The little things count…


It’s clear from the comments that the participants and readers enjoyed our August 10th chat. It was a pleasant surprise to not only get a ‘Great Job’ but also to get ‘xxxx’ (kisses) from one of the participants (to find out the exact quote, check out the transcript and Ctrl+F ‘xxxx’). I never expected to connect in this way with a customer but hey, I love surprises. Please feel free to come to the next chat (the schedule is available at: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx).

We enjoy your company and speaking for myself, these little gestures help to keep going.

Cheers,
Uche Enuha
Program Manager

Comments (87)

  1. T. Ferguson says:

    Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back.  IE7 is still a steaming pile compared to Firefox, Opera, or any of the more modern browsers.  You have a LONG way to go.

  2. Anon says:

    It’s the classy comments like yours, T. Ferguson, that make the IEBlog so much fun.

  3. Anon says:

    It’s the classy comments like yours, T. Ferguson, that make the IEBlog so much fun.

  4. Streaky says:

    Any chance of adding anchors to the individual questions on the transcripts in future? Would make it _much_ easier to link to specific questions for you, me and anybody else that needs to do it for whatever reason :)

  5. Anon says:

    Why don’t you guys rewrite IE in Managed code?  Yes, it might be a little bit slower but at least we wouldn’t have to deal with the (almost daily) security breaches from the innumerable buffer overflows that apparently still reside in the code.

  6. AJ says:

    Well i thought T Fergusons comment was absolutely hilarious and makes that post well worth reading.

    Keep it up

    AJ

  7. cooperpx says:

    LOL @ Uche

    Indeed though, it is pretty rare these days that anyone sends you guys anything but seething unrest.

    [snarky]

    We’re sure to see posts indicating that the Mozilla has TWICE the virtual kisses directed at them… of course though, they’ll reference a year old article. Opera will noticably receive no mention.

    [/snarky]

    ps, it’s good to see (in the transcripts) that I’m not the only one that makes typos! :)

  8. PatriotB says:

    Anon: how long are you willing to wait for that managed code-based browser?  Y’know, I bet that if immediately after IE6’s release in 2001, MS had decided to rewrite IE7 in managed code, we still would not have seen it by today.

    And it would be five times slower and would eat up five times as much memory.  All the bugs that have been found and fixed within the past 10+ years of IE development?  They would be fair game again.  Just think of the massive amount of work it would take to create exactly the same rendering and OM behavior in the "new" browser as the old one (remember, line-of-business apps and intranet apps depend on 100% compatibility from one version to the next).

    A rewrite like this is death: just ask Netscape.  (Yes, I know, Firefox came out of Netscape’s ashes, but Netscape was essentially destroyed as a result.)

    And when they were starting the Mozilla project, how come they didn’t choose to write it in Java, a popular managed code environment?  Maybe they realized that it is not ideal for large, speed-critical applications.

  9. Garth says:

    I’m sure this has been brought up numorous times, but why is the refresh button on the right and not near the back/forward buttons?

    This seems like a big flaw, especially for people using forums, posting comments etc.

    eg. Visit a forum, enter a thread, post a reply, click "back" to go back to the index, then scroll all the way across the address bar to click "refresh" to see if there are any new posts.

    IE7 users will definately win in a mouse pedometer competition.

  10. Al Billings says:

    You know we all love you, Uche. :-)

  11. PatriotB says:

    Garth:  Short answer?  Because that’s how it is in Windows Explorer in Vista.  And remember, Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer used to use the same code for stuff like the window frame, menus, toolbars, etc.

    But at some point they seemed to have "de-integrated" the two explorers (hence, why IE has a separate stop button while WE still has the combined refresh/stop button).  So, now that they’re separate, why not continue to make changes?  I don’t know.  I’m sure there’s a "long answer" that someone on the IE team could give us. :)

  12. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @cooperpx: rofl. :-)

    @Garth: If you don’t want to use the keyboard shortcuts, and you don’t have a mouse with programmable buttons, you might like the IE Gestures plugin that lets you refresh (or go back, forward, etc) without moving the mouse up to the toolbar.  See http://enhanceie.com for that and other great addons.

    @PatriotB: The other short answer is that there’s lots of customizability that we’d like to offer, and will in the future.

    @Anon: Unfortunately, buffer overflows are only a small (and shrinking) part of the picture.  Between NX support on hardware, GS support in the compilers, and automated code-review tools, and protected mode on Vista, buffer overflow prevention has dramatically improved over the last few years.  That’s not to imply that the security job is done, or that managed code doesn’t have a bright future, but just that it’s not a panacea.

  13. Garth says:

    I can only hope that the IE team can shed some light on the reasoning behind the separation.

    All the other interface changes are improvements, no-one really uses the menu toolbar constantly, however I am very curious to know why the refresh button was moved into such an illogical place.

  14. Ray says:

    IE7 has buttons??? my god, first time i have noticed, i always use shortcuts to access everything, hrmm, guess other people don’t, oh well, back to my other tasks.

