IE Developer Center Refresh


We’ve just completed a redesign and refresh of the IE Developer Center on MSDN. The goal is to make it easier to find IE related developer content and even includes an updated photo of me with the neon blue ‘e’ behind me that you can find in the lobby of our building on the Redmond campus!

We’ve worked to make some of the essential links such as reference material easier to find and we will be promoting different content on the front page regularly making it well worth visiting on a regular basis or subscribing to the RSS feed. We have also made two MSDN forums to get support for web development and extension development for IE. These will be great resources if you have questions and people are encouraged to answer anything they know the answer to. If you have bugs to report or feedback to provide the links on the support page remain the best place to go.

Some articles along with numerous reference pages have also been updated with IE7 content over the last few months. In particular the Zentech page demonstrating the CSS improvements in IE7 is now available.

As always all feedback on how we can improve documentation is appreciated.

Thanks,

Dave Massy
Program Manager

Comments (98)

  1. Steve says:

    Can you please remove PNG support from your list until you support it properly.

    There are at least 2 major bugs with PNG support in IE7 at the moment.

    1.) The Gamma is all wrong, meaning all images are darker than they should be.

    2.) Transparency fails, if overlaid over any background that is also set to transparent.

    Since the whole issue with PNG support that we complained about in IE6, was the lack of full alpha transparency, I see the current implementation as only half way there.

    Please remove the statement, or fix the code to reflect it.

  2. cj says:

    please get rid of the min-width.  i already have to horizontally scroll for many other microsoft sites when i’m forced to go to them.  please don’t make the ie page another horizontally scrolling nightmare.

  3. Steve,

    I think we’ve always been explicit that PNG alpha channel is the work we have undertaken in IE7. This is delivering on a key demand of web developers. Gamma is something we hope to work on in the future. Can you point me to a place where we say otherwise and I’ll correct it.

    Can you also point to an example where transparency fails if overlaid over any background that is also set to transparent so I can take a look.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  4. So, why *is* the developer center site still non W3C standards compliant?  Table based layout, among other things, primarily caught my attention.  I expected a redesign to use a little more CSS-P in celebration of the IE7 CSS fixes ;->.

    p.s.  Did I notice in your CSS that you’re still supporting IE4 in your design?

  5. The Hater says:

    You may want to take a look at the Web Development > DHTML area.

    This section: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/dhtml_node_entry.asp

    …starts off with "Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 gives you a rich set of properties and methods to dynamically construct and alter Web pages on the fly." It then proceeds to delve into some wonderfully ugly HTML 3-esque examples of markup you should never write any more.

    At any rate, keep the doc updates coming! I don’t use them for a multitude of reasons that would read like blatant flame attempts, but I know others do and I’d rather they read modern docs than continued to write some of the nastiness we still see today.

  6. game kid says:

    One thing I quickly notice about the Zen demo is the slow-rendering page (pc/graphics-card-dependent?).  On my machine (2.8GHz Pentium 4 with a ATI Radeon X1600 Pro), smooth scrolling barely even responds.  It also renders slower than, say, Opera 9 at the moment (which actually scrolls smoothly there).

    Good job making such a page possible on IE, but optimize, optimize, optimize.

  7. @Brett,

    The redesign falls within the framework laid out for all MSDN developer centers with a requirement to work in older browsers. As those browsers become less prevalent we’ll certainly work with that team to redesign their framework to use the latest CSS techniques.

    @The Hater,

    We are also undertaking an update of a number of the node pages over the next few months. I agree mentioning IE4 is hardly relevant to web developers today :)

    Thanks for all the feedback

    -Dave

  8. I’m honestly not trying to flame you, but the rest of us design for standards and then make our sites degrade in older browsers.  You seem to be ignoring screen readers and other accessibility issues, opting instead for support of browsers that I seriously hope none of your developers are using.  

    I do appreciate your response (I like the personal aspect of this blog), and I also appreciate the need for compliance with corporate guidelines.  Just wondering why Microsoft shouldn’t be leading the way in web standards, rather than lagging years behind?

  9. Marcus says:

    Dear Sirs,

    It appears that there are 2 little bugs in the Beta. The first, in fact, is an issue that remained from IE6. The second is new… but, to a certain extent, also relates to a previous issue.

    # 1st Bug — some (?) block-level Objects whose "width" is defined as "100%" ( or any percentage?… ) are resized to a width that exceeds that of its "container" when its content is changed. Ex.: When an empty "TextArea" contained within a "Div" whose "width" has a specified length is filled; When a blank "IFrame" contained within "Body" is loaded with a Document.

    # 2nd Bug — this second is rather a relatively complex one. It appears to be a Script Engine issue, that, for what I have tested, relates only to JS/JS.Encode: when the first "Script" Object in a Document has "language" defined as "jscript.encode", all Event Handlers set in the Document pointing to JS code are rigorously ignored!!! However, the actions performed in Global Scope in the codes contained in or linked through the "Script" Objects are normally executed. The problem ceases when a "Script" with "language=’jscript’" is placed as first Object or when the property "language" ( and, consequently, "src" ) is dynamically defined ( during loading, for example ). Ex.:

    <html>

    <head>

    <!– <script language="jscript"></script> –>

    <script language="jscript.encode">

    function jsTest()

    {

    window.alert("jsTest()")

    }

    window.alert("jsTest() loaded")

    </script>

    </head>

    <body onload="jsTest()">

    </body>

    </html>

    In the above example, the message "jsTest() loaded" will be diplayed and the "onload" will be ignored. But, if the comments arround the first "Script" Object are removed, the "onload" will be executed.

