Layout Complete Announced at MIX06


Thursday, March 23rd and I am sitting in the airport heading home from MIX06. It was a great conference with very good customer interactions. Also hanging out with Eric, Molly, Andy, Tantek and Dave was a lot of fun.

Yesterday, I had my talk, “Making your site look great in IE7”. Even though the title implied that the talk was only on IE7 the real focus was on making standard based designs great on IE7 and other browsers. To prove that I ran the audience to a CSSZenGarden inspired demo, and showed it on IE7, Firefox and Opera. I say CSSZenGarden-inspired, since the real goal of this demo was to push the envelope of standard based design using only the fixed HTML (the images you see on the page are actually background images to not change the semantics of the HTML) provided by CSSZenGarden and CSS (no script involved).  

Demo Page

In my demo, I highlighted three features:

Fixed positioning

The whole chrome in the window was fixed positioning. This gave me the advantage to build a frame like layout without the heavy lifting of frames. You also see the curtain like visual effects that you can easily achieve this way in addition to having a fixed place for the menus (the preview images of other CSSZenGarden designs).

Alpha transparent PNGs

The next feature I showed of was cool fading effects you can achieve through alpha transparent PNGs on scrolling the page. I expect that the visual richness on the web will drastically change once IE7 ships. I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature.

Transparency Demonstration 

:hover on all elements

Last but not least, I demoed the rich capabilities of :hover on all elements. Since you are not suppose to change the markup of a CSSZenGarden design, we used :hover on divs to enable a live preview of CSSZenGarden designs. I can imagine that with this feature you are able to build very rich dynamic effects completely without touching javascript.

Hover Demonstration

In addition to the ZenTek demo, I was also showing the audience how we prioritized our work for IE7, what benefits are in the product for web devs (fixes and features) and what the community can do to prepare for IE7 (common form of breaks we see and what tools we have made available to help in the updating process).

I was also happy to announce that we are now layout complete with the release of the MIX build – we don’t plan to add more layout features or drastically change layout behavior. This gives web developers a chance to test and prepare your pages for Vista Beta2 and the final release of IE7.  There are still bugs and missing features (display tables, generated content to name a few) we would have liked to do for IE7 but based on your requests to have some lead time to test your pages we need to lock it down now to be able to ship IE7. The good news is that we are in the progress of building up a public bug database where you can submit your issues, track their progress and see when we internally fix an issue – Al is going to post about this soon.  Your participation will help us greatly to improve IE and also help us to prioritize what bugs to fix for the next releases.

 – Markus Mielke

Comments (144)

  1. Eru G says:

    Awesome stuff – its about time IE made the transition into the 19th century let alone the 21st, and looks seriously like it’s about to stop being a headache and a half for us web developers – great stuff… Also, wouldn’t mind seeing that design on the real csszengarden.com !

  2. game kid says:

    Put this demo on the zen garden NOW.

    …please?

  3. Gordon says:

    Or at least a demo hosted somewhere, as I’m sure it’ll be much more informative to us than a single screenshot.

  4. Thomas Tallyce says:

    > The good news is that we are in the progress of building up a public bug database where you can submit your issues, track their progress and see when we internally fix an issue

    That’s probably the best news in this posting.

    There is an awful lot of scattered info all over the web about problems with Trident (and the rest of IE) and getting what is effectively a bug list centralised, thus avoiding duplication, as well as seeing how progress is being made, will be very helpful.

  5. game kid says:

    In hindsight, I’m shocked the database news was so well-hidden.

    Take on the other browsers head-on.  Don’t just shyly learn from them.

  6. Ralesk says:

    Excellent news.

    I’d like to join in with asking that you please submit the Style to the Garden (or put it online) — we’d really love to see it!

    I had a chuckle on your comment on alpha-enabled PNG’s.  To be honest, we could have been pulling off such interesting feats with web designs for the last five years if not only Explorer-as-a-file-browser had supported alpha PNG’s :)  Oh well, glad you guys are on track.

    The centralised bug database is an excellent idea — I’m looking forward to it!  It’ll be an incredible help for both Microsoft and the users/ web developers (developers! developers!).

    Lastly, as it has been said many, many times, we’d really, really love a separately installable IE7.  Sensible web developers can’t live without testing on IE6, as most people who don’t or can’t use Windows XP or Vista won’t be able to install IE7.

    Keep up the good work.

  7. Adam says:

    I would also like to add the notion for the millionth time.  Make IE7 compatible with older versions of windows.