  15. Thomas Tallyce says:

    Great to hear that

    "Markus Mielke will have an IEBlog post shortly on the CSS changes in IE7."

  16. Tino Zijdel says:

    Just a word of warning; it is bad enough that it looks now that IE7 will ship not having the same level of CSS-conformance that other browsers have, but it needs to be said that shipping IE7 with a badly broken (as in buggy) implementation – IE7 beta 3 has fundamental flaws and bugs in the CSS-area – would be a very bad thing.

  17. David Wrixon says:

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  18. Spike says:

    The little things like decent CSS Support?

    :)

  19. Bernardo says:

    This has nothing to do with the subject: I’m just posting it in hope someone can help me. Previously I was able to see the pictures in this blog (and all others) and now I can only see pictures in the others — but not in this one. Any hint?

    Thanks.

  20. Steve says:

    Quick question:

    In developing IE7, MS released the "Developer Toolbar" for IE7 (and IE6).  It went through a revision to fix a bunch of bugs, but since, it has kind of dropped from discussions…

    I think the tool has potential to be much better (e.g. like the Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox)

    but I don’t have a location to send feedback/bug reports?

    E.g.

    1.) The Ruler won’t work across frames, or SVG documents (likely other things)

    2.) many of the editable properties won’t apply, or do not take effect.

    Where can we start logging the bugs/feature requests, and also, when can we expect the next release?

    Cheers,

    Steve

  21. Steve says:

    Yikes… my Dev toolbar in IE7 doesn’t even handle frames! (in a vmware session).

    Am I the only one noticing this?

    (PS it displays in IE6, but not in my virtual IE7)

  22. CoCoKola says:

    In a previous chat there was mention that the run-as functionality for IE was going away – meaning you won’t be able to do a run-as, and then browse to your local C: to launch things (control panel) easily under a different security context.  Is this still the case?  if so, the large beverage company I work for will have a lot of very unhappy support.  

  23. mocax says:

    Hey IEGuys, I’m still waiting for a couple of little things like highlighting text and dragging them into the search and/or url bar

  24. Steve,

    Rest assured that the Developer toolbar has not dropped off the radar at all. We have a number of enhancements to it in the works and are definitely interested in any reported bugs. Please give feedback through the IE feedback channels http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/support/default.mspx and we’ll be sure to see it.

    Thanks

    -Dave

  25. Mike says:

    I’m finding IE7 to be an efficient browser. I do have one "little thing" that is a bit of an issue for me.

    When one goes to add something to Favorites, the drop down seems to be in no particular order. Any chance that in the next "new & improved" version of the beta that can maintain a sense of order that more resembles one’s order of Favorites, so that the folder where a new link goes can be easily found?

  26. DR_DREW says:

    @EricLaw

    again, save target as does not work on any page! what could be the problem? the option to save any link to the disk isn’t even allowed, it’s always grayed out.

    should i reinstall ie7 completely?

  27. TheViewMaster says:

    UpDated…

    Internet Options —> Advanced —> Browsing —>

    [x] Open Windows Full Screen.

    The little things count…

    Aloha!

    😉

  28. D Jackson says:

    Has anyone tried to unistall IE7 and have windows still work?  I uninstalled IE7 to test a probable incompatibility with Macromedia Dreamweaver.  It fixed the incompatibility, but now I get messages when running different programs that the publisher can’t be verified.  This never happened before.  I have since tried reinstalling IE6 and XP SP2, but to no avail.  Now I am back to installing IE7 to have my little incompatibility problem again.

  29. Ray says:

    biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig CSS bug that needs looking at, take a look at this page (http://digg.com/programming/Learn_how_to_build_an_Ajax_RSS_reader), some Digg comments you have to click on ‘show comment’ to *supposedly* see, but as soon as the box appears, the text disappears, please fix, it’s getting freakin’ annoying trying to read comments like this only to find i have to continously click the ‘show comment’ ‘hide comment’ link in order to see a quick flash of the comment before it disappears.

  30. Fduch says:

    IE7 is bug-frozen now.

    No more bugs will be fixed for the next 6 month and the time will be used for polishing the chrome.

    Users

    ..Developers

    ….Web Developers

    We heard you!!!

    And we’re telling you "SHUT UP"

  31. Ron says:

    @Ray, that’s something for Digg to fix.

    @IETeam, apparently you’ve fixed the Quirky Percentages bug [1] from the PIE article [2], however it still looks very broken to me in IE7B3. Have you fixed it or not?

    [1]: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

    [2]: http://positioniseverything.net/explorer/percentages.html

  32. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @Fduch: You’re confused– "polishing" means fixing bugs.

    @D Jackson: Are the programs in question located on a network share?

    @DR_DREW: If you right-click on the Internet Explorer desktop icon and choose to start IE with No Addons, does this problem still occur?

  33. Tino Zijdel says:

    EricLaw: it seems to me that IE7 will need a little bit more than just ‘polishing’ to fix the bugs in the current CSS-implementation (and I’m not talking about the lack of some properties but actual bugs in the area of z-index, inheriting, collapsing margins, positioning, layout rendering etcetera).