    By the way, in IE6 there is an erratic and obscure issue symmetrical to this one: when the first "Script" Object in a Document has "language" defined as "jscript" and there are others "Script" Objects with "language=’jscript.encode’" a series of very strange behaviors sometimes begins. These behaviors could be summarized as Variable Degradation ( unjustified changes in Type, Value, Scope ). Unfortunately, I have no concrete examples of such things to present.

  10. Borisz says:

    game kid: Try that page on Firefox. It’s 2 times as bad. So bad that you don’t just see horizontal tearing but vertical too.

    to the IE team: There are 2 problems I’m annoyed by in IE.

    1st is the often mentioned PNG Gamma issue. It really seems to me that this should be included in IE7 final. The only thing stopping PNG technology to become truly widespread is the lack of proper support in Internet Explorer.

    2nd, is the "by-design" table drawing method. When IE draws a table in a webpage, it will not display anything thats partially loaded. Once a table is fully loaded, it will get displayed only then. On pages which often have 300k of table data, this can lead to very slow loading and ridiculous cpu spikes (as IE tries to draw ALL of the table – the whole page, including graphics, Flash, etc – at once).

    This 2nd issue can be bypassed by using divs and css instead of tables, but in many cases, tables are just plain easier to work with. (And I’m not even going into the pain of getting proper css that works fine in multiple browsers)

    An example page for this, so you see what i mean, would be any listing at http://www.sonyindex.com/. They use tables and often ridiculous ones in size, so loading takes quite a while.

    In other browsers, this issue is non-present as they draw tables per cells (once the whole cell is downloaded from the html code, it gets displayed), not per whole tables as IE does.

    And chance for this to be changed, or is this another "by-design" thing for which may or may not ever get changed?

  11. Brett Merkey says:

    §

    This latest post, somehow expressing pride in a "redesign," serves to emphasize a weakness of almost all the originating articles in the IEBlog: none of the originators are people who make a living making Web sites and Web applications.

    The point of view is always from team members developing a desktop application — a browser. These are not people, for all their abilities, who have a practical knowledge of Web work.  Hence the lack of real connection, despite intent.

    No Web worker would ballyhoo such a redesign without blushing.

    §

  12. cooperpx says:

    @ Dave Massy

    It certainly is welcome to see pictures of the IE crew. Having a picture of somebody when you "speak with them" over blog or IM provides a more human connection. ’cause that’s what y’all are … normal people doing their jobs as best they can. 😉

    You guys have been very clear about what IE7’s doing with PNG, about ensuring that you mention only the alpha channel.

    Somebody at a meeting, at some time, spoke up and touched on the reaction we’d have. Good developers can predict what happens when you don’t provide the full solution… and that you are.

    NOW! You guys did a great job helping people in short order to handle the EOLAS update with ActiveX / Flash embeds. How about we repeat the same kind of education and "how to" + "can do" tutorial / doc on how to strip GAMA chunks?

    Gama problem *temporarily* solved?

  13. Dear microsoft, can you just fired this people and get someone that can get the job done or  send Internet Explorer to Open Source?.

    Many of the error that your devs said, fixed still are around.

    Example: http://devzone.zend.com/node/view/id/627

    Come on, before releasing IE7 or IE& RC2 get the RENDERING TRASH…oops I mean engine FIXED PLS. Stop making entries about things in which the IE dev team is working and don’t get done with their releases.

    If the rendering engine and css errors can’t be fixed, the please give us a IEXP uninstaller that don’t affect the built in windows update feature.

    I BEG, I BEG, I BEG.

  14. Fiery Kitsune says:

    Here’s an interesting question…

    Is ANY Microsoft site W3C compliant?

  15. Soum says:

    The ZenTech page is way too slow…many css sites perform very badly in ie.

  16. Nobody says:

    May be you should hardware accelerate some drawing.

  17. IE7 hangs up, (quits responding) much too often.

    I hope this will not happen in the release. It would stop me from wanting to use it.

  18. Mark Kenny says:

    I want to voice my support to the IE team. You’re doing a sterling job given all the negative aggro you seem to get on this blog.

    I’m very pleased to hear that IE7 will be closer to supporting standards and features, and I love hearing about the IE team’s ongoing commitment to improvement.

    Reading comments like "we know we’re not there yet" is nice cos it makes MS more human.

    I guess I’m trying to say that not everyone here hates you, and you’ve even won a couple of us former IE-haters over to your cause :)

  19. That

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/ie/

    page does not trigger standards compliant rendering mode. Why implement web standards in which, in practice, you do not believe in?? Why try (and partially succeed) to correct CSS bugs and then not use valid CSS code in the first place??

    101 validation markup errors:

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmsdn.microsoft.com%2Fie%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&ss=1&outline=1&verbose=1

    and well above 200 errors with lots of warnings for the CSS:

    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmsdn.microsoft.com%2Fie%2F&warning=1&profile=css2&usermedium=all

    What’s the excuse here for not creating a valid page using valid code? Not enough time? Too many CSS bugs? Security?

    Every single new webpage (or new webpage content) should be using a strict DTD, should pass markup validation testing and should pass CSS validation testing. What’s so difficult to understand here?