    Personally thousands of developers (myself included) have waited for years to finally have our customers able to access our IDN sites.

    Millions of our customers from Japan, China, Russia, and every country in the world are trying to access our sites daily.  They are coming to us only on firefox and opera.

    Unfortunately Explorer is the leader in these countries sometimes as high as 95-98% in places.  We would have written Microsoft off years ago if this wasn’t the case and we will immediately if Firefox starts a campaign there.

    We are getting very tired of this waiting game.

    Oh, wait a second, I see Firefox has 2.0 alpha beta out now.  How long ago was 1.5.1?

  8. S says:

    like everyone else, where’s the live working example?

  9. Chris says:

    Not to sound mean, but I won’t believe it works in others until I can test it in Firefox/Opera/Konqueror on Linux.

  10. khristopher says:

    glad to hear there will be a public bug database.

  11. Ron says:

    Bad news: IE7B2P is layout complete.

    Good news: There will be a bug tracking system.

  12. Overflow elements based on bottom, left, right, and top positioning (in contrast to height and width) need to be corrected…

    http://www.jabcreations.com/home/home-news.php

    wmode is required in order to make flash PART of a site (and not A site as so many miserably fail at)…

    http://www.jabcreations.com/home/home-about-credits.php

    Flash objects with audio can be heard even when they’re on divs set to display: none.

    I’m not sure if these (except the first) count as layout but it seems like IE7 is going to be one step up and one step down. If Vista isn’t coming out until the end then what (besides the horrid GUI) is left to be fixed?

  13. I’m excited to hear about the public bug database. I’ve been quite pleased with Ladybug for Visual Studio issues, so it’s great to hear you’re coming up with something for Internet Explorer.

  14. John A. Bilicki III says:

    My apologies, didn’t quite finish my post…

    Flash objects are being requested by the browser when they have not been requested by the user using the browser.  This will waste a lot of bandwidth and will also require JavaScript hacks to detect a div’s display value to then interact with the flash object.  That’s pretty much a hack.

  15. Nektar says:

    I hope that when you build a bug database that it will include all Microsoft products and not only Internet Explorer. Having separate bug databases confuses users. Have a single site where users can file bugs, suggestions, interact with one another in the forums and have access through usenet as well. Is it so difficult?

  16. Please put this demo up on the net, it would be a great way to show what has changed between 6 and 7 (that and it’s a really nice style, I would like to see it up on cssZenGarden)

  17. Dao says:

    > Flash objects with audio can be heard even when they’re on divs set to display: none.

    What has "display" to do with audio? This isn’t related to Flash but probably all objects. And I don’t consider this a bug.

  18. aBlogByGus says:

    This latest IE release (March 20, 2006) is really pretty solid and a huge improvement over previous releases. If you haven’t installed it, you really probably should. Also, according to this post on the IE blog, it looks like they’re…

  19. SchizoDuckie says:

    Now that :hover is fixed, what about the annoying and proprietary background-image cache bug?? If you :hover over an element that has a background image it STILL reloads it EVERY time, wich wastes a LOT of http bandwidth and is truely annoying for developers and users

  20. xfinx says:

    I smell marketing money here :(

    For webdevelopers it would be very neat if all the bug could be fixed.

    A lot of users don’t care about updates and stuff. This means that in the future, we have 10 different IE versions, and a lot of different other browsers.

    I understand why you want to stop developing and start shipping, personally I think it is not your   decision.

    Anyways, we have to deal with it..

    I am verry happy with a public bug system. Although I don’t like (any) IE version(personal taste) I would help making it a better browser!

    Thanks for all the work you’ve done.

    Te fala!,

    xfinx

  21. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    SchizoDuckie: Please provide a repro URI.  I no longer see this behavior in IE7.

  22. Tino Zijdel says:

    I hope ‘layout’ refers to the GUI and not to the CSS layout model which is still badly broken in some places, not to mention several new bugs introduced by the changes in IE7 and which will require new CSS hacks – more a step backwards than forwards.

    Some examples from the top of my head (I’m still busy creating other testcases):

    http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/ie7beta/css_relative_1.html

    http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/ie7beta/css_relative_2.html

    I’m also surprised MS doesn’t seem to have found some of these bugs themselves since they are pretty obvious and some even well known like the broken z-index implementation ( http://therealcrisp.xs4all.nl/ie7beta/css_zindex.html ). Or perhaps MS doesn’t care since developers are already used to hack around IE’s bugs?