    What can we (developers) expect in improvement of that situation between now and the final version of IE7? Will IE7 become a browser that is not only not fully standards-compliant when it comes to CSS2.1 but also buggy at it (maybe less buggy than IE6 is, but still buggy) – putting us in a position where we have to hack for IE6 *and* IE7 seperately to make our pages work? Because at this point that is my biggest fear. I’d rather have Microsoft ship IE7 without the new (hacked) Trident engine and take more time to get it right the first time and ship f.i. IE7.5 or IE8.0 with a new engine, than shipping a product that is half-finished and bug-ridden.

    I do sincerely hope that my fear wil prove needless…

  34. 小峰 says:

    通    知

       今天起全国公共厕所更名为靖国神社。今后上厕所小便不能叫小便,统一叫小泉。大便不能叫大便,统一叫天皇(添黄)。 敬请抓紧通知各地朋友4个,是中国人就转!

       太狠了,不转不行啊!不过此通知.不狠我也转

     强烈支持~!!~哇哈哈“  

  35. D Jackson says:

    Eric,

    Yes the programs are on a network share.  One is for our accounting software and the other is for an encryption key maker that we use.

    Also, with Macromedia Dreamweaver, when IE7 is installed, it can’t seem to save the login information for putting files to our web ftp site.  The local copy of the webfiles are also on a network share.

  36. Fduch says:

    @EricLaw

    By "Polishing the Chrome" I meant PR, talking to site owners, redrawing a pair of icons etc.

    I say that because when I look at bugs at connect I [nearly] always see

    *Won’t fix (It’s not fun)

    *Not reproducible (while many people can reproduce it and even write it in comments)

    *By Design (This is often hilarious)

    Q "IE7 Doesn’t work"

    A "By Design", "Closed"

  37. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    @D Jackson: Inside IE, choose Tools | Internet options | Security.  For each of the security zones, set the security setting to the default level.  On the Intranet zone, click Sites, and check all three boxes on the dialog.

  38. rc says:

    A simple question to the IE team:

       Is IE better than other browsers? If it is, then why (specifically)?

    I wonder if IE Team is capable to answer.

  39. Dave says:

    Silly question, silly answer.

    IE is better than other browsers.  It’s also the same as other browsers. It’s also worse than other browsers.

  40. Dru says:

    Hey guys, I had this great super innovative idea. We clearly have millions of fans who care passionately about our product. We should pay some some of the fanbois and get them to build a huge crop circle in the shape of the IE logo!!!

    How cool and original would that be??

    Of course, we would need to run it by legal first. And the trademark signs would be hard to see even in a very big crop circle indeed. But given how popular our browser is (we’re SO honored that Joe Q Public CHOOSES us!!!) we must have people champing at the bit to do their bit to promote our software…

  41. Peter says:

    I can’t understand why so many people have trouble with the truly little things.  Like moving the refresh button, I never touch the mouse most of the time keyboard shortsuts are much faster when browsing.  I am more cocerned about the CSS issue but I also realize that everything takes time in these implementations. I also freely admit that there isn’t a perfect browser anywhere out there or on the foreseeable horizon.  Lets dump the negatives on things that do not truly matter and concentrate on the real issues.  Security is the paramount need and from what I’ve found I feel it is being addressed in IE7, it still needs a lot of attention.  I also see that it needs a lot of attention in all the other browsers as well.  Anyone who won’t admit that is simply not facing reality.  Thats my humble opinion.

  42. Omar Perez says:

    How can I uninstall Internet explorer from my system without affecting my OS? I say this because unfortanely, while the devs of IE don’t want to make IE7 compatible with the new standars, more and more pages are switching to to it and with IE7, I just can’t browse more than 20 pages, which are the one I visit more. I sent an email reporting this BUG, and I got an email back saying it was already FIXED but as you can read is a big LIE from Microsoft. between the errors they are: can’t see the background, problems with Css menus, problems with images, This don’t happen with Opera, Mozilla Firefox and neither with  Netscape, I tested them all, So who here can do me a favor and give me a link, of how can I uninstall Internet explorer 7 and Windows XP internet explore, without affecting the windows update system and the windows of Windows, in other words a safe way to uninstall IE from my system once and for all.

  43. streaky says:

    Well, if the little things count.. Maybe the big ones don’t?

    I thought the SERIOUS issue with PNG alpha transparency was fixed in IE7? See, I could swear it was.. I remember a blog post stating how great you guys are for fixing it (even though it’s a pretty basic thing for a browser to support).

    Yet reading the chat transcript, I notice that it isn’t fixed whatsoever, and on testing, it’s definately not.. Wth is going on with that?

    The other thing, somebody posted a link to a test, and the responder pointed out that it [IE 7] actually performs pretty well – thing is – it doesn’t, it fails miserably.. What’s the deal?

  44. not me says:

    How is it that IE 7 looks like a bad (but probably was really expensive) knock-off of Mozilla Firefox? Firefox has cool extensions, does IE 7? <a href="http://getfirefox.com>Get Firefox</a> instead.