    Why resort to the old, rusted, bad coding practices (table design, lack of accessibility, etc.) over and over again with new webpages and with new webpage content?

    Gérard Talbot

  20. Tijn says:

    Nice to try:

    open the Zen Garden page in IE6 and check it out.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/ietechcol/cols/dnexpie/cssZenGarden.htm

    IE6 cannot make this site to render correct at all…

    Then you see that lots of bugs are fixed and enhancements are made in IE7….

    But still, there is lot more to do in IE7+

  21. TEK_GUN says:

    # re: IE7, IE6 and The Windows Lifecycle

    Saturday, September 02, 2006 12:21 PM by TEK_GUN

    My only complaint was the user interface, Its no more convienant to use IE 7 then it is to use Avant or Firefox will total control over the things I WANT!!! buttons , folders and toolbar icons as well as TAB’s how are you going to share TAB space with other icons for TABS" and not have the abilty TO DROP TABS DOWN TO BOTTOM!!! Or to set up icon address bar or any other ICON!!! LIKE FIREFOX eg. AVANT!!!

    SAFTEY , SECURITY , OPEN CODES GEEK STUFF I’NT THE WHOLE 9 YARDS

    IT HAS TO SUIT THE USER!!! ANF THEY HAVE TO BE COMFORTABLE AND HAS TO CONVIENANT WITH USING IT!!!

    …………And further more ..I only asked if user can use IE-6 on Vista or those that upgrade to Vista will they be commited

  22. Admin. says:

    In the tools menu, it is good to give delete all option in a handy’ Delete Browsing History’ tab. But, it would be more user friendly to exclude passwords from delete all command as it is a big pain in the neck to type them in once delete all command is passed.. A separate confirmation can be asked as in the case of " also delete settings  by add ons".

  23. Adm. says:

    In the tools menu, it is good to give delete all option in a handy’ Delete Browsing History’ tab. But, it would be more user friendly to exclude passwords from delete all command as it is a big pain in the neck to type them in once delete all command is passed.. A separate confirmation can be asked as in the case of " also delete settings  by add ons".

  24. A new IE7 Bug: Magical Act of Disappearing Divs (MADD bug).

    This bug (and a work around) cause some really big problems with this layout.  The work around would be to put the right div above the content div however doing so would put Microsoft at risk of being sued for inducing seizures (being very serious here).

    The default bug I’m talking about is that when a div is positioned on the right inside of an overflow div it will not appear until the user has scrolled to the bottom of the page.  On top of that IE7 FIGHTS the user in certain conditions (additional code) as if it was being dragged to it’s gruesome death should the user made it to the bottom of the page (to make the div appear). Anyway, do you folks have any suggestions on how to work around this?  I am using an conditional comment style sheet for IE7 specifically that I could use if anyone has any suggestions.

    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"&gt;

    <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml&quot; xml:lang="en">

    <head>

    <title>IE7 Bug – Magical Act of Disapearing Divs (MADD)</title>

    <style type="text/css">

    html,body {

    margin: 0px;

    overflow: auto;

    }

    div.body {

    background: #669;

    border: #933 solid;

    border-width: 52px 1px 1px 1px;

    bottom: 4px;

    left: 4px;

    margin: 0px;

    overflow: auto;

    padding:  0px 0px 0px 0px;

    position: absolute;

    right: 4px;

    top: 4px;

    z-index: 1;

    }

    div.content {

    background: #669;

    min-height: 1200px;

    padding: 0px 204px 0px 204px;

    }

    div.left {

    background: #696;

    left: 0px;

    position: absolute;

    top: 0px;

    width: 200px;

    }

    div.right {

    background: #99c;

    border: 0px;

    display: block;

    position: absolute;

    top: 0px;

    right: 0px;

    width: 200px;

    }

    h1 {

    padding: 0px 0px 0px 200px;

    }

    </style>

    </head>

    <body>

    <div class="body">

    <h1>Page Header</h1>

    <div class="content">

    <p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

    Vestibulum tristique tristique arcu.

    Sed vel sem ut libero feugiat luctus.

    Suspendisse quam quam, eleifend vitae, bibendum et, auctor ut, tellus.

    Mauris tincidunt, eros vitae rutrum tincidunt, risus erat pharetra urna, non accumsan tellus ante et lacus.

    Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos.</p>

    </div>

    <!– / Content –>

    <!– Left –>

    <div class="left">

    <h2>Header 2</h2>

    <p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

    Vestibulum tristique tristique arcu.

    Sed vel sem ut libero feugiat luctus.

    Suspendisse quam quam, eleifend vitae, bibendum et, auctor ut, tellus.

    Mauris tincidunt, eros vitae rutrum tincidunt, risus erat pharetra urna, non accumsan tellus ante et lacus.

    Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos.</p>

    </div>

    <!– Right –>

    <div class="right">

    <h2>Header 2</h2>

    <p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

    Vestibulum tristique tristique arcu.

    Sed vel sem ut libero feugiat luctus.

    Suspendisse quam quam, eleifend vitae, bibendum et, auctor ut, tellus.

    Mauris tincidunt, eros vitae rutrum tincidunt, risus erat pharetra urna, non accumsan tellus ante et lacus.