  23. alexander says:

    good to see some progress, after 5 years. But still you have much work ahead of you.

  24. hAl says:

    Is IE7b2 preview vunerable for the CreateTextRange() vunerability ?

  25. Really good stuff guys, congratulations for including the Web Standards guys in the process.

    When I first read the article title, it made my heart freeze, but you explained well that it is not an IE7 specific thing. I imagine you might have had quite a few people ranting about it thus the explanation.

    Should I politely remind you that for 5 years we have been producing great-looking sites which IE was not able to render properly.

    Although I understand you guys have to do your marketing, please also understand that the audience you are targeting this message to knows that "Making your site look great in IE7" is what it is, a marketing distortion of the reality and still spreads the idea of browser-specific design, the most realistic perhaps could have been ‘IE7 renders great looking sites’, ‘IE7, keeping your site great looking’ or whatever inverts the focus from the quality of sites to the quality of the browser, which has been the real issue all these years.

    It is not only me who believes that if a title needs to be explained, that is because it was not a good one in first place.

    Nevertheless, congratulations for your team’s (personal) hard work, I am happy to see you are striving to get to the level of the other browsers in the market.

    Regards,

    Luis de la Orden Morais

    Editor – Webalorixá Magazine (in Portuguese only)

    http://www.webalorixa.net

  26. Luiz says:

    Offsubject, but worth mentioning…

    Reset zoom advanced setting is listed in 2 places: Accessibility and browsing.

    Some popups still set focus to the newly poped tab.

    IE still steals focus when webpages are loading.. this is TOO annoying… Please make it stop!  😐

    Again, I gotta say… great work on IE7!!

  27. shane says:

    Right click the toolbar, there is a "Lock the toolbars" menu item.

    Click the "Tools" button on the new toolbar thing, select "Toolbars", there is a "Lock position" menu item, which is seperate from the one above.

    Select "Tools" on the classic menu, it doesnt have any of these options.

    All this is terribly inconsistant.

  28. Doug Wright says:

    Why don’t you post your screenshots as PNGs? You’d get better quality that way as well.

    Your ‘layout-complete, max-width supporting build’ doesn’t support max-width on images – please fix this before beta2? Supporting max-width on images shouldn’t break anything else…

  29. k says:

    I believe implementing images which are not backgrounds as backgrounds is semantically wrong.

    Problems it may cause include lack of alternative text and problems with accessible user style sheets.

  30. Thomas Tallyce says:

    Interesting that your own screenshots include the standard File,Edit,View.. toolbar. :)

  31. Jevon says:

    "The good news is that we are in the progress of building up a public bug database where you can submit your issues, track their progress and see when we internally fix an issue – Al is going to post about this soon."

    Why the desire/insistence on recreating the wheel every time? What’s wrong with http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/productfeedback/default.aspx ? Given, it’s "MSDN" but other groups such as SQL Server and MOM are using it to great effect. It’s a powerful system, easy to use, and is available now, without having to struggle through X buggy versions of a "custom built by IE team" system.

  32. Bob says:

    Why is the Menu Bar located under the address bar?  That makes no sense at all.

  33. olly says:

    This is great news, congrats.

    Now that you guys have resolved most of the CSS gripes which people had with IE 6, please, *please* consider releasing a standalone version of IE 7 which can easily be installed alongside IE 6 (or, I guess, vice versa).  

    Here’s hoping…

  34. IEBlog has screenshots.

  35. Xepol says:

    A screen shot is worth less than than the time it takes to create in photoshop.  If the code is good, toss it up, let us see it.

  36. So after years we finally get what we already have with other browsers out there: Full support of web standards, transparent PNGs, etc.? It’s about time! So finally web standards will spread even faster.

  37. game kid says:

    "So after years we finally get what we already have with other browsers out there: Full support of web standards, transparent PNGs, etc.? It’s about time! So finally web standards will spread even faster."

    Hey, anytime browsers are pulled to more usable heights, I’d take it.

    "Why is the Menu Bar located under the address bar?  That makes no sense at all."

    I like this bit of cleverness, though: right-click the menu bar and hide it.  Then press ALT and it reappears to serve you.  It’s useful for getting just a bit more browsing space.

  38. game kid says:

    I just noticed the Find dialog isn’t modal and window-blocking anymore.  Cool.

  39. Paul Schreiber says:

    It’s about time transparent PNGs make it in IE!

  40. Mark says:

    Well, they can say what they like, but it’s official – IE7 has the prettiest icon.