    I noticed on the IE download page that it’s the "world’s most popular Web browser," but probably because every Windows computer and OS is shipped with it. That’ll change once people download Firefox some more after the first 100 million it already has.

    Happy trials, IE users!

  45. AnonL says:



    (In spirit of writing non-relevant comments in a blog relevancy should be a requisite…)

    @rc: "Is IE better than other browsers?"

    1) An answer some people used to daydream about and you’d LOVE to hear:

             IE Team: It’s not. It is NOT??? Oh MY GOD! It’s the worst! It’s so unpopular and buggy and can’t draw a line straight… how could we even call it a browser? What are we doin’ here? How could we waste our young days helping this evil Mob-rule-$oft playing God, underpinning its burdensome dominance while joyfully playing Monopoly® … We’re all resigning today and will go back to the beauty parlor we used to work before we got greedy and ended up in corporate slavery at M$…

    2) An answer with such baseless structure and vacuousness that only practicality one could find is in a troll-hungry mindset like yours:

             A simple question to the Rc:

             Are your comments helping the internet community better than others? If they are, then why?

             I wonder if you’re capable to answer!

    3) An answer from a highly close-minded community (mostly fanatic open-source cults, Digg-like denominations and all political circles that are flooding money into campaigning against M$ and IE):

             You are so banned.

             All your posts are erased and all members that have included you in their friend list are warned to denounce you in public within 48 hours or be treated correspondingly.

             Reason: You named a hateful "word" a person/company/software/website/snacks/TV series/comic book villain/hair products/… and did not use a demeaning/curse reference within limiting range of 25 characters from the mentioned abhorrent word.

             Next time, always use a decent "lame-ass IE", "IE sux" or "IE (< FF)" or you can use "M$ FireFox emulator" or "FireFox knock-off" if you prefer euphemism. You may also use your personal vulgarity if you registered as +18 years old.

             Warning: Do NOT use this formula with our specified respected "words". If you think "It’d be funny" you are severely mistaken and violating our Terms of Use at this very moment and should decline your membership immediately. Should you be found doing so and proven to be purposeful, we would exercise a ruthless DDos attack on your website or mortify you in public with our environment friendly shame-tomato or infamy-pie if we find you personally (and we usually do, ask M$ Chairman).

             Caution: If you’re registered as a minor and get caught using uncouth language, you also will be banned from the entire internet and all. If you don’t believe this ask your grandparents.

    4) The answer we all know deep down that would be the right one and sadly can’t affirm openly:

             Well, it’s simply not yet. It’s a couple of years behind, especially in standard compliance area. So far, its developing team has been rejuvenated and they are back on it full time since last year and evidently they’re moving forward with reasonable pace. Meanwhile they would definitely use some helpful feedbacks instead of any self-satisfied rhetorical questions and specifically silly comments replying to them.

    (By the way, I like these stupid comments, they are making this blog a tickling read)

    Thanks for reading this nonsense. (And excusing my English, I’m learning)

    ———–

    (Yes, it’s now an old cliché but what the hell…)

    5) An answer from the inventor of the Internet himself:

             Al Gore: Mosaic’s the best!

  46. I have an ASUS Z83V and I cannot uninstall IE 7. Love the product but cannot get the runonce screen to go away. Please help!

  47. Oma Perez says:

    Before all AnoL, Mozilla gets money for developing Firefox, so if we are talking about $$$, all the software developers (companies, foundations), receive money for their work, even if they just ads to their websites.

    Second for i…ot like you the team of microsoft don’t take seriouslly custormers like me, at the moment to be honest, I don’t expect them to fix the SERIOUS rendering and visualization problems of IE, all I just want is a way to uninstall IE7 and then to Uninstall IE once and for all, but not for that I am going to come over here and blame corporations and their system, because the poor programming of the IE7. I also hate the arrogant attitude of the IE team saying that they were not going to make IE compatible with the new web standars and which is the result, now more of the 20 page I visit frequently are using those standars and the big hit will be whe world of warcraft page switch to those standards and the million of players, will be forced to switch to firefox, opera, netscape and other browsers.

  48. Joe says:

    PNG transparency is fixed.  There’s still an issue with gamma, but for the most part, transparent PNGs work just fine.

    Hugh— Do you have script enabled?  Also check Tools > Manage Addons and make sure that you’ve got the ShellUI helper enabled?  

    Oma: Why call it a "standard" if it doesn’t work in the browser which more than 85% of people use?  

    That’s like saying VHS was bad because it doesn’t support the BETAMAX "standard" tapes.

  49. IE7FanBoy says:

    Why does VML access now come up with a "Do you wish to run this activeX control?" — isn’t it marked as safe?

  50. PatriotB says:

    DR_DREW: Is Content Advisor turned on?  (Tools > Options > Content)  From what I understand, when Content Advisor is turned on, IE automatically disables the "Save Target As" link because it doesn’t know whether the target file will be allowed or banned.  (Though, there are probably better ways to have designed that feature…)

  51. Omar Perez says:

    Before all, thanks for giving suggestion to possible fix, secon, is not true internet is not holding more than 60% at the moment, I work with various hosting, including http://veguild.org which is guild site for a upcoming game and all the awstasts give IE between 53 to 60%, in that presice range.