    Class aptent taciti sociosqu ad litora torquent per conubia nostra, per inceptos hymenaeos.</p>

    </div>

    <!– /DIVBODY –>

    </div>

    </body>

    </html>

  25. R.I.P IE7 before it’s release?

    IE7, you want to make us a big Favor, let us uninstall IE without affecting Windows Updates PLS PLS PLS PLS.

    I am tired of this crap, IE7 Don’t deserve to be in the same PC with Firefox, Opera or any other in the market.

  26. For those defending all the negative post about IE7, don’t make fool of yourselves, all this negative post and rating are based in VALID REASONS, WE ARE BEING FORCED TO HAVE IE Installed, the last thing we can ask for QUALITY, heck.

    A real browser http://www.download.com/Mozilla-Firefox/3003-2356_4-10568573.html?tag=sptlt_s

  27. Two things…

    1.) In regards to my first post if you put the right div above the content and click you can make most of the page disappear.  I forgot to add that to my post.

    2.) To people like Omar A. Perez who are posting bugs on pages that contain errors in the code (58) please…

    A.) Grow up or delete this favorite/bookmark

    B.) If you’re going to post then do so in regards to actual standards (and not poorly written pages).

    I don’t imagine replying to posts on the IE Blog can be the highlight of any of the IE team member’s day (maybe an understatement). So an honest question: who decides when IE becomes a priority and when it does not? I am of course omitting any curiosity to the why aspect.

  28. James says:

    I would suggest getting someone like the team that designed Mozilla.org to refresh your entire brand.

    Look at the developer site for Mozilla, compare it to yours. If you seriously can’t tell the difference, well, then I rest my case 😀

    The Mozilla site is lean, fast and still looks good. It wasn’t always. It used to be a hokey, ugly piece of crap, but they got a team that cared to come in and redo it.

    I don’t see why you should not be able to do the same…It would at least start lending some credibility to your desire to improve the experience for developers too.

  29. mark says:

    I find it odd that opera manages to render the now up zentek page without any lag when scrolling while in ie7 rc1 and firefox it lags when scrolling down.

  30. jimmy says:

    hi,

    I installed rc1,and then everytime i open infopath it reports "sth is null or not a object"

    and ie7 always overlay an exist tab: for example: i opened tab A and tab B,then,i click a new link from tab A,expecting it will open in a new tab(C),but it opened in tab B,which i can’t read anymore.

  31. Steve says:

    @Dave Massy [MSFT]

    Do you guys read the stuff in "IE Feedback"?! There are several bugs entered on the Gamma issue, this is _NOT_ news!

    Ditto for the transparency issue.  Or, if you can’t find it in "IE Feedback", because the searching sucks! (yes, there are bugs entered on that too!), then try Google.

    And as for the comment, about how the statement is that alpha would be fixed… I think you miss the point.

    If my dealer says that my car’s wipers now work, meaning I can drive in the rain, cool! but if my brakes don’t work now, what good are the darn wipers!

    This is what PNG support is all about.  We want a fully supported PNG image.  Not much to ask after 6 years of MS development.

  32. Steve,

    Yes we read the feedback and the correct place to report bugs is through connect http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/support/default.mspx. The gamma support issue is known and was never targetted for the IE7 release. As I said we are looking at this for a future release.

    To examine the transparency issue you refer to we need to have a repro case. While I can search as effectively as you can if you supply full details and a repro case then we can be certain we are seeing the same issue as you are. The best bug reports include full steps to reproduce the issue along with both expected and actual results. Without that it is difficult to be certain we are looking at the same issue.

    There is an excellent older blog post covering the transparent PNG work at http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/04/26/412263.aspx

    Thanks

    -Dave

  33. rc says:

    @Dave Massy [MSFT]

    "As I said we are looking at this for a future release."

    Another six years? Or maybe ten?

    Indeed, IE 7 is the new Netscape 4. ;-(

  34. A very interesting site, I think. The Idea of Technometry was new for me but worth to be read and thought abot it (although I’m not a native english-speaker and have some difficulties whith this language)

  35. martindholmes says:

    Hi there,

    We’ve discovered that when submitting text through XMLHttpRequest, both IE6 and IE7 garble the Unicode characters. Here’s a good test page:

    <http://www.tapor.uvic.ca/cocoon/scancan/authors.htm&gt;

    Click on "Bio" next to the first author, and you’ll see the right text is found because the id submitted is ascii. However, if you click on the Bio button for Jääskeläinen, Michael, you’ll see that nothing is retrieved because in this case the id is jääskeläinen_michael. The page works fine in Firefox, Moz, Konqueror, Safari, Opera and Camino. Tests have shown that the umlaut a’s (along with other accented characters, phonetic characters etc.) are not submitted in correct UTF-8 encoding to the server.

    If you care about this, I have other more detailed demonstrations of this bug that I can send you. Even in IE7 using the new XMLHttpRequest, the same problem exists. I’ve tried every permutation I can think of to enforce the UTF-8 encoding, but nothing works. IE seems to be broken completely in this respect. All other browsers work, and we’re now having to build all our projects that use Unicode and AJAX with notices to the effect that IE cannot be used to access them.

    Please look into this and give me some hope that it might be fixed. I’m very happy to work with you to clarify test cases and test workarounds.

    Best regards,

    Martin Holmes

    University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre

  36. Martin says:

    Is it a feature, or a bug that most of the navigation features only work in internet explorer, and not in firefox/mozilla.

