal with IE any longer. I never bought the idea that Microsoft cared more about developers, this post hasn’t changed that in the least.

  322. Anon says:

    You know how everyone back in high school knew the greasy kid with acne and no social skills but people still paid him to do their term papers?

    Yeah just because people used him didn’t make him popular.

    That kid went on to make a browser

  323. Releasing IE7 doesn’t undo the sins created by any previous version, IE6 is still out there and people still use it. i have to deal with its non standard issues on a daily basis.

    Client: lets have a floating window with a drop shadow and have it work in every browser.

    me: sure, we can make it work in every browser except everything older than IE7.

    IE7 is still a pile, and until every issue is corrected or at least matches issues with other browsers and we don’t need to make exceptions to make IE work then i may consider trying IE.

  324. In the depths says:

    @ Adam>

    Honestly, no IE isn’t more secure because of it’s site-by-site options. It NEEDS that ONLY because of the vast amount of vulnerabilities in it already. Out of the box, even with an intelligent person setting up IE to be secure, it’s still more vulnerable than any other modern browser is. If you start to count add-ons, most of the IT security people use firefox and no-script for safe browsing, and these are the people who take apart virii and online exploits to see how they work and how to protect people. If you can’t trust them you might as well take off your anti-virus and anti-adware programs and browse the net with IE fully open, after all if you don’t trust them why do anything they recommend or do themselves?

    You have posted twice now that I’ve seen about IE’s separate zones as making it so much more secure that other browsers, but you’re wrong. The fact is IE needs that to even show up on the same scale as other browsers, and even then it’s at the bottom. The major security firms not directly paid by MS say to use firefox with no-script for any web browsing, and most of them include a note to never use IE on the web.

    I suppose it’s also worth commenting that the fully pro-MS/IE comments here are worse than the FF fanbois regarding facts, grammar, spelling, and well everything related to making a coherent point. Also to preempt someone like Alex Newman, I use everything but IE for actual web surfing, I only attack right now because I am sick and tired of developing for everything else and then developing for IE7, and then fixing that up for IE6, since pixel perfect CSS design is what the higher-ups are looking for (they understand that they won’t get it and that it’s because of IE now, but they still want it as close as possible). This has more than doubled the time one of my recent projects took and generally adds 50-60% onto the amount of time a site takes to make in my more complex layouts. Heck I freely admit that Opera is the best browser for standards compliance, Firefox does best in security, safari is great on macs. IE is just crap and it needs to be cleaned up. This is why I’m a "vulture" here.

  325. Steve says:

    I admit I’m as equally unhappy with IE7 as most of the others here — it’s buggy and doesn’t support standards properly.  We write for five browsers (IE6, IE7, Firefox, Safari, & Opera), and the only one which takes more of our debugging time than IE7 is IE6.  Firefox, Safari and Opera combined take less than half the time we’re forced to waste fixing either IE7 or IE6 issues.

    I wouldn’t be so frustrated if IE7 had debugging tools that were even a quarter as good as Firebug is on Firefox, but IE7’s debugging tools are crap (and that’s putting it mildly…).  The *single* most important thing that MS could do to make IE developers more happy with the browser would be to provide better debugging tools, and I strongly suggest they look at Firebug for guidelines on what’s needed.  They made a half-hearted start on something like this, but it needs to become a serious priority on their end.

    As for IE8 — I, for one, don’t want IE8 anytime soon.  It’s bad enough trying to support *two* buggy MS browsers, I don’t want to add a third one until IE6 usage drops low enough that we can stop supporting it.

  326. Bryan says:

    <!– fix css/html rendering browser bugs on IE –>

    <!–[if IE]>

      <!– fix IE6 specific bugs –>

      <![if IE 6]>

         painful

      <![endif]–>

      <!– fix IE7 specific bugs –>

      <![if IE 7]>

         less painful

      <![endif]–>

      <!– fix IE8 specific bugs –>

      <![if IE 8]>

         still less painful, but still a PAIN!