    And is it just me, or is the "e" actually smiling?

  41. rch says:

    > like everyone else, where’s the live working example?

    Most likely, it DOESN’T EXIST.

  42. Al Billings [MSFT] says:

    Jevon,

    What makes you think we’re rolling our own solution and recreating the wheel?

    The site that Visual Studio uses will be migrated to a new service during the next year. We’re going to start with the new service now. There will be a post shortly from me about it.

    – Al Billings [MSFT]

  43. @ Dao

    > Flash objects with audio can be heard even when they’re on divs set to display: none.

    >What has "display" to do with audio? This isn’t related to Flash but probably all objects. And I don’t consider this a bug.

    This signals that a flash object on a div set to display: none was requested from the server. If a div is set to display: none initially and the user leaves the page without ever doing anything to change the display of the div with the flash object then no bandwidth is wasted on requesting it. If a flash object is desired to in example play audio but not be seen then it’s div could have a lower z-index.

    The main point is that pages with content (any) that are on requested pages but not displayed will still be requested by IE. For example if you have visited 80 pages (+1 cookie counter per page) a hidden flash object will play EVERY time you visit a page (after 80 pages) on my site. The user HAS to click something in order to set the div to display: block. This not only wastes bandwidth it also confuses the hell out of the visitor.

    > Why is the Menu Bar located under the address bar? That makes no sense at all.

    Thank you Bob for pointing that out, I completely agree.

    While the progress of IE has been pretty good calling it quits on layout now is just simply going to force us to come up with additional hacks.

  44. ThomThom says:

    Regarding the bugs etc. Will there be updates to IE7 that addresses rendering bugs that doesn’t rely on Service Pack releases or new OS versions?

    A couple of days ago the news said that IE7 would not be part of the OS in XP, but would stillbe in Vista. If that’s true, why this difference?

  45. mike says:

    @hAl

    > Is IE7b2 preview vunerable for the CreateTextRange() vunerability ?

    Appearently not. Look here.

    http://secunia.com/advisories/18680/

  46. Markus [MSFT] says:

    For all the folks who were asking for the code. We are considering a "how to" document for our dev center. The code will be shown as part of that. Stay tuned.

    — Markus

  47. Xepol says:

    Markus -> That’s a big part of why we’re all asking.  Regardless of that the EU people think, code is the ultimate documentation.

  48. Alec says:

    The only way this would make it to the Garden is if IE6 was able to display it -but because it can’t, and most people will be using it for a long time even after IE7 comes out is still creates a huge problem for web developers. Microsoft should require the update to IE7 – otherwise so few people would be using it for so long it doesn’t help developers at all.

  49. iTech says:

    Personally I hope that IE7 would do a better job at servicing such a huge crowd like IE6 did. The success of Firefox is in part due to IE6’s inability to cope with malware.

    iTech @ http://itech.webwarp.net

  50. Michael K says:

    >>I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature

    You’re really looking forward to see what the design community will do with features that other browsers already have?  Why don’t you just load up one of those other browsers and take a look?

    >(on :hover) I can imagine that with this feature you are able to build very rich dynamic effects completely without touching javascript

    Yeah, I can imagine this too.  But I don’t have to rely on my imagination – I can just load up any one of the browsers that has had this feature for years and see it with my own eyes.

    I’m glad IE is finally joining the party, but pretending that these features are anything other than IE playing catch-up is just disingenuous.

  51. I’d like to thank the IE7 team for their hard work on bringing some needed improvements to their "aging" browser.  What took you so long? 😉

    I think once the adoption curve is met for IE7 (another year or two), we can finally count on people having a pretty standards compliant browser.  Then, I will hopefully lose less sleep to working around IE’s shortcomings. It looks good so far.

  52. EricLaw [MSFT] says:

    <<Why is the Menu Bar located under the address bar?  That makes no sense at all.>>

    It makes sense if you consider how Vista UI works.  But anyway, see http://blogs.msdn.com/tonyschr/archive/2006/01/31/521542.aspx

  53. Scrambled says:

    Well Tables don’t look too different cross-browser; The reason this design hasn’t been published anywhere is that its table based (not that the documentation is lacking, please prove me worng).

    Anyways the most important part of the statement (to me) is that the news that there will be an IE post IE7 (I keep hearing that now) lets hope its true, the main problem with it is thats stagnated not its problems with stds support( thought thats obv a problem too)

  54. vocoder says:

    transparent pngs and also transparent elements in css is already supported in IE.