    I know this is a general problem with msnd.com. Try to navigate the documentation for the win32 using a non-internet explorer browser, and you really got the urge to screem. (And win32 development is diffucult enough as is, there is no need to make the documentation almost imposible to navigate).

    (Yes I know this might be off topic, but I hope someone from msnd.com read this anyway :}

  37. Aedrin says:

    "ALID REASONS, WE ARE BEING FORCED TO HAVE IE I"

    You can install Linux if you want. No one is forcing you. You are acting as though IE causes you physical pain. Get over the childish attitude and at least be constructive.

    Install Firefox/Opera/whichever and only use IE for updates. This is how most people do it. Without the ridiculous complaining/CapsLock spam.

    ""As I said we are looking at this for a future release."

    Another six years? Or maybe ten?

    Indeed, IE 7 is the new Netscape 4. ;-("

    Comments like these show the ignorance of some readers and their ability to not read a single word. It has been said multiple times already what the release plans are. If you come here to bash, go somewhere else.

  38. Fduch says:

    @Aedrin

    Imagine you have best PC/cell phone, but it STINKS.

    You’ll want it not to stink, yes?

    Some people will tell you "nobody forces you to use it", "you can switch it to the worse model".

  39. rc says:

    @Aedrin

    "It has been said multiple times already what the release plans are"

    You’re wrong. There’s no public announcements about mythical "future releases". These "future releases" sound like "radiant future" which was once promised in some Eastern Europe countries. :-)

    And I also was wrong that IE 7 is the new Netscape 4. N4 was up-to-date when it had entered the market; it became outdated after several years of usage. But IE7 is old-fashioned and totally obsolete _initially_. :-(

  40. Fduch says:

    WOW!

    First they didn’t anounce IE chat.

    Now they took them down completely.

    Don’t feel like answering questions?

  41. DMassy says:

    Fduch,

    There is an upcoming chat on IE scheduled for September 14th at 10:00AM PDT which you will see announced here shortly. I don’t know why the chat site is unavailable at the moment. We’ll follow up on that.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  42. Wakeup Now says:

    Simply put your IE 7 RC 1 is worse than Beta 3. it is no candidate actually, not now atleast.It is buggy and unwieldy. please go back to the drawing board and try to justify the hefty pay packet you may have charged for this sloppy copy of Firefox.

    And by the way why I have to press Connect twice on two different dilogue boxes to coonect to the net when I want to browse a URL in IE 7  ????

    You guys have not even done an honest recce of the basic features even till date.

    Microsoft is sure on its way downhill with guys like you on board!

  43. Aedrin, actually physical pain is nothing compared to mental intranquility is nothing, I can check fine some pages, that I need to check, I already started installed linux (gentoo) as secondary System in all the offices and already told everybody that we might be using gentoo as primary Os and OpenOffice as main office suite.

    So they have to learn it. In my newest and smaller business which sells pc pieces and also built pc and intall windows, I started to remove all the windows promos, except those from Nvidia / ATI / INTEL / AMD as main image. I also started to promote linux as a free alternative for the people that get their PC for first time with us. At the same time asked distributors to send me more Linux Compatible Software.

    So in other words we might be switching from windows to linux in general. Peace…

  44. Wakeup Now , I totally agree with you, if I were Bill, I would fire all these developers, who dares to show a inmature browser as RC1, is a shame, is really a shame…

  45. Dmitri44 says:

    Fresh look at the Web Development. Pretty support to the IE team & customers.

    PingBack from http://hostbazar.info/?p=16

  46. Hassan says:

    Hey Guys,

    Till now i have loved the new IE. But i have found a bug which really hurts me so much as i have to do this like every day.

    Bug is that when you open Project Server 2003 web access the activex controls over there dont open. That server is in my trusted zone, i have checked the security settings, everything but i just cant find it what is the issue.

  47. Dave Massy, a PM from the Internet Explorer team, blogged about the revamp of the IE Developer Center on MSDN: We’ve worked to make some of the essential links such as reference material easier to find and we will be…

  48. Nate says:

    I am wondering where I can gather information on which HTML tags are supported in IE7. Do you conform to the XHTML 1.0 or HTML 4.01 standards?

    I’m specifically looking at the CENTER tag. Is it supported?

    Nate

  49. DMassy says:

    Hi Nate,

    The reference material on MSDN shows which elements are supported by IE http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/html/reference/elements.asp

    XHTML is not supported by IE beyond the fact that well formed HTML is supported. This is something that will be examined for a future release of IE. In IE7 there have been some improvements with HTML4.01 support with the addition of the ABBR element and improved object fallback.

    The CENTER tag is supported see http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/objects/center.asp but as noted on that reference page it is a deprecated element and CSS should be used to style content.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  50. Just fo rthe record, download.com started to use CSS and IE7 have trouble rendering that site… another popular site using the new standars…

  51. Nate says:

    Dave

    Thanks for your quick response. I was wondering where on those pages I find that it is supported in a browser (IE7, or earlier). For CENTER it is fairly obvious (all browsers) but what about ABBR, you said it’s available in IE7, but I assume, not IE6 (haven’t tried) Where do I find this information out ?

    Also I am strongly in favour of web standards. I know that you want your browser to be backwards compatable for people who don’t know about web standards or sites that haven’t been updated in several years.

    But do you know when a tag like CENTER will be dropped from support? IE8 possibly?

    Nate

  52. AC says:

    @Omar A. Perez

    Why would you fire the developers? Do you honestly think all of these decisions on what to put it in IE are on their shoulders?