      <![endif]–>

    <![endif]–>

  327. gozargozarian says:

    IE is horrible when it comes to dynamic content.  I will write javascript that creates dynamic elements for a website that works perfectly in EVERY browser except IE.  When I go back to fix it following standards perfectly I still find out that it doesn’t work because of some silly bug.  Such as CSS styles not dynamically being applied to new elements or sometimes new elements will not register their id tags for finding later with other javascript code.  It’s for stupid reasons and because I have javascript that is on specific elements.  But, it doesn’t effect any other browser (and I mean ANY other browser, even lesser used ones).  I am sick of wasting payroll trying to patch your browser’s bugs.  I’ve finally started detecting IE and posting a notice when someone logs in to use another browser for security and usability because IE is horrible.  I’ll even link bug articles and other people’s trouble with IE.  I usually just tell them to use ANY browser other than IE rather than be specific.

  328. Adam> says:

    @ In the depths

    Firstly, I will concede that IE has rendering issues, since I’ve had problems in that area myself. But it hasn’t been an issue in daily browsing that I have had to switch.

    In IE, if I put a site into a Restricted Zone and turn off everything (scritps/ActiveX, etc), theoretically, it should be just as secure as Firefox, no? Most of the IE security issues arise from ActiveX. I’m not a Firefox expert since I don’t use it, but as far as I can tell, Firefox does not run ActiveX, hence more secure but breaks a few sites in the process.

    Maybe Firefox is more secure. All I know is I go to http://www.techbargains.com (in my restricted zone) in IE and don’t have to worry about 20 different IFrames loading with 20 cookies stuffed into my system. Try the same thing in Firefox and look in the status bar as it loads every IFrame, and afterwords, check for all the cookies that Firefox has just accepted. Now you can add the site to your cookies exception list in Firefox. But you have to type/copy/paste it in, no option just to click the Add the current site button like you do in IE zones. Even if you did, you have to keep a mental list of which sites you added? No way to tell if the current site is in your exception list, unlike IE which shows which zone the current website is in.

    I’m not a web developer. I see that a lot of developers have had their IE problems. But from the point of a web user, I don’t see any advantage to Firefox. I can make IE just as secure as Firefox on certain websites, and make IE more functional than Firefox on other sites. And I’m not a MS fanboy either. If MS doesn’t get it’s act together with Vista, and Vista becomes a forced upgrade (ie for running IE8 for example), I’ll be joining the Firefox/Linux camp shortly.

  329. Demonoid Phenomenon says:

    Just an idea gozargozarian, but it might help your end users if you suggest one or two browsers (like FF and Opera) since many end users are simply so clueless. It’s also worth noting that IE doesn’t have JavaScript, it has JScript, Microsoft’s bastardized version that does completely random things differently and has no real documentation on what MS changed or why it was changed. All that is holy knows it can’t be for it to work better since most of the changes involve not having some part of the language, or having it but having it not do anything useful.

  330. Jeff Hankens says:

    As an occasional web designer, the obstacles that IE throws up for me are formidable.  I have neither the time nor the patience to work around its peculiar implementation of most open web standards.  By comparison, most other browsers make standards compliance look easy.  It should be a point of pride for Microsoft to make its most ubiquitous product do the same.

  331. Into the depths says:

    Maybe out of the box FF can have a bunch of cookies thrown at it, but you can set options for iFrames and cookies to block this, and if you get no-script there basically is no more secure way to browse the web without personally learning more about security than the major security firms and writing your own personalized protections.

    However having cookies thrown at you is nothing compared to the fact that IE is known in the hacker/scriptkiddie networks as being vulnerable no matter what the end user does, and it’s a big difference between getting a few unwanted cookies in FF and having your computer turned into a zombie as part of a botnet. There have been multiple system take over exploits in IE for every one exploit in FF that makes an unwanted pop-up still appear.

    Firefox had its longest major exploit only take 9 days to fix last I heard, MS let IE users go exposed on the same level for something like 286 days on one major vulnerability. Which makes you feel safer, 9 days where full discloser let you know you were at risk, or 286 days where it was walled up and only hackers and MS employees knew you were wide open to attack?

  332. fea says:

    I’m a small budget, small audience web app developer and I must say that writing code that works on all IE6, IE7 and FF is not commercially feasible. I trust in FF moreso than MSFT’s products and must often educate and require that my clients run my apps with FF.