  55. Mojo says:

    You say "transparent pngs and also transparent elements in css is already supported in IE."

    Yes and No. Just putting a alpha transparent png like you would a regular image doesn’t work without some ,*ahem* , hacking. So No it doesn’t really work like it should. IE supports it, that is apparent, but why they took so friggin’ long to implement it normally??? The design world is baffled. You can’t sit with a straight face and tell the world that IE is a standards compliant browser. Its years behind. What IE7 is doing now should have been done 4-5 years ago.

  56. Este post me ha confundido, no se si ya estar&#225;n…

  57. John Bokma says:

    It would be nice if people called W3C recommendations "recommendations", like W3C itself does, instead of "standards".

    There *is* a HTML standard, it’s called ISO HTML.

  58. blah blah says:

    >>I am really looking forward to see what the >>design community can pull off with this >>feature.

    Probably the same thing web designers have been doing for standards-based browsers for while now…

  59. Jon says:

    Classic MS ‘design’ there.

    Elegant? No.

    Inspiring? No.

    Over the top blue schemes and lots of clutter? Yes.

    This reminds me of that commercial that pokes fun at MS packaging by comparing to Apple’s packaging (and yes I know that video was MS produced).

  60. anphanax says:

    If it’s as simple as this:

    OPEN "regedit.exe".

    NAVIGATE TO "HKEY_CURRENT_USERSoftwareMicrosoftInternet ExplorerToolbarWebBrowser".

    ADD DWORD VALUE NAMED "ITBar7Position".

    SET ADDED VALUE TO 1.

    Why… OH WHY, isn’t there an option to move the menubar?

  61. sadad says:

    hey microsoft why does it take you 25 years to make a new browser. why cant the browser support css and go into the year 2006 plz

  62. Alex says:

    Doesn’t this feel like encouraging a child?

    "Wow, that *IS* a big blue scribble, Johnny.  Do you think you could make me a red one next?"

    :hover is great.  How about :before?  Can you make me a :before next?

    I’m not trying to be patronizing.  But IE has let us all down so badly for so long.  It’s the slow cousin that we try really hard to be nice to, but sometimes we just get too frustrated and we have to walk away.  

    But this isn’t kindergarten.  We only pretend to be patient with baby steps in IE because we have no other choice and at some level we’re afraid that if we aren’t encouraging, they’ll pick up their interweb and go home..  But that’s just stupid.  These folks are adults, and professionals.  Let’s hold them to that standard.

    Fix yer damn web browser and stop inflicting needless problems on hundreds of millions of people.  "We don’t care enough" isn’t a good enough answer.

    Aren’t you glad you prarie dogged up in the cold months between "silence because there was no one to complain to" and "a shipping product that shuts them all up"?  :-)

    Please, shut us up!!  We are waiting on your every move.

    Ever loyal,

    the web

  63. Victor says:

    For all those asking where the live example is, you seem to be missing a piece of info.

    It was stated near the begining… in the BROWSER version THEY were DEMOING, full, real "Alpha Transparency" was supported.

    For everyone that has the latest beta, already knows that IT DOES NOT SUPPORT __FULL__ ALPHA TRANSPARENCY (yet)

    Load up a proper, PNG image, with blended transparency over a complex background… and you see that they only support simplistic transparency ATM.

    That said, the screen shots do look way cool.

    Welcome to the 19th Century Microsoft.  Where do you want to go tomorrow?  😉

  64. Kyle K says:

    Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard.

    You talk about the community as if you’ve opened some kind of golen gate for them and are going to lead them to the garden of eden.

    We’ve been sneaking over the fence for years.

    All these cool "new" features still aren’t going to be usable. They still aren’t going to be widely used on new pages because for the next few years devs are going to have to worry about supporting people that are still running IE5 and 6!!!! I personally won’t dare to use an alpha transparent PNG on a business-level site for at least 2 more years.

    So…IE loses, Firefox loses…everyone loses. Your mistakes will resonate for the foreseeable future.

  65. Mojo says:

    With a simple trick you CAN use transparent png’s… Believe it or not older IE browsers do *support* alpha transparency in an active x hack. Granted it is a hack, but it works quite well. As far as I know it works in IE 5.x and up…

    For example: http://blogs.msdn.com/dmassy/archive/2004/08/05/209428.aspx

    Even check out Lightbox: http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox/

    It works fine in IE. So don’t be scared to use transparent PNG’s!