    These are management decisions. Direct those comments towards upper/middle management and program managers.

  53. Tino Zijdel says:

    DMassy: I hope you are not referring to syntax like <meta /> as ‘well formed HTML’ because it is exactly the opposite. XHTML-syntax in an HTML document (mind you: it’s in the mimetype, not in the doctype) is mallformed HTML, and if ‘error-correction’ is a synonym for ‘support of XHTML-syntax’ than it is no wonder that IE is still not fully standards-compliant, even when it comes to HTML4.01… (since when is <table> allowed in <p>?)

  54. DMassy says:

    Nate,

    As you have spotted we are currently missing the information on the reference pages for which version of IE supports particular elements. I’m hoping we can get that information back into the ref pages soon. we also want to improve the documetnation to discourage the use of deprecated elements.

    We have no plans to remove supprt for elements such as CENTER as there is web content that relies on this.

    Tino,

    As I said IE does not support XHTML at the current time and I certainly did not mean to imply that it did. I apologise if you got that impression. XHTML support is as I said something for a future version of IE.

    Others,

    Please keep the debate here respectful.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  55. Mr Massy,

    A lot of us are genuine web standards oriented people and we have constructively collaborated/cooperated during at least the last 24 months to the best of our abilities to report CSS bugs, wrong/incorrect implementations, etc.. Here are just a few of them:

    Peter-Paul Koch ,

    Holly Bergevin and John Gallant ,

    David Hammond ,

    incutio.com people,

    projectseven.com people,

    Bruno Fassino ,

    Robin Lionheart ,

    Aleksandar Vaci&#263; ,

    Marc Pacheco ,

    Emmett the Sane ,

    Patrick Fitzgerald ,

    Robert Blaut ,

    Tino Zijdel ,

    John A. Bilicki III

    and myself

    (and I’m not even mentioning web standards advocacy groups here)

    with real, solid, accessible testcases demonstrating CSS bugs (and HTML 4.01 bugs, DOM bugs, javascript bugs, security bugs, etc.)

    2 questions for you now.

    1- Is there a real commitment from Microsoft to make every new webpage, every updated webpage at microsoft.com

    a) to use a strict doctype to trigger standards compliant rendering mode

    b) to pass markup validation test against a strict DTD

    c) to pass CSS validation test

    2- When is the next release of MSIE 7.x planned? I’m not talking of MSIE 7.0 final release here; I’m talking about the release of, say, MSIE 7.1 here. Most of us know that Microsoft wants to update its IE browser on a more regular basis/frequency but it could still be as much as 2 years between updates, minor versions.

    As soon as June 17th 2004 Microsoft said "IE team is listening" and on July 23rd 2004, it got "hundreds of web authors overwhelmingly wanted Microsoft to address the issues of conformance and correctness of web standards implementation in its IE 6 browser"

    http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2004/07/23/193120.aspx

    So, it is perfectly normal and reasonable to expect Microsoft to fix the hundreds of known, documented, demo-cased, reproducible bugs that still has lingered on and on over the last 10 years – yes, 10 years – and which will  still be in MSIE 7.0.

    Gérard Talbot

  56. DMassy says:

    Hi Gerard,

    1 – The webpages that make up microsoft.com are outside the direct control of the Internet Explorer team. We can and will ask the teams responsible to use the strict doctype and pass validation tests.

    2 – We are currently planning the next releases of Internet Explorer. We are unlikely to discuss particular dates and features until we are further along with the project. We certainly intend to be alot more frequent and regular with releases than the gap between IE6 and IE7 :) We fully expect and plan that future releases will continue the work started in IE7 to improve on support for CSS and other recommendations.

    We really appreciate the different tests and bug reports that have been made by the community over the past few years. We looked at many of these and worked with the Web Standards project to help us prioritise the work we have undertaken in IE7. We expect to continue to use such tests and bug reports from the community to help us prioritise the work in future releases.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  57. Aedrin says:

    ‘You’re wrong. There’s no public announcements about mythical "future releases"."

    It has been stated several times on this blog and in the chats.

    I believe the idea is a major update every 18 months with frequent minor updates in between.

    @Omar A. Perez

    I wish for mercy upon your technical support. Giving Linux to customers who have been used to Windows is bad business.

    Linux is a great server platform, but it’s not yet ready for mass desktop use.

  58. @AC

    I would fire them for not being efficient, I don’t think any executive of microsoft is going to say, hey know what make a new version of IE7 and don’t make it compatible with the new standards. (download.com is already starting to use CSS and the new standards and we are talking about a site with millions of visit per day.

    @Dave

    I saw  something at download blog today, about browser shield good to see that feature coming, but can you and your team already use this famous phrase and apply it?: less talking more working (in this case fixing).

    @Aedrin

    Actually that’s why I said, that I am starting with first time users and introduce them to linux(gentoo). Some of my customers are already happy with it since they saved money and only paid a small fee for one year of linux support, so actually is a benefit for my PC store :), I am glad microsoft made me mad enough to try something different.

    The next step will be to make my current custormers to switch to gentoo(linux) and show them how to use Cedega or WINE for their games, some already asked if there was a way to play EverQuest and World of Warcraft from linux and I told them, yes. But I am doing this slowly, since I already hired a few person with enough knowledge to give a good linux support, I will have to keep that team and promote gentoo as an alternative for their desktops.