    I find it funny that MSFT supporters barely have anything to say except some absurd "way to go", "congratulations" or "IE rocks!". They offer no reasoning why they support MSFT. Yet look at how many frustrated users take the time to explain their pain every chance they get. MSFT is lucky that people still care enough to communicate their frustrations, soon they won’t .

  333. jmurphy says:

    I have to tell you, I’m a full time web designer/developer and IE in all it’s different versions is the bane of my existence. I have a full time gig as a designer/developer in higher education and IE has wasted untold amounts of taxpayer dollars in extended development time.

    In summary, IE is an ugly stain on the Internet, and that is not being melodramatic. It’s a fact.

  334. emil says:

    fewer vulnerabilities than IE6? Well I guess it’s pretty hard to make a browser that sucks more than IE6

  335. Lelouch says:

    I don’t think MS even bothers reading the comments anymore… it’s quite the shame. So effectively, this is a waste of time but I’m bored so :)

  336. Eeve says:

    Watch out… I used to develop my web apps for IE and then tweak them to work in ‘other’ browsers. Now I write them for FireFox and hack them to work in IE.

    Say it with me now…  S.T.A.N.D.A.R.D.S.

  337. Just last week Microsoft’s Tony Chor was roundly chastised in the comments to his rather self congratulatory posting on the IE Team Blog about the first anniversary of Internet Explorer 7. So yesterday at a Mix n’ Mash event for bloggers, Molly Ho…

  338. sam says:

    Every last one of you is a hitler-loving nazi!

    (Godwin’s law MUST BE PROVED!!!!)

  339. Pooberry says:

    "Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago, before the release of IE7. This is typically a sign that the product is more stable and has fewer issues than the previous release."

    Maybe they switched to Firefox.

  340. Kayla Rose says:

    Byron:

    "<!– fix css/html rendering browser bugs on IE –>

    <!–[if IE]>

     <!– fix IE6 specific bugs –>

     <![if IE 6]>

        painful

     <![endif]–>

     <!– fix IE7 specific bugs –>

     <![if IE 7]>

        less painful

     <![endif]–>

     <!– fix IE8 specific bugs –>

     <![if IE 8]>

        still less painful, but still a PAIN!

     <![endif]–>

    <![endif]–>"

    What he said.

    The answer is simple: SUPPORT STANDARDS!!!!!!

  341. I’ve completely given up on testing my websites against IE. I use IE’s engine to update Windows, and to visit Microsoft.com. And even those is done inside of Firefox with a plugin.

    I don’t care if I’m cutting compatibility with a majority of users. It isn’t worth it. I’ll take the smaller market since it comes with so much less pain.

  342. iesucks says:

    I used to do web development as a side business.  This was before IE7, I admit it, but IE is the reason I stopped doing web development.  I know it’s been stated about 100 times already, but it’s damn near impossible to develop for the craptastic browser.  There are just far too many bugs in it.  

    Nowadays, whenever I do any sort of web coding, I don’t even bother to try and make things work right in IE, I just code to standards.  Screw the people who are too stupid to download a REAL browser.  The problem is, though I have this luxury, paid web developers do not.

    Do the world a favor M$, drop the steaming pile of crap you call a web browser and simply ship your OS with Firefox.

  343. Chance says:

    I have lost so many hours of my life trying to figure out how to work around some of the horrible bugs in IE. I want my time back!

  344. Anonamoose says:

    Why did Microsoft decide to ‘update’ only some people to IE7 and not all? I am in the unfortunate situation now that a vast number still use IE6 and I cannot test it as I have been forced to upgrade to IE7.

    Seriously either force EVERYONE to upgrade at once (which for security reasons is advisable) or tell people about the alternatives, what we now have is a big smelly pile of poo.

  345. dmx says:

    Can someone tell me how to get a debugger up in IE7. Its driving me nuts! (No, I’m not going to buy vis studio)

  346. Nick Taylor says:

    I was talking to some people the other day… and came up with a new feature for Silverlight… which I think would save the web-dev industry hundreds of millions of dollars every year, and would certainly make web-design a pleasant way of making a living.

    How about introducing a feature that deletes IE from every PC on the planet?… installing something like Firefox or Opera in its place?