    When I first came over here to complain about the same problem it was just one website, now 20 switched to the same standard, so i can’t visualize the web, so what should i do, tell the webmaster hey don’t use those standars because  I can’t see the web?, he will reply, is easier for me to work with the website that way and keep the design with CSS and the new standars. LETS FACE IT, the numbers at the sites say it. the true is that IE lost about 10# more of their users in just 3 months, and while I love teh great interface of IE7, my main goal with the browser is to see the websites.

  52. Frank says:

    Omar, you’re mistaken.  See data from multiple sources at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers, and you’ll notice IE share in the mid-80s.

    It sounds like you’re having a problem with your installation of IE.  How about you tell us which sites you’re having a problem "visualizing" and explain what’s wrong with them?

  53. John says:

    FIX THE FAVICONS !!!!

  54. lol says:

    <a href="lucky7.to/jonn">msn.com</a>

  55. AnonL says:

    @Omar Perez

    From a web-developer point of view, I would say it’s my "obligation" to keep my pages usable to browsers with around 10% share of usage. If it can’t be done there is something definitely wrong with my layout design or my definition of "compatibility" in this computer era. Compatibility is an expensive obligatory feature. Extensive resources are being consumed just to make an OS compatible with its older versions or these quad-core cpus we got today still cover stone-age x86 instructions and believe me, this is a huge bummer! And yes, those fed up engineers could simply say let’s dump the old design, that would be more efficient and "easier".

    I’d love to know what kind of up to snuff new-standard CSS tricks those web-developers you mentioned are using that are worth to have a browser with ~60% of share dumped apathetically.

    Arrogance of a colossal international corporation like Microsoft doesn’t really surprise me, what really has me staggered is the decisive conceit and small-mindedness of some new-wave web designers who would rather shove in a whole different browser down poor users throat than have their hands dirty of manually shuffling through those auto generated HTML or CssStyle lines to patch up some compatibility rag for Pete’s sake.

    I know it would be a nightmare if you wanna get CSS creative with IE but I’ve been doing this as part of my job. Tolerance, as much as we can give, would really be appreciated as we are speeding into a new global web in this century.

    Thanks again.

    (Nonetheless, Making the IE standard compliance is on the team’s top agendas, I believe. The question is when they gonna catch up)

  56. tedzzz says:

    it  will  require  sp2

    and  only 1/3 of xp users have it.

    source  http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39241527,00.htm

    The moving of buttons will cause  the same issues xp caused when moving from 98. Support staffs will be going nuts.  The big question is can the unrest be afforded…wih a very viable alternative like firefox.

    I love tabs and multiple home pages, but

    I know a number of firefox users who dont use them. The tab settings in IE use six check boxes and two radio buttons….the average person will need the peverbial friend "to fix thier ^&&*&*!# browser"

    Wizards will be needed for the masses.

  57. Phil says:

    Ummm… as someone who doesn’t fully understand every aspect of every Internet protocol and gimmick, can someone please tell me why IE 7 doesn’t support DTD feeds (and what the hell is a DTD feed)?  I tried to subscribe to http://www.kde.org and IE brutally informs me about DTD’s.  Or is it because kde.org is a Linux Desktop site? :-)

    However I am VERY impressed with the way IE 7 handles SSL certificates that are expired or possibly compromised – we have atest system at work that has a generic SSL cert and IE 7 warns us of this beautifully – the red address bar is a nice touch.

    Phil.

  58. D Jackson says:

    <quote>@D Jackson: Inside IE, choose Tools | Internet options | Security.  For each of the security zones, set the security setting to the default level.  On the Intranet zone, click Sites, and check all three boxes on the dialog.</quote>

    @EricLaw: This worked for anything that was being accessed via a browser, but the two programs that I was concerned about, don’t use IE. Or if they do then it isn’t really apparent that they do.  I found no way to fix the two non-IE integrated applications, so I had to reinstall IE7.  Now I am back to having a small incompatibility with Dreamweaver, where it won’t remember the login information for putting files up to our ftp site.

  59. William J. Edney says:

    All –

    I’m tired of all of the negative comments here. Yes, like many of you, I have literally lost years off my life trying to work around IE bugs. Many times in the last 9 years (since I’ve been working in browsers) I have cursed Microsoft so loudly over all of the bugs in their product that the people involved ears are probably still burning.

    But you know what? They’re trying to fix it. To sit here and slam people at Microsoft who are working their butts off trying to fix this thing is non-productive and just plain unfair. It’s not their fault that this thing still isn’t implementing an *8* year old standard correctly. It the business / marketing people that run Microsoft. They’re the ones in control and the tech guys can only do what they’re told. They were told to stop working on it so they did. Stop biting the hands that are actively involved in trying to fix this mess. If you want to rant, purchase 1 share of Microsoft stock, attend the next shareholder’s meeting and give Ballmer et. al. hell. They’re the ones responsible for this, not these guys.