  66. David says:

    How about you submit this to Zen Garden like every other respected designer? Oh wait, I know why, because it probably completly breaks your POS IE6 browser.

  67. Alpha Binary says:

    i really want one of that DevToolbar thingy 😀

    oh well, keep up the great work, ppl!

  68. Aslak says:

    To the guy who said IE had the prettiest icon: I don’t think it’s smiling, it’s laughing. Laughing at all of us web developers.

  69. Some guy says:

    Some people here should stop whining and start being constructive.

  70. Chris H says:

    <<It makes sense if you consider how Vista UI works.>>

    I can understand that from an MS point of view, but what about from a user point of view, a user who is using Windows XP, and not Vista?

    Personally, I feel the location of the file menu bar looks out-of-place.

    From the point of view of someone who’s used XP for a long while, and seen every other app be consistent with the File menu, I still feel it’s rightful place is at the very top.

    Also, I tried out the link provied to the other blog entry, but found that it didn’t work. Has this option been removed?

  71. Johnny says:

    Didn’t apple copyright the aqua look? And that bit at the top… very Mac-ish. Microsoft up to it’s old  tricks. Why innovate when you can copy?

  72. Shane Perran says:

    Great Job Guys! Wish I could have been there to see some of the Demo’s.

    It’s awesome to see you guys are really listening, and really making huge strides in a positive direction to create a better overall online experience via standards.

    Keeping this mindset I have no doubt that the future is incredibly bright for Internet Explorer.

  73. Xepol says:

    The second beta 2 preview is a horrible step backwards in stability.  From not being able to play my eclipse game at rubiks.com, to bizarre confusion in the toolbars (mine have become crosswired so I have to turn on/off my norton toolbar to affect my google toolbar and vice versa).. Don’t even suggest the devtoolbar, that’s just grayed out even with the new version.

    Pages flicker for no reason, weird things happen with the google toobar shifting left and right by mere pixels when you focus it…

    Suddenly my browser can’t even keep the forward/back history right.  Bugs range anywhere from forgetting where in the stack it is to ignoring that I just changed pages and pretending that it is still in that position in the forward/back list.

    Really strange STRANGE stuff.  I just can’t imagine where most of this stuff comes from B1 and B2P1 were very stable for me.

    Sure, the demo looks great (uh, say doesn’t it violate CSSZengarden’s first big rule which is ONLY modify the css, NOT the html?), but the browser is flakey as hell where it wasn’t previously.

  74. Dan Dillard says:

    I am with the many other people on here: If it works as you say it does, where is it on the zen garden site?

    "To prove that I ran the audience to a CSSZenGarden inspired demo" Why make it only an inspired demo? Couldn’t you have gone the full distance?

  75. Mike says:

    Honestly, hopefully this will be the release that makes IE less of a headache for web developers… How about we make PNGs work correctly…?

  76. rico says:

    if someone tells his parents he’s memorized the ABCs, it’s impressive at age 2, but not at age 20.  i don’t mean to sound like a jerk, but the other major browsers have done this stuff properly for years now.  what about SVG?  what about MathML?  what about the CSS2.1 properties that are still missing and the CSS3 properties that every other browser already supports?  will it be a 5 year wait for those too?

    you make it sound like we designers are finally "allowed" to use PNGs and fixed positioning now that IE has fixed (some of) its problems.  Dave Hyatt was fixing CSS bugs in Safari THE DAY AFTER the Acid2 test was released.

    i’m really glad that the standards support is improving – it makes my life easier, but when you’re the last one to cross the finish line, you don’t deserve a pat on the back.  let’s hope this is just the start of an commitment to the timely implementation of standard features.

  77. anonymouse says:

    Better late than never

  78. Richard says:

    *sigh*

    Developers are still haunted by the legacies of IE5. IE6 is going nowhere for a long while yet…Hurry up with this release. For the love of God hurry up. Only a monopoly could ever get away with such dreadful standards implementations and have not been pushed out of the browser market a long time ago.

  79. maiself says:

    "Some people here should stop whining and start being constructive."

    Not all of us are as good as <a href="http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/">Dean Edwards</a>, so we can’t make much more that cry when IE breaks our simple, valid  and perfectly-working-on-modern-browsers code. So after putting unnecesary hacks and/or obsolete code on your pretty work, you make 2 things: 1) wish that MS repairs IE and 2) try to convince everybody not to use IE.

    That is not constructive? Sorry, I didn’t know it was my own fault not having convinced Microsoft to be a good net citizen.

