September Chat Transcript Now Available


Hey all,

Here’s the link to the transcript for the September Expert chat: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/06_0914_ez_ie.mspx.

We will be holding another chat in November for those of you who couldn’t make this one. Information about our upcoming chats can be found at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx

Cheers,

Uche Enuha
Program Manager

Comments (25)

  1. Len says:

    From the chat:

    "Chris Wilson [MS] (Expert):

    Q: Will developers receive the final IE7 build before it is released to the public for testing purposes? If so, how long before the final release can we expect the final build?

    A: We will not release the final build prior to final release. The Release Candidate build is getting awfully close."

    I think judging by the number of serious bugs, crashes, omitions and other issues, this statement is wildly inacurate.  The release date may be close, but the browser still needs some serious work to iron out the bugs.

    Heck, you can’t even drag a link! (to a tab, to a text box, to the address bar!)

    Popup dialogs are all distorted now.

    File uploads are broken on several sites.

    PNG image transparencies don’t work everywhere.

    The reload icon is in the wrong spot, as is the menu (should be on top), as is the stop icon.

    None of the toolbars are moveable.

    The tab row is cluttered with icons that no one wants there.

    Locking and unlocking the toolbars causes all kinds of weirdness.

    And tons of sites are broken in IE7.

    IE7 isnt on my Christmas list, thats for sure.

  2. Fduch says:

    You crash your system when opening some few 50 windows

    When you open a page and visit it later its colors have high probablity to be cut to 16bit

    People cannot open/download .swf .swg when placing their path in address bar

    Opened windows aren’t restored after crash

    UNICODE IS NOT SUPPORTED!

    *(try opening .mht file that has non-standart characters in name like "ファック ユ.mht")

    *(try opening file from folder with unicode symbols. They’ll turl into ????? in History )

    Pages fail to save saying "Cannot save webpage" (Example – Experts Chat)

    Flash => 100% CPU

    JavaScript => 100% CPU => Freeze OR Crash

    Parts of comments on Neowin disappear and reappear only after some scrolling. (They lied about having it fixed)

    !!Beware!! When you Save Tab Group to favourites NOT ALL TABS ARE SAVED. (Dumbness or Censure?)

    !!Beware!! When you close IE7 saying Open these tabs at est start NOT ALL TABS ARE OPENED. (Dumbness or Censure?)

    Thumbnails in QuickTabs often does not show actual pages.

  3. Fduch says:

    IE7 makes all files and FOLDERS on CD have webpage icon.

    In IE7 Middle-Click on link =/= "Open in New tab" (In some situations it fains while the one from menu works)

    IE7 deletes address from address history after 30 Days even if you go to that site every day selecting it in drop-down.

    favicons work bad.

    Live ID (.Net Passport) login has option: "Save my e-mail and password". But in IE7 it never works.

    When IE7 chashes it can kill History.

    Perfomance when populating/repopulating Histoty list is awful. They don’t suspend layout during major update!!! LMAO

    When Info Bar bloacked something you can click "More info" in its context menu. But it doesn’t give you More Info. Instead of showing certificate parameters it just opens some crappy help file. Same as "Help" option.

    It takes IE7 1.5-2 seconds to open "Add a Favourite" window on my Athlon 64 3200+ with 2Gb Ram

    The "Find on this page" perfomance decreased dramaticaly.

  4. Fduch says:

    And the worst one.

    *********************************************

    IE7 doesn’t have a option/command/button to LOAD WEBPAGE.

    *********************************************

    Just think of it. A browser that cannot reliably open webpage.

    IE7 can SAVE webpage (newaly always). You click "Save As", "Save" and the FULL page is saved with images (But without Flash or Video!).

    But there is no simipiar option to reliably LOAD WHOLE webpage in IE7.

    How IE7 tries to load webpage:

    1)It loags half of the page and than becomes "Webpage cannot be displayed". (F5)

    2)It loads only some few images, doesn’t load CSS. Looks UGLY. (F5)

    3)It loads CSS and few more images. (F5)

    7)It loads all images but some of them are corrupted/half-loaded. (F% doen’t help. Using Ctrl+F5) => GOTO 1

    This is called crap. It’s not called "Loading webpage"

  5. Aedrin says:

    I think Fduch shows the real problem.

    The majority of people expect more than you can deliver.

    Just a friendly reminder. A bug is not a feature. A bug is something that does not work the way it is meant to work by cause of an error or a logic problem.

  6. Dao says:

    Q: And if you think that IE7 unbearable behavior when opening tabs is "By Design" then please write "Internet Explorer 7 is NOT designed to open more than 50 blank tabs without breaking your system" on the main Internet Explorer 7 page.

    A: Taken under advisement. What do you think would be a reasonable limit on the number of tabs?

    Just as a side note: I do have exactly 50 tabs open right now in Firefox. And it’s not that I’ve just opened them for fun. They add up due to Fx2’s session restore feature. And with the overflow behavior (which is comparable to IE7’s, I think), they are quite accessible.