    The world would thank you.

  347. Reid says:

    @psyphen:

    http://halls.lug-nut.com/jayce/blogimages/firefox-open-standards.jpg

    That is one of the most beautiful things I’ve seen in a while.

    But, do you think it’ll melt the ice that is where the hearts of the devs/management should be?

  348. Erwin Heiser says:

    Congratulations! Now can you please pull the plug on IE6 completely?

    Please?

  349. Kordor says:

    Hey IE Team,

    As you can see we are all very frustrated, because of _your_ work.

    Aren’t you going to respond us in any way?

  350. Chris says:

    Thanks for the headaches.

    Congratulations on the pseudo-count of users on IE7.

  351. iongion says:

    Why don’t you all just quit developing a browser.

    Buy Opera or adopt firefox and build plugins for it (for .net, for silverlight, for any other activex/extension)

  352. Jus says:

    I would honestly not miss Internet Explorer if it dissapeared from the web completely. As a freelance web developer and intranet application developer, IE is honestly a thorn in my side… standards compliance and debugging being the big issues…

    I would support a "Any browser BUT Internet Explorer" campaign, if it means that it will just go away…

    Not a very constructive comment I know, but IE has caused so many hassles, that I felt I just needed to cast a vote :)

    Think the IE team will actually respond to this thread?

  353. Reid says:

    @psyphen:

    I just showed my wife that pic.  She asked if it came in t-shirt form.  Please say yes…

    @Jus:

    God no.  That’d show some integrity.

  354. me too says:

    @psyphen and @Ried

    Yes indeed! I would love that on a T-Shirt, what better way to spread the word!

  355. P.J.H. Maka says:

    where has your head been all these years?

    in your a….?

  356. omz says:

    came here cross-navigating sites ( a-la deriva )

    sorry, what is Internet Explorer? it is like Firefox?

    Anyway.. congratulations for your "1st year"

    goodbye

          omz

  357. sas171 says:

    Internet Explorer is a really cool tool. It is preinstalled on Windows so you can go to mozilla.com and download a real browser.

    Seriously guys, I spent 5 hours of my work today just fixing my mark up for IE. Please speak with Molly Holzschlag, do whatever you want, but make IE8 standards compliant and not so buggy.

  358. mark says:

    So what i’d like to know is why everytime I want to map a network drive I need to go into IE7 and add that drive to my trusted sites before I have proper permissions in that drive.  I don’t remember this being the case with IE6.  This means I have to have IE7 on my computer, does it not?  Is there another way to deal with this?  Why do they have anything to do with eachother?  

  359. Fred says:

    Here is what I just read:

    "Boy, we sure do love having a monopoly. When all your OS users are forced to install your browser, and when not upgrading their browser actually takes more steps than upgrading, adoption rate is great! Sure, even with all the stumbling blocks we throw at our OS customers who want stay on IE6, or want to use a different browser, our Monopoly Browser is still just #2. But we’ll force ’em over by next year, you’ll see. Maybe the phishers will help force them over for us. Again, monopolies are fun. My favorite board(room) game!"

  360. psyphen says:

    @Reid and @me too

    Apparently you can buy the t-shirt from the Mozilla Store:

    http://blog.mozilla.com/store/2007/07/24/mozilla-developer-t-shirt/

    Disclaimer: I did not design the t-shirt. I just remembered someone making a wallpaper out of the illustration. I believe it was designed by Sean Martell

    And back on topic…

    Tony Chor,

    Congratulations, but I wouldn’t be so proud in acknowledging the first year of IE7 when, in reality, it was forced onto users through Windows Update and continues to be an overrated, poorly engineered, and disgustingly marketed product which serves no benefit to users who have already discovered far better, faster, compliant, and more reliable alternatives.

    As of January 31st, 2006, Microsoft understood the failure of Internet Explorer 5 for Mac and subsequently ceased development, support, and downloads. It is now time to accept the failure of Internet Explorer for Windows and retire it.

    I strongly believe IE7 is evidence that marketing has interfered with the engineering and development of your team’s browser. The interface, especially, demonstrates the childish and patronizing attitude of Microsoft towards its customers while the implementation clearly shows a lack of care for Web developers who have lost months of money and time writing filthy hacks simply to conform to this sluggish, buggy, ugly, and pathetic excuse for a Web browser.