    But now MS makes the biggest browser upgrade in years! So? We should stop whining?

    MS has repaired some of the most horrible bugs and we are suposed to be very happy, but I am not, They did something better and I’m less upset that before, but it doesn’t arrive even to the minimun I expect from them. I would be very happy if the new IE had better Web standards support (specially CSS) than Firefox, Opera and Safari, but all the reviews say that it has not.

    I would be very happy if XHTML could be served as XML, but I think I must wait. What about SVG? unless I lost a chapter, nope. And (name it yourself)? Forget it.

    So, sorry. I am not going to say "Very well boys", I say "Too less and too late boys, back to work and this time do it right".

    It’s just a web browser, the standards are already set… it’s not that difficult for you, is it?

  80. Jim says:

    Hey Richard, how can they hurry up to please you and not ship until IE has pefect standards compliance like some people here want. How does IE please both you and them?

  81. What bugs me is that I don’t have access to the IE7 bug database (says so when I use passport login) despite being on the "Vista, Longhorn Server, and IE7" Beta.

  82. TCarnright says:

    Well, I *was* there to see the demo, and yes, it does work.  Of course it doesn’t work in IE6 – that was the point of the whole demo – to show how many broken elements in the past have now been brought up to standards.  We were also shown several screenshots of coded pages which failed in IE6 alongside the same shot succeeding in IE7.

    I think the point many posters are missing is that MS had acknowledged it’s failure to support standards in the past, and IE7 is the first monumental step toward support of standards.

    If someone was a bad person for the first 20 years of his life, then had a monumental change and became the epitome of a kind, loving, caring person – would you continue to throw stones at him?  Or would you help him in his road to success…

  83. Greg says:

    Broken images?

  84. ieblog says:

    The site is down for some reason. I’ve flagged it and we’ll see what we can do.

    – Al Billings [MSFT]

  85. Richard says:

    >>>Hey Richard, how can they hurry up to please you and not ship until IE has pefect standards compliance like some people here want. How does IE please both you and them?

    Hi Jim,

    This has been achieved by other browsers. I’m not asking for something that hasn’t already been accomplished years ago elsewhere. I base my expectancy on what I have already received as both a developer and internet user. There are products on the market that belittle Microsoft’s presently inferior offering and yet it still has a massive majority hold on the market. Microsoft’s browser is holding back progress and will continue to do so until they pull their fingers out and finally release something that meets the standards already being implemented and those that will be implemented for a long time into the future.

    I really don’t care which brand is at the top of my (and everyone elses) browser window so long as it’s not causing me hassle when I develop and browse sites. Unfortunately Explorer IS causing hassle, for the reasons I have outlined.

  86. streaky says:

    Looks excellent – although all you’ve done is prove why so many of us have been nagging for so long 😉

    Keep it comming :)

  87. Recently, Microsoft has published the Second Public Beta of the forthcomig and long awaiting &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie7/default.mspx&quot;&gt;Internet Explorer 7&lt;/a&gt;, addressed to developers and web developers to test

  88. Molly C says:

    Wow, Web Site Designing must be the profession with the highest percentage of cry-babies.  It’s funny, when Microsoft actually addresses the problems you guys have been crying about, you cry even more.

    Here are the facts:

    IE6 was stagnant for years, so obviously it fell behind in web standard compliance.

    But guess what, browsers like Firefox and Opera were in constant development for all that time, and they *still* aren’t fully compliant!

  89. Richard says:

    >>>Here are the facts:

    IE6 was stagnant for years, so obviously it fell behind in web standard compliance.

    The fact that it was stagnant for years is the core of the complaint. Re-labelling the complaint as a fact doesn’t do anything to answer it.

    How personally attacking people achieves anything is unclear – other than boosting your own efforts to feel important.

    All the complaints levelled against Explorer are very genuine. If complaints aren’t made about inferior products, it takes a lot longer to make any progress

  90. I posted a plea / question about IE7 in my post referred to in my link.  Rob Relyea suggested I post the question to the IE blog — sorry if this is the wrong place to ask the question:  Will the Vista delay effect IE7’s release?

    Thanks,

  91. A. Vindberg says:

    I there a list of unsolved CSS rendering bugs for IE7 as can be found for older IE at http://www.positioniseverything.net? I would like to see how close the IE7 team got to the W3 specs. Thanks,

    Anders

  92. TestMan says:

    The MIX06 version of IE has still a broken version of the CSS "fixed" position. Position of fixed div with right anchor (and auto on left) or bottom anchor are still not compliant with the spec and will cause IE7 users to have a bad look on our web site.