    If you think you’ll be coming back to certain sites in the near future, it’s easier to keep them opened instead of searching the history or managing lots favorites that you might use only once.

  7. Fduch says:

    When I used Maxthon I set Max # of Tabs to 100 at first, than had to increase it to 200. Worked fine.

    I had 4 rows of tabs and they all were visible at the same time :-)

    Just think of it:

    IE7 can open 1000s of webpages if they are in IFrames. But if they are in tabs, IE7 can open only about 50. (And if Photoshop is opened, the naumber is even smaller). That means that resources IE7 uses to create a tab are much higher than the resources used for actual content! That’s why Maxthon works so stable. Unlike IE7 it has lightweight tabs.

    P.S. As you may have already understood the Q was mine :-)

  8. David says:

    When the complaints are this lame and/or bogus, you know it’s time to ship.

    Ship it!

  9. rc says:

    Adobe discontinues to supprt SVG Viewer Plugin for IE: http://www.adobe.com/svg/eol.html. Microsoft has about a year left to implement native support for SVG in its long-suffering browser

  10. PatriotB says:

    @Aedrin — Actually I’d say that the majority of people will be pleased with IE7.  It’s a small, vocal minority that expect more than the IE team can deliver.

    @rc — Interesting.  It’s too bad other companies don’t have a clear support timeline like MS does.  Telling customers "support is suddenly ending in 4 months" is not very customer-friendly.  Then again, it was a free product.

    @Fduch — Yes, tabs are much more heavyweight in IE7 than in Maxthon.  In IE7, the menubar, status bar, and any third party toolbars you have are created separately for each tab, thus consuming substantial USER/GDI resources.  Maxthon uses the WebBrowser control and requires no other per-tab UI objects.  Hopefully the IE team will improve on this for IE8.

  11. Fduch says:

    @PatriotB – yeah, I hope they will. And I hope they will make tabs really separate, i.e. I can browse in one tab while the other tab is being saved or when browsing Windows Update.

    @David – And what complaint would you call NOT lame? I’m not web developer, so I don’t complain on CSS/standarts.

  12. PatriotB says:

    @Fduch — when you say "tab is being saved or when browsing Windows Update", I think you’re referring to when the tab is showing a modal dialog?

    Unfortunately Windows itself only supports modal dialogs that are modal to the top-most window (i.e. the outer frame).  I don’t think the IE team could implement tab-modal windows without a lot of dangerous hackery — it’ll take a lower-level change in the OS windowing system.  Specifically, a new child-modal (tab-modal) version of the DialogBox API would need to be be created in user32.dll; and all parts of the IE UI (and any ActiveX controls such as Windows Update) would need to be re-plumbed to use this new API.  (You couldn’t just change the current DialogBox function because it wouldn’t know if you mean for it to be top-level-modal or child-modal.)

    Though the "proper" solution would require work from the User32 folks, I wouldn’t be surprised if the IE team tries to implement their own solution.  They came up with their own mechanism to supress dialogs from background threads, so maybe they could come up with a way to make child-modal dialog boxes.  But it would be a huge, fragile hack, IMHO.

  13. Fduch says:

    @PatriotB — I was refering to dialog and random freezes when searching for updates.

    I haven’t thought about modal dialogs. Indeed it’s hard(impossible) to change. In WU case I think it can be archieved by asking wuauclt.exe to open the dialog.

    Does each tab have its onw thread? If it has I’d like the IE frame to be less dependent on tabs.

    Ideally:

    *) When some ActiveX in one tab works bad (100% CPU) the Frame is still responds good.

    *) If ActiveX in some tab crashes with exception, the window appears saying that there was error and the TAB should be closed. With information about the crash source and with checkbox "Reopen the page".

    *) I navigate to webpage and start saving it. then I just minimize that window (like when downloading file) and I can switch to the next tab or resume browsing.

    P.S. The feature I wanted for LONG time: Save page with all media (flash, videos, etc)

  14. Dao says:

    > P.S. The feature I wanted for LONG time: Save page with all media (flash, videos, etc)

    http://www.downthemall.net

    ;-)

  15. asmodai says:

    How about finally fixing the long-standing PNG gamma bug present in your browser?

    Stripping the gAMA header from my PNGs is *not* the way I would want to work and it has not been Adobe’s problem since Photoshop 5.5 fixed their double gAMA header writing came out in, oh, 1999.

  16. Fduch says:

    @Dao – Maxthon has it too

    It was called something like Rapid Save (cause it saved instantly from cache)

    I want it in IE7 … 8 !!!!!

  17. asmodai says:

    Fduch,

    funnily enough when I open a unicode file I get this:

    D:Testcasesfilenamesテスト不得不爱.mht in the location bar. Seems to work for me. First part is katakana, second part is Mandarin Chinese.

  18. hAl says:

    "Adobe discontinues to supprt SVG Viewer Plugin for IE: http://www.adobe.com/svg/eol.html. Microsoft has about a year left to implement native support for SVG in its long-suffering browser"

    I think Microsoft will choose to select XAML as the format to follow up the current VML format. SVG is a format created specically as an answer against the MS VML format. Don’t think MS can be bothered to support it.