    Gavin Kendall

    C#.NET Software Developer

  361. … but having read the follow up replies to this , I thought I would just say thanks. Not to Microsoft

  362. Mitch 74 says:

    …should be: ‘although it’s being forced on our customers, our brand new Internet Explorer 7, while out for more than a year now, hasn’t prevented other browsers like Mozilla Firefox from gaining an extra 5% (and up to 20% in some countries) of our market share’.

    Happy birthday!

  363. dan says:

    I really hate developing for IE.  Why the f*** don’t you respect the standards? I see that only the normal computer users say something good about IE, the rest ( professional developers ) say that it’s a shitty browser. BECAUSE IT IS!

  364. Visit my webpage and then examine bugs  #41 and #92. These rather serious, quite severe and incapacitating bugs were both reported before and, still today, they have not been fixed. They would have all been fixed by now if such bugs had been happening in Mozilla (Firefox), WebKit (Safari, Konqueror) or Opera. !

  365. Disgruntled says:

    I dislike IE7, and have set it NOT to be shown for Windows Update on ALL of my XP based systems. Seriously, you will never beat Firefox or it’s flexible addons.

  366. JadedVisitor says:

    I work for a large corporation and developing and maintaining our e-commerce site is a nightmare because of Microsoft. Relying on of their monopolistic practices, Microsoft manages to push their inferior browser on the majority of home and corporate users who are either too clueless to know better or are denied a choice of browsers. As a result IE continues to be the dominant browser, which means we have to develop primarily for IE.

    The result is that our site looks terrible on Firefox, Safari, and virtually every other (superior and more standards-compliant) browser on the market. We are faced with the choice of either spending double the resources to develop and test enhancements, or alienating the large minority of users who are savvy enough to use a competent browser.

    Thanks Microsoft.

  367. Onyro says:

    Whenever IE 6/7 crashed on me (hopefully not freezing the whole system), I started to wonder if the crash was caused just by IE or by Windows XP or the even more buggy Vista. Now I wonder no more, as I have switched to Safari and Camino/Firefox for good. On a Mac. Nice to have known you, Microsoft, and happy anniversary to your slightly improved IE. It was fun to have known you while your browser was more innovative than the competition (Netscape at this time). Now it’s not anymore, and you have tons of work to do to even keep sight.

  368. John says:

    I just tried to pull up this page on IE7 on Vista and it crashed the first time. What does that say about your little "product"?

  369. Joseph says:

    A year later and it still sucks.

  370. Philippe says:

    Awfull ! You don’t deserve be the #1 !

  371. Sherlock Holmes says:

    Only average Joe, who doesn’t even know what HTML is, might be convinced that IE is a decent program. The only positive comments in the above are in fact from this part of the population.

    Everyone with the least bit of experience with CSS, Javascript, standards in general, knows that IE is the most evil of all browsers. But then again, this is in fact compliant with just about any software that microsoft develops…

    Writing to you from my linux computer with a firefox browser…

  372. Donny V. says:

    You guys on the IE team most be loving the posts. 😉

    I think IE7 is a lot better than IE6. Many improvements we’re made like needed tab features and better CSS standardization. But I think more needs to be done. I think more importantly than CSS standardization is the need for better PERFORMANCE. When I’m developing ASP.NET sites with the AJAX Toolkit and open the sites in both IE and Firefox and find that Firefox opens a full 1 sec. sometimes 2 sec. faster. That worries me. This is your technology I’m building my sites with and it opens faster in a competitors product…..WTF!

    Plus I hear the the new Firefox 2.0 is going to be faster which is not good news for IE.

    You guys need to up the performance and add better debug tools.

  373. Firefox User says:

    IE? i’m using it only because of windows update.

    except that, i’m using FF as my default browser.

  374. Mike says:

    "Finally, we’ve seen a decrease of 10-20% in the support call volume for IE compared with a year ago, before the release of IE7. This is typically a sign that the product is more stable and has fewer issues than the previous release."

    10-20% ha? that’s about the % of people who moved from IE to firefox !