    So not big deal.

  59. Tino Zijdel says:

    DMassy:

    "As I said IE does not support XHTML at the current time and I certainly did not mean to imply that it did. I apologise if you got that impression. XHTML support is as I said something for a future version of IE."

    You must have misread my post because that was not my point at all. Personally I don’t care much about XHTML support because in most cases HTML suits just fine (remember that XHTML is just the XML-serialization of HTML4.01 so it doesn’t offer more in the sence of semantics or strictness and on the other hand it’s draconion error-handling and general disadvantages of being an XML-application make it less suitable for normal webpages).

    Now what I was referring to was your following quote: "XHTML is not supported by IE beyond the fact that well formed HTML is supported."

    In my book ‘well formed’ means: according to the syntax rules, but from your quote I understand that you are saying that XHTML-syntax is considered ‘well formed HTML’ which it is not because XHTML-syntax is in many cases invalid HTML-syntax. If you would strictly parse XHTML-syntax as HTML you would see ‘>’-characters all over the place. Luckily browsers (IE not being an exception) just ignore those (assumed excessive) characters or more probably ignore the ‘/’-character preceding them because they did not implement the SGML SHORTTAG feature. Especially in the latter case this is an example of error-correction but that must not be confused with ‘having support for XHTML-syntax in HTML rendering mode’ because that in itself would be ridiculous; it’s like having support for VBScript syntax when using JScript. Ignoring mallformed syntax or trying to correct it is a whole different matter and has nothing to do with actually supporting alternative syntax. In this case the fact that XHTML-syntax can be handled by your HTML-parser because the error-correction can deal with the mallformations is a lucky side-effect but could never have been a goal in itself (and if it where then shame on you for not fully/correctly implementing the SGML specifications in the first place).

    And last but not least I did not include my remark about IE happily but incorrectly nesting tables within paragraphs for some fun but as another example of how IE is still ignoring HTML specifications (or recommendations if you like). Testpage: http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/ie7beta/html_nesting.html

    I share the same concerns as Gérard Talbot and apart from replies in the form of "We fully expect and plan that future releases will continue the work started in IE7 to improve on support for CSS and other recommendations" and "We looked at many of these and worked with the Web Standards project to help us prioritise the work we have undertaken in IE7." we don’t get any actual feedback on them. Why do you deem it is OK to ship a browser that apart from some bugfixes and some marginal improvements in the CSS-area still has many bugs, quirks and shortcomings – most still remaining from well known issues in IE6 but some also new due to different behavior especially in the ‘hasLayout’-section?

    My best guess for the future:

    I think that at best we can expect an IE7.5 somewhere a year from now that brings some more support for CSS2.1-features, maybe some JS/DOM-related improvements and perhaps XHTML-support ((X)HTML5/WA1 XHTML2.0?), but nothing really fundamental so still loads of problems when it comes to the CSS visual formatting model.

    Maybe the real fundamental issues can be tackled when IE8 is released perhaps 2 years from now, provided that MS starts working on a new rendering engine right now. So best case scenario is that MS will ship a browser that is standards-compliant to the level of todays alternative browsers in two years.

    When IE8 is not pushed by the introduction of a new OS this will mean that most people will keep on using IE7 or IE7.5 even after the release of IE8 untill a new OS comes along, and even than it will take approximately 5 years before webdevelopers can drop support for IE7.x

    So basically we are looking at at least another 7 years of hacking around IE’s quirks just because MS is fitting Windows Vista with a technological inferior browser. Thanks a lot.

  60. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @TEK_GUN: No, Windows Vista does not support IE6.

    @martindholmes: As we discussed in mail, you must use a valid URI when calling XMLHTTPRequest.Open.  In particular, you should wrap your querystring parameters using encodeURIComponent to ensure that Unicode characters are correctly converted to %-encoded UTF-8.

  61. rc says:

    @ Dave Massy

    Just one question: what are the main advantages of IE 7 in comparsion with alternate browsers?

    If this question was already been answered elsewhere, please give a direct link. Thanks.

    The same question to all other IE fans.

  62. Dave says:

    @ rc: IE is prettier, especially on Vista.  And it works better with more sites.  Good enuf for me.

  63. hAl says:

    Will a future version IE add the XAML support to the current VML support now that Vista will have a Windows presentation foundation that uses XAML ?

  64. DMassy says:

    rc, take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie and the tour there.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  65. Fduch says:

    rc: what are the main advantages of IE 7 in comparsion with alternate browsers

    *) IE7 cannot handle japanese unicode filenames. So you have some defence from japanese hackers while FF can be vulnarable.

    *) IE7 doesn’t let you open more than 50 tabs. Thats very neat feature. You’ll never be lost. FF/Opera let you open much more and it’s scary.

    *) IE7 downloads pages and images bad. It timeouts or downloads corrupt files or says page cannot be displayed. This is a Parental Control feature to prevent children from watching pr0n.

    *) IE7 has funny feature called "Error Of The Day" which shows some random witty error messages while browsing (Like "Couldn’t complete operation due to error 800700de"). FF and Opera are too boring.

    *) When IE7 thinks that some page is suspicious it crashes to prevent hackes from exploiting your PC. I think it’s a part of "Browza Shilt" technology preventing 0-day exploits.

    *) IE7 dispays PNG darkened. It remind you that the life is not so happy and shiny.