    Now that I’ve vented :-), I would have one suggestion for Markus when he does his blog / article on CSS. Just as important to telling us what you guys did fix is telling us what you didn’t fix, but know about. That way we won’t spend hours and hours trying something that still won’t work.

    Thanks to all of the Microsoft folks who are trying to fix this thing and ‘boo’ to all of the Microsoft business / marketing folks who have held the web back for so many years.

    Cheers,

    – Bill

  60. Omar Perez says:

    Frank, before all I work with websites and I manage 8 websites and did creative job for oteher 12, IE is between the 55% to 60%, at least is what all the websites awstasts say to me.

    Heck William, you are right, well not really, check the comments from the very beta 1 to now beta 3, they came with a beta 3 browser a few weeks earlier tha they planned with just UI modification and tool fixes, but nothing related with the CSS and others rendering problems. Now, then what the heck I am doing here? i am trying to find a way to uninstall IE from windows XP without affecting windows update, because they made a fully integrated system, where if you remove something the whole system dies… at least is my exprience with PC lite products.

    Anyway any hint on this.?

  61. Ethan says:

    IEBlog guys – I heard IE7 RC1 is going to be released to the public on Wednesday this week (Aug 23rd). If so, I’m excited. Is this true?

  62. Tino Zijdel says:

    Bill:

    "Yes, like many of you, I have literally lost years off my life trying to work around IE bugs."

    The thing is that with the current state of IE7 we (webdevelopers) can expect to keep losing ‘years of our lives’ because IE7 still has a buggy CSS-implementation. In that respect (buggy in IE6, still buggy in IE7) it is not much of an improvement. I even would like to call it a set-back since IE7 may have fixed some issues that where annoying in IE6 but introduced some new annoying bugs that have to be dealt with seperately.

  63. Fduch says:

    I think that some non-web-developers can wonder what’s all this buzz about "CSS", all that "standarts" and "compliance"/"support".

    They should take a look at this.

    http://realfduch.deviantart.com/

    This site hosts more than 18 Millions pieces of art. I think it’s the biggest of it’s kind.

    Look and laugh. (or cry)

  64. PatriotB says:

    Tino — are you suggesting that Microsoft shouldn’t release a new version of IE until it has 100% support for [insert standard here] ?

    Are you also offering the same suggestion to the folks working on Firefox 2.0?  Because as far as I know, it still isn’t perfect either (e.g. it won’t pass Acid2 either).

  65. PatriotB says:

    tedzzz: "it  will  require  sp2 and  only 1/3 of xp users have it."

    You’ll notice that the article you link to is over 1 year old.  I imagine that the percentage is much, much higher now.  And maybe IE7 requiring SP2 will be a good incentive to those last holdouts.  That and the fact that XPSP1 support is scheduled to end on October 10 of this year: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean19

    Anyone running XP but not SP2 is just asking for security problems.  You’ve had two years to resolve any issues that’s holding you back: time to install it.

  66. Tino Zijdel says:

    PatriotB: No, I’m suggesting Microsoft shouldn’t release a new version until it’s CSS-support is on a simular level as other browsers.

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  68. pete b says:

    I agree with Tino, my exprerience of Ie7 is thus:

    Some additions and bug fixes from ie6.

    The addition of some fairly fundamental rendering bugs that weren’t in ie6. How useful is that?

    I’m starting to feel sentimental about ie6 all of a sudden. It’s bugs are.. familiar, still annoying, but at least we’re all well drilled in working around them.

    Bring on the conditional comments:

    <!–[if new IE browser]

    <p>

    precious hours of happy socialbility, being

    lost supporting this new internet explorer

    </p>

    –[end if]–>

       

  69. AnonL says:

    @Fduch

    Well, I took a look at deviantart.com and saw the disaster. Any web-developer with a good knowledge of IE should be on something unbelievably strong if the very first line of its html-source doesn’t throw him off the chair with an electrocuting creep all over his body: "<!– –>". This I call being trapped in "Quirk-Mode Quagmire" [1].

             To be honest, the layout-design and CSS frameset of the website is apparently put together with a deviant cast of mind (a few puns are intended). Maintaining a website that is designed to work on IE non-standard mode and other browsers standard mode is not very "wise". There are IE hacks all over CSS files which hint a bitter fact that the web-site was built with "Make it IE compatible" step in finishing parts of workflow.

             I’m even barely a mediocre web designer. I know I must choose a strict doctype at the beginning, and avoid hacks as much as possible, no matter how much hell I might pay to make things look right on all browsers. It doesn’t end here but there’s no point in criticizing the website right now.