  375. Vipin says:

    Random crashes and browser shoutdowns happen with IE7 almost everyday(frustating). IE7 may be more secure, but IE6 was much stable.

  376. Cynicalgeek says:

    The fact that it took a year for you to fix the "Header information won’t print when printing from Outlook 2003" really angered the legal industry.

    Thank you for fixing it but WOW! it took a very long time.

    So, now I can begin implementing IE7, finally.

  377. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Vipin: IE7 is more stable than IE6.  If you are encountering frequent crashes, chances are good that you have a buggy addon.  See http://www.enhanceie.com/ie/troubleshoot.asp for more info.

  378. Reid says:

    @EricLaw:

    You realize that you’ve been criticised for only telling people about buggy addons, right?  So, why would you not only post just that in your last post, but it is pretty much the only content you’ve contributed to this entire conversation ignoring EVERY OTHER ISSUE!

    If you have nothing constructive to add, go to your manager and get permission to add something constructive.  Otherwise, work on giving IE the ability to handle a buggy addon.  Because, right now, you’re only adding to a mountain of evidence that you people are completely useless.

  379. David L. says:

    Microsoft keeps over-promising and under-delivering and this applies to IE as well. I recall a promise to no longer wait 6 years between releases and to have a new IE within 12 months. Ok, so now 12 months later the only thing we are getting is that the next version will be called IE 8.

    For me IE is no longer relevant, the lack for support for web standards, lack of transparency and the huge disappointment with Windows Vista made me go back to XP & Firefox on one PC, and buy a new Apple laptop with mac OS 10.5 (looooove it!)

  380. Disgruntled says:

    Also, all the buttons are in the wrong place. At least fix this sloppy mess. :( Buttons aren’t supposed to be scattered all over creation. It took me several minutes to find my stop, reload and home buttons..

  381. >Whine, whine, whine. All I have to do to remember that most web-devs are still in

    >preschool is to visit this blog and read the negative comments.

    I apologize for the above comment, which I posted a few weeks ago. It was immature and in poor taste. I applaud all the web-devs out there who spend hours making sites work with IE as well as Firefox and Opera.

  382. regan says:

    i’m using vista and ie7 and unfortunately this combination has forced me to install and use firefox as my default browser.  I can’t remember the last time i actually shut IE down without having to close the task via task manager.  I was hoping for some relied in the SP1 fo Vista, but after installing the RC SP1 I have seen no difference whatsoever.  Its a real shame as I actually quite like IE7 (when it works)

  383. John Perkins says:

    For XML/XSLT/CSS browser based pages both Safari 3 and IE 6+ are superior to Opera 9+ or Firefox 2+. Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 are improving their support for browser based XSLT but they still have a long way to go to catch up with the other 2 major vendors in this regard.

    In my opinion there are no 21st century browsers until browsers supports XSLT 2.0.

    For merely browsing the web, Safari 3 for Windows seems to have the other three beat if you take in consider hangs, security, standards compliance, and support for XSLT.

    Webkit seems to be a very good rendering engine being much better than the other 3.

    Safari’s lack of support for full screen mode is a major drawback for me. If it had full screen mode it would be my default browser.

    Opera has the best full screen mode but the worst XSLT support.

    Firefox is nice for development but I do not like it much for personal browsering. The browser is too busy for my taste. Using Firefox always seems like work to me.

    IE 7 is much better than IE 6.

    All 4 major browsers are very good tools especially considering the cost but all need to be better at supporting "Web 2.0".

    Here is hoping we see IE 8, Firefox 3 (maybe 4), Opera 9.5 and 10, and a upgraded Safari in 2008. Hopefully we will see a move to XSLT 2.0 on the browser before the end of this decade.

    It is imperative we become declarative.

  384. Simon says:

    @Wraith Daquell:

    Apology accepted, don’t feel guilty.  This blog brings out strong feelings in many, as it is the only open vector of communication with the IE Dev Team, and the Dev community.

    Some of the posts here are "immature" when they just blurt out "Obey Web Standards!" "CSS!" etc. however a lot of those are the quick frustrated responses to the bigger problem, which is:

    The Dev Community is excited to see changes/fixes in IE, and waits patiently for the changes, but the changes are taking a VERY long time (which is OK), and are not communicated AT ALL with the dev community (which is NOT OK).