    There is still a big gap to fill toward CSS compat before IE7 is released IMHO, or you will have to fight agains a FF 2.0 that will be a big player. There you might lost the battle … or the war, remember netscape guys 😉

  93. Simp's says:

    Once IE7 is shipped will future minor releases and bug fixes be pushed to the user ?

  94. hAl says:

    @Richard

    "The fact that it was stagnant for years is the core of the complaint. Re-labelling the complaint as a fact doesn’t do anything to answer it."

    Complaining about events that have happened and cannot be changed anymore in the past won’t do any good either. Focussing on the now is good enough.

  95. Richard says:

    "Complaining about events that have happened and cannot be changed anymore in the past won’t do any good either. Focussing on the now is good enough."

    Thanks for that piece of wisdom. It’s not history yet – it is currently happening, hence the complaints. My complaint, if you read it, is the huge delay which is still ongoing

  96. Lawrence says:

    "The next feature I showed of was cool fading effects you can achieve through alpha transparent PNGs on scrolling the page. I expect that the visual richness on the web will drastically change once IE7 ships. I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature."

    I love how you’re talking as though this is a great revolutionary feature of IE, rather than a great revolutionary feature of someone else entirely that’s been around for years and that you’ve only just caught up with.

  97. IDN says:

    We need this piece of belated browser software out as soon as possible. The time to ship it is now. Don’t wait another three months.

  98. Charlie says:

    I love it how the most damning comments, those expressing the most frustration with Microsoft, have been removed from this page.

    Why?

  99. ieblog says:

    Charlie,

    The only comments that are deleted, with an occasional exception, are those that swear, are insulting, are spam or are some combination thereof. Occasionally, ones that are wildly off-topic are deleted as well but it is pretty rare for us to bother. We have a pretty liberal commenting policy as reading through the comments on our posts will show.

    What damning comment did you post that was deleted?

    – Al Billings [MSFT]

  100. ieblog says:

    IDN,

    We will ship IE when it is done. We haven’t even shipped the actual second Beta yet so it is a bit early to be calling for its release.

    Besides, we have just as many people telling us that they don’t care if they have to wait an extra six months as long as we add in <insert favorite feature here>.

    Which group is the one that we should listen to?

    Clearly, it is not cut and dry. We need to ship with our features at a high enough quality to have a good browser out there.

    – Al Billings [MSFT]

  101. IDN says:

    Delaying IE7 means millions of people can’t access IDN (International Domain Name) websites, and amounts to a rude ethnocentrism on the part of the Latin-character-set using team at Microsoft. The world’s non-English speaking majority is getting short changed in URL and Internet accessability using their native langauge, beause a big American software company can’t get together to release adequate support for IDNs. Note: IDNs have been available for 6 years. I call upon Microsoft to release an update to the existing IE to support IDNs, now.

  102. Drax says:

    I wonder if the website shown works the same in Opera, Safari and Firefox or not. If not, probably there lot of hacks, again.

    Why is there very little internalization in MS’s products?

    MS is one of the biggest Software companies in the world – and what? They don’t have enough money to allow disabled people access ICT well and people from other countries?

    I see that my PC (GNU/Linux) works out of the box (Gentoo this time) with _ANY_ language. I can see chinese, thai, and other characters which I don’t understand but you don’t have to waste time on making sure that somethin will work for you.

    And also, why are there tons of updates for windows? it’s a torchure. By the way, the Windows box i got really doesn’t have a valid license key, though bought it in a superstore and i can’t try out IE7. So what’s the thing – isn’t IE7 supposed to be free?

    Why do people *hate* < IE6 ? It’s because their _VALID_ (X)HTML and _VALID_ CSS doesn’t work. You’ve got to modify everything just because of your mistakes upon not following the standards and trying to make everyone follow… Just nasty =P

    By the way, is this IE7 going to have _NORMAL_ zoom, like in Opera. Not just a text zoom like in Gecko or IE? You get bigger text but objects, applets and images don’t increase at all. Opera is the best and it’s going to be the best. 😉

    I really loved the two screenshots but i guess they will be only for IE, as nobody’s posting links to the pages

  103. We held an Expert Zone Chat on IE yesterday. The transcript is already online at http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/transcripts/06_0413_ez_ie.mspx&amp;nbsp;…

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