             And there is another bitter fact I always try to deny. Sometimes I think about this dark idea that maybe, I’m saying "maybe", more that half of all IE’s harshest criticisms, those IE tragedies that we hear often in web communities which usually end in heart-rending death of our web-designer hero before fulfilling his vow to his mistress, should not be actually directed at IE itself. Perhaps it was our hero’s lack of erudition that brought about his downfall. Ok, I know this is creepy and I shouldn’t talk about it, but I can’t get it out of my head…

             Seriously, I’m really concerned about deviantart.com; I love free communities like this and I wish I could help. You’re not a staff member are you? Anyway here is not the place to talk about this. It’s all troubling to think there are popular websites like this and we’re going to have IE7 ready to ship in a few months from now. There are many hours of work to be done and I wish they build it up from scratch without any mind-bogglingly complicated layout and unnecessarily adventurous design is their heads. I wish them luck.

    Thanks.

    ————————————

    [1]. I know you’re all webby people and know exactly what it means, but for those who may wonder what is it: IE6 works in 2 modes, non-standard (for backward compatibility) and standard (well, lame-standard some might prefer). If our page starts with anything funnier than a carefully constructed DOCTYPE, IE will kick back to its nonstandard (quirk) mode.

  70. Aedrin says:

    "PatriotB: No, I’m suggesting Microsoft shouldn’t release a new version until it’s CSS-support is on a simular level as other browsers."

    So when people ask for standards support, what they mean is they should support the competition?

    Until someone can produce a browser that is 100% supportive of standards (I think this will never happen) everyone should stop complaining about IE and just work with it. That is what you’re paid to do.

    If you don’t like developing websites that work with IE, then stop developing websites. It’s all part of it.

    And believe it or not, most people couldn’t care less about standards support so this mass transition to Firefox people keep expecting will most likely not happen.

    PS: It’s 80%+ by the way, not 50-60%.

  71. The Steve says:

    "I just want is a way to uninstall IE7 and then to Uninstall IE once and for all, but not for that I am going to come over here and blame corporations and their system, because the poor programming of the IE7."

    – Oma Perez

    There is a big problem with this.  If you were able to uninstall IE completely, many Windows applications would no longer function properly.  That’s because using IE’s rendering engine for a third-party application’s interface is a fairly common practice.  In fact there’s some software that I’ve taken over the development on which was done this way.

  72. streaky says:

    "Tino — are you suggesting that Microsoft shouldn’t release a new version of IE until it has 100% support for [insert standard here] ? "

    I don’t think anybody is saying that, the issue is very clearly a question of what happens after IE 7..

    Some of us don’t develop with table layouts, being as the year is 2006 (so I’m told). I don’t personally use IE much, but that doesn’t change the fact that I have to develop _for it_ which currently is an absolute nightmare.

    I’ve been wanting to develop in XHTML 1.1 and CSS 2 for a while, but currently the implementation just isn’t anywhere in sight – will we really have to wait 6 years for IE 8, and by then will there even be XHTML 1.1 and full CSS 2 support? What about X-Forms and CSS 3, XHTML 2 and all the other goodness that should in theory actually make developing web browsers easier.

    Would it have hurt you guys really to build an XML rendering engine in the space of 6 years? I bet if you’d actually bothered you could have put together such a thing together in 2 months, so why claim otherwise?

    I know some of you IE lovers think standards are stupid, but standards make the world go round – they enable interop between applications and without them we’d return to a world of "This site works best with <Insert Useless Browser Here>".

    In fact, given the severe lack of IE updates and the state (or lack of state) of IE 7 – I’m surprised we haven’t already got there.

    The number of times I’ve almost served up a page explaining why IE users can’t visit a site you wouldn’t believe.

    All I’m saying is, people should be more understanding of why as web developers, we get pretty emotional about what goes on with IE – if something doesn’t work right it can take hours of work to fix it for IE, even if the page meets the standards _and_ works in every other browser – which is the case 99% of the time.

  73. Tino Zijdel says:

    "So when people ask for standards support, what they mean is they should support the competition? "

    No, although the competition definitely sets a target and when bringing a new product to the market you should strive to achieve that same target and preferably be even better than the competition. IE7 by all means is not when it comes to CSS-compliance.

    The last thing we (webdevelopers) need is yet another browser with broken CSS-support (we already have some of those to support and they all come from a company in Redmond), and by broken I don’t mean lack of some features but broken in the sence of buggy as in not according to the standard as in showing behavior that is incorrect wereas it is (mostly) correct in other browsers.

    Although IE7 still suffers from a lot of bugs that were already present in IE6 it is a vastly different browser when it comes to CSS rendering and introduces a whole new set of bugs that need to be dealt with seperately from the known workarounds we had for the bugs in IE6. That means more extra work and unhappy customers because they now have to pay more and will be totally confused because Microsoft keeps telling everybody that IE7 is more standards-compliant.

    In terms of numbers by adding some features and fixing some bugs you may argue that that will make you ‘more compliant’, but at the end of the day it is still a broken implementation, and as long as the problems are still on a very fundamental level I’d argue that IE7 is still a very non-compliant browser…

  74. Aedrin says:

    "I know some of you IE lovers think standards are stupid, but standards make the world go round – they enable interop between applications and without them we’d return to a world of "This site works best with <Insert Useless Browser Here>"."