    Many of the well written comments/criticisms posted here are just blatantly ignored.  Which puts a very sour taste in the community’s mouth when they think about developing for IE.

    Case in point? There must be a 1,000 comments here about discussing the upcoming browser release (IE8), and reopening public bug tracking.

    ALL COMPLETELY IGNORED… there isn’t even a post from the IE team indicating WHEN a post containing this info will happen, or WHY they are choosing to ignore us.

    It is all very un-professional the way this is  handled by the IE Team.

    Simon

  385. Markus says:

    "It took me several minutes to find my stop, reload and home buttons.."

    Hate to say it, but I think that says a lot more about you than it does about IE.  

  386. Arnaud DIDRY says:

    IE makes me hate what I used to love, Webdesign.

  387. Arnaud Didry says:

    Don’t you see the help brought to you by Microsoft thanks to IE ? Webdesign would be too easy without IE ! Webdesigners wouldn’t even exist !

    Thanks to IE you can make money and have a normal life !

    Everybody should now thank Microsoft

  388. rem says:

    Halleluja:

    "Opera requests the Commission to implement two remedies to Microsoft’s abusive actions. First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop. Second, it asks the European Commission to require Microsoft to follow fundamental and open Web standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities."

    http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

  389. Locke says:

    Bah, I freakin’ LOVE IE.

    Always have, always will. You know why? It works great! I love all the cool stuff it does – and no, I care not one bit that some things aren’t standards compliant.

    You know what I like? Innovation. Features. Bells and whistles. Snazz. I want a browser that does Really Cool Things, things that no other browser knows how to do. And guess what, fanboys, so does the masses.

    Microsoft is innovative, and if they want to close their doors, close their source, and roll out a new browser every 6 years, that’s just fine.

    Do you standards geeks stand outside the cellphone manufacturers factories demanding access to their design studios so you can force them all to support the same power cord socket or operating system? No? Why not?

    Does it make you mad that Mr. Jobs doesn’t consult with you before he rolls out some new appliance / widget with a lowercase "i" in front of it? Do you iBlog about your iFrustrations?

    Do you get angry when you see the latest shoe design from Nike and realize you didn’t have a role in choosing the colors or materials? How about the color choices for the new Scion – HEY those are DIFFERENT from what Buick offers this year?! How unfair! Their stereos are different too!

    Oh no, the car you just bought can’t climb through muddy ravines like that new Range Rover, there should be a STANDARD for all cars so they are equal. It makes it easier for people to make choices, right? Between product A and slighly repackaged same product B.

    You so called standards geeks need to GBTW, and settle down. My browser can beat the snot out of your browser, and look good doing it. Get with the program, and learn to support progress.

    Standards are the lowest common denominator, lock stepping in unison, marching together into bland, mediocre futures. I have yet to see a standards-compliant website that really impressed me, but I have seen thousands of websites through this magical, feature-laden and wonderful browser called Internet Explorer.

    People want features. You know why we don’t all drive the same government supplied car (two tone, grey, sedan) and work in the same giant conglomo.com factory making identical (three shades of pleasing green) widgets?  

    Why do you think it is you have the What’s New page at ThinkGeek bookmarked? Why do you read webappsec, or Slashdot? Why is your lawn being mowed by a solar powered robot, and your favorite show is playing on your phone? Why do you have a Zune AND and iPod?

    YOU LOVE FEATURES TOO!

    Hey, you know what… it’d be the work of a moment to make a website with Microsoft supported code that flat out blows your mind in IE7, but would look like total garbage in any standards compliant browser.

    The ironic thing is, 70-90% (depending on where you get your B.S. statistic from) of the viewers looking at that page would sit back and say "WOW, that’s an AWESOME website".

    You think they’re not rushing out to get firefox because they’re locked in to IE somehow? They’re not rushing out to get firefox because they like innovation, features, and incredible web experiences. They get that from IE, and don’t from any other browser.

  390. Opera has just filed an antitrust case against Microsoft, I generally support this move. Yes Microsoft have put in some effort getting IE7, but its too little too late as far as I see it….