  66. rc says:

    @DMassy

    "take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie and the tour there."

    No, it’s not an answer. On that page many features of IE are described, but NONE of these features can count as an advantage in comparsion with other browsers.

    I didn’t ask about what IE features are. I asked only for something where IE beats its competitors. A very common question about any new product on the market.

  67. DMassy says:

    rc,

    The link I referred you to goes through a number of enhancements to IE many of which we consider to be an advantage over competing browsers. That list would include the simplified UI, printing improvements, RSS platform support, quicktabs, security work such as antiphishing, SSL UI and protected mode on Windows Vista amongst other things. As we have said many many times before we know there is more work to do particularly around CSS and DOM support in the platform and the team is excited by the challenge of doing that.

    I think the link I referred you to explains this quite well.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  68. AC says:

    @Omar

    "I would fire them for not being efficient, I don’t think any executive of microsoft is going to say, hey know what make a new version of IE7 and don’t make it compatible with the new standards."

    I think that’s where you’re tripping up. MS executive DO say things like that. Somewhere along the tune of "We need to get this out the door. It needs X amount of time to test. We figure with this amount of staffing, you’ll be doing A,B,C,D features. Also, don’t worry about bugs Q,R,S,T,U,V,W because that might make things unstable."

    You’re either overestimating the developer influence, or underestimating how much control the project managers and executives have on the product.

  69. AC says:

    @Omar

    "hey know what make a new version of IE7 and don’t make it compatible with the new standards."

    They don’t put it exactly that way. It was more "Make a new version or IE. Make it secure. Give it some flash, catch up on some of those features that people want like tabs; they’re killing us there. If you have time, make it as standards compliant as possible. That sort of thing is less noticed by the average user."

  70. @rc

    Go in google and write IE CSS or IE WC3 or IE new standards, see the advantages, hehe. My opinion, there are not advatanges, in fact you can consider IE as a virus in your PC, since you can’t removed it from the machine without affecting other built in features like: windows update.

    @AC

    So the IE now have tabs and firefox, opera and other browsers still are growing while IE is sinking, the 40% of my sites are visited  by alternative browsers, almost 30% firefox and guess what up to the 99% of my visitors are using windows xp O’s, as said by awstats.

    AC, IE wasn’t ready for release from the very begining, in fact RCI should be actually consideres as beta 1, because beta 1 was HORRIBLE, except of course the new charming UI, they sent me a version of IE because I. I am software dev, second I started to run PC store and was and still are selling their products.

  71. Frank says:

    Fduch> Why do you bother posting anything without a url that shows the problem?  

    Are you just a troll, or maybe you get paid by a competitor who figures they can get some FUD out there?

  72. Admin says:

    RCI is worse than beta versions,I wonder how someone could call this non-starter as RCI?

    What has gone wrong with Microsoft’s quality control? If you guys have to call valid criticism as deliberate attack, then shut this forum and dump in the market what you would and face the music later on. Choice is yours!

  73. DMassy says:

    Admin,

    Can you please be specific about issues you see with RC1 and report them through the mechanisms on the support page at http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/support/default.mspx

    The general response to RC1 has been extremely positive and clearly not everyone might be seeing the issues that you are. If you can provide ful details with repro steps and both expected and actual results then we can investigate. We continue to work toward the final release of IE7 and believe we are getting close.

    Thanks

    -Dave Massy [MSFT]

  74. Admin says:

    Hi Massy,

    I would like to mention one major bug  that forced me to switch back to beta 3 immediately and reinstallation did not help either.

    The bug has been mentioned by me earlier also in this forum elsewhere. The bug is the appearance of the Connect dialogue box (even when you are already online) when you hit a url in RCI’s favourite list. If you hit the Connect tab, you can continue surfing.If you happen to cut/ cancel this unnecessary Connect dialogue box, you end up disconnecting the net. This happens almost as many times as you may choose a URL from the favourite menu in RCI. What a pain!

    Moreover, why all IE7 versions need two different Connect dialogue boxes to hit to connect to the net? This never was the case with previous versions.

    Then there has been problems with deleting an item in favourite menu. The delete tab remains

    inactive till you hit the task-bar and come back to hit the delete tab which happens to get active after this unnecessary hassle.

    Now a suggestion, delete browsing history and delete all tab in it is a big facility but please do not include the passwords in this delete all command as it is a big hassle to fill your passwords again and again. A separate reconfrmation to this effect can be included in IE7, if you keep it unchecked, the delete all command should leave the passwords intact. I think this would be much appreciated by most.

    Moreover, it would be great if a shortcut/facility could be given in IE7 to bring up the the proxy server dialogue box directly, to help change the proxy server  without the trouble of hitting several buttons. It will make IE7 darling of many.  

    Many thanks!

  75. Tino Zijdel says:

    "The general response to RC1 has been extremely positive"

    You have given the ol’ house a fresh paintjob but it still has a shaky foundation and you are now asking bypassers what they think of your ‘new’ house instead of listening to the people that actually have to live in it.

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  77. article xp says:

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  78. alick says:

    Is there any way that I can show the Manage Add-ons dialog in my own application? just like Internet option.

    I didn’t find any information in IE Developer Center.

  79. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Admin: I’ve actually been working on a browser extension which makes it very easy to switch the proxy server from a toolbar button.  Drop me a note (ericlaw@microsoft) and let me know what features you’d like to see.