    It would be a much better option skip SVG and to support XAML formats as those are supported in the new .NET versions.

    That would be a good choice as MS will be launching webdesigner tools that will support those as well.

  19. Fduch says:

    @asmodai – hmmmmm

    What I see in IE7: I:tempテスト不得不爱.mht

    *************************************

    From: Subject: Valve Survey Summary Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:14:27 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="—-=_NextPart_000_0000_01C6ADEC.F5FBBA00" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ——=_NextPart_000_0000_01C6ADEC.F5FBBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Location: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

    =20 =20 =20

    SURVEY RESULTS

    This survey began on = March=20 3rd, 2006. This page last updated: 7:37pm PST (03:37 GMT), April 04 = 2006=20 Unique Samples: 711302=20

    *********************************

    +No CSS+All layout broken and lots of hexed things.

    What’s in .mht file:

    *********************************

    From: <Saved by Windows Internet Explorer 7>

    Subject: Valve Survey Summary

    Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:14:27 +0400

    MIME-Version: 1.0

    Content-Type: multipart/related;

    type="text/html";

    boundary="—-=_NextPart_000_0000_01C6ADEC.F5FBBA00"

    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    ——=_NextPart_000_0000_01C6ADEC.F5FBBA00

    Content-Type: text/html;

    charset="iso-8859-1"

    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Content-Location: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" =

    "http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd"&gt;

    <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Valve Survey Summary</TITLE>

    <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =

    charset=3DISO-8859-1">

    <META http-equiv=3Dpragma content=3Dno-cache>

    <META content=3DALL name=3DROBOTS>

    <META content=3D"Valve – Survey Summary Data" name=3DDESCRIPTION>

    <META content=3D"Steam, account, account creation, signup" =

    name=3DKEYWORDS>

    <META content=3D"Valve Corporation" name=3DAUTHOR>

    <META http-equiv=3Drefresh content=3D300><LINK=20

    href=3D"http://www.steampowered.com/steampowered.css&quot; type=3Dtext/css=20

    rel=3Dstylesheet>

    <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>BODY {

    *********************************

    What languages you have installed?

    I have Russian and US English. And I have that second checkbox checked (~"Support hieroglyphs" or somthing similiar)

  20. James Head says:

    How come no one asked about window.createPopup… crashing every installed version of IE6 everywhere…

    the insanity…

  21. Fduch says:

    Post connect bug link for it here

  22. Hi,

    I am not sure whether any of the moderator of this site is reading all the comments or not. Here are the people who were open for disucssion on 09/14/2006.

    Christian (Moderator)

    Kristen [MSFT] (Expert):

    Uche [MSFT] (Expert):

    Chris Wilson [MS] (Expert):

    Max Stevens [MSFT] (Expert):

    If i am not wrong none of them have responded to any of the comment. So i doubt whether they are going to respond to my comment or not. But it seems quite shameful for IE team to come in public and reply back.

    Well my problem is as under.

    I am  using DOM excessively in my code and everything works flawlessly in firefox but IE screws up my party.

    I have one div on my page and on clicking a button i get data usign XMLHTTP request and show it to user under that tab. The data which is recieved again has some ID’s and clicking them again i make XMLHTTP request and get more data from the server. But stupid IE is not able to find those ids and overall it is not able to find the DOM Element or DOM object.

    Further, it is not showing any error also. And by the way the error which IE shows is not at all intutive, still i wanted to see some error but in vain.

    If someone has experienced this problem or know some workaround for this problem please inform me.

    Dipesh Khakhhar

  23. Steve says:

    I missed the chat, but I did stumble across an interesting bug/issue yesterday.

    I reformatted my system, and did a fresh install of XPSP2.  I’m in the habit of keeping an Address bar in my XP task bar.  After adding it, the obnoxious "Go" button was visible, as per the default setting.

    The only way I know of to get rid of it was to go into the advanced options of IE6, and uncheck the appropriate box.

    However, by this time, I had already installed IE7, and that checkbox no longer exists (at least not that I could find).

    The only way I could find to get rid of the button on my task bar (Windows, not IE) was to uninstall IE7, reboot, change the setting in IE6, reinstall IE7 and reboot again.

    How about a way in IE7, or outside IE altogether to trigger the button?

    I imagine it’s just a registry key change, but I couldn’t find it documented anywhere…

  24. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Steve: Good question, simple fix.

    Open a Windows Explorer window and right-click on the Green go button.  Uncheck the "Go button" checkbox on the context menu.  After Explorer restarts, your Go button will be gone in the address bar.

  25. IndraKiran says:

    After installing IE 7.0 beta version, HP All-in-One software is not working, however after unistalling the IE 7.0 and rolling back to IE 6.0 it works, so this issue is clearly with the Incompatible driver with IE 7.0 or Vice versa.

    Please help me in this regard