    I haven’t seen any "IE lover" claim that standards are not helpful. Without standards we would still be serving tables with background images.

    What bothers me is when "Firefox lovers" come in, claiming it is the best and every other browser should be modeled after it. Sure it has good standards support, but it’s not the perfect browser. There are others who in my opinion have done it better.

    HTML/CSS is what it is currently. IE requires some minor additional changes/tweaking. But contrary to what some people like to claim, it is not 90% of development or "years of sociable time" lost.

    I think that part of the blame falls on incompetent developers that for years used faulty techniques and methods. IE is different from all browsers in that it has to support previous functionality too. They can’t just – like Firefox – release a new version which completely breaks all existing plugins. Few commercial entities use Firefox so there is no responsibility. Similar with updates, when IE has to release an update, it needs to be tested thoroughly. With Firefox, it is just released and websites that care enough will fix themself. Open source may have its benefits, but constant support is not one of them. There is a reason many people still use Microsoft’s programs. And it is not because it is claimed to be a monopoly.

  75. streaky says:

    The point I was trying to make is that something that works in other browsers should work in IE with no problems whatsoever.. I’m no fan of following standards as if they are the law either – but clearly Microsoft has made some marketing / managerial decisions over the years which have left IE in a bad place – notably the IE 6 release timing, which left IE with some half-assed XHTML / CSS support. I don’t blame the developers, I blame the people higher up. I was essentially asking if the next IE incarnation will be shipped with the next OS release after Vista – because if that happens, I doubt anybody could seriously use IE as an example of how MIcrosoft are unfairly dominating the market – simply because, at some point, developers who are wanting to use tools at their disposal – like XHTML 1.1 and SVG as very good examples are going to start putting together sites that "Works best with your choice of browser that isn’t IE" if / when IE starts losing it’s dominance.

    I’m actually hoping the situation improves because there are things I love about IE, plus the tabs in Firefox 2.0 annoy me :)

    Guess we’ll see what happens, but from my point of view as a developer wanting to get his hands dirty with tools liks X-Forms and XHTML 1.1+ – IE 6 should be taken by people high up at Microsoft as a strong cautionary tale of how fast the internet can move and that 6 years for some fixes of alot of pretty nasty bugs isn’t going to wash twice in a company’s history.. Even a company as big as Microsoft.

  76. I’m glad you’ve been putting forth this effort.  IE7 will be using our W3C style sheet for our upcoming site, rather than our IE6 style sheet. Good on you.

    Nevertheless, I keep discovering interesting glitches. An experimental page I’m working on, exhibits two of them:

    http://www.sfmta.com/test_cb/newsite/sfmta/iframeparent001.htm

    In one glitch, an XML page that I’ve expected to be rendered within an IFRAME via my XSLT file, has instead been displayed as IE7 would normally display a feed.  Shades of the substitute 404 page!  How do I tell IE7 that I want it to apply the XSLT instead of treating the file as a feed?

    In the other glitch, I am attempting to set the height of the IFRAME based on the height of its content.  Even though the parent page and the IFRAME target are on the same server, I am getting an "Access Denied" JavaScript error.  I would only expect to get this error if the two files were on different servers.

    Any suggestions on workarounds?

  77. @Aedrin "It’s 80%+ by the way, not 50-60%."  I assume that was @Omar Perez.  

    Browser choices are likely to vary depending on audience.

    Our website, a public transit site, stats have IE at less than 2/3, Mozilla at 2/9, and Safari at 1/9 (all approximate) last time I checked.  But most of our site visitors are from the San Francisco Bay Area.   Obviously a Linux site is going to get a lower % of IE visitors since IE doesn’t run on Linux.

    Percentages only matter for prioritization.  Everyone has to be able to use our site.  It doesn’t have to be pretty for everyone.

  78. mocax says:

    IE7 has some cool stuff, but some bad stuff. Mozilla has come cool stuff, but some horrendous stuff.

    Still waiting for someone to come up with a browser that offers best of both worlds (and discard the bad things, of course)

    Microsoft’s interest in the Mozilla project should be a start of new stuff to come.

    MozIE?

    MSFox?

  79. Alex says:

    Sory man, I could not find **** (kiss) in the transcript. Maybe it was illusion?

  80. And who said that my sites are linux oriented? I didn’t  in fact the 98.5 of the 8 sites on which I am currently working use, windows OS, linux is about the 0.4 and Mac around 0.6, My most recent project is a guild site for a game which was going to be published by Microsoft and now is being published by SOE, I am talking about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, I am going to play it and I made a website for my guild.

    Well. peace..

  81. Two features on the top of my list:

    1. A mute button

    2. A keyboard shortcut for "Break at Next Statement"

  82. Very close but, oops, far away from the fix needed, hehe, is amazing we are in where now? RC1? and they  from my perspective only fixed one error of the four on which I am a victim.

    Pending fixes:

    Background Errors: Backgrounds are not showing up in IE7.

    Links: Links are appearing in different color.

    Fonts errors: IE7 is displaying different fonts and sometimes characters, like TM, (r), etc, where there should be a font.