MIX06 conference


The information published in this post is now out-of-date and one or more links are invalid.

—IEBlog Editor, 21 August 2012

I wanted to give a quick pointer to the conference Microsoft will be hosting in March in Las Vegas: MIX06, a “A 72-hour conversation between developers, designers and business professionals to explore high-fidelity commerce, content, media, services and security.”

Many IE team members will be there, myself included, and loads of other Microsoft teams involved in web technologies, including the Windows Presentation Foundation, the Atlas AJAX framework and Windows Live!. And yes, Bill Gates will be there too.

http://mix06.com/

- Chris Wilson

Comments (74)

  1. Anonymous says:

    IE team?!…. Hello?!….

    Sorry guys, its just that it’s been such a while since I’ve heard anything from you, I’m starting to wonder if any of you’re still there at all, lol.

    You are still here and blogging aren’t you?……

    Just kiding, but looking foward to hearing the next IE 7 related news. Thanks

  2. Anonymous says:

    Three weeks and not one word from Microsoft. This is too funny. What, you guys run out of distractions to blind us from the fact that you can’t pull it together? Is it going to be another Xbox release revisited? Way to keep us in touch with how it’s going. Great customer care.

  3. Anonymous says:

    Gee, maybe they’re busy working on IE7?

  4. Anonymous says:

    <echo>

    hello?

    </echo>

  5. Anonymous says:

    Addon Manager in xpsp2 is NOT enough!

    We want per site(domain) management.

    EX. ban AddOn F ON Domain M

    F is Flash mostly!!!

    We hate Make-CPU-Scream Flashes on some potal site!

  6. Anonymous says:

    Zach, we are both worlds apart; you’re a programmer, I’m a designer. In my world the programmer doesn’t touch the HTML untill I’m through with it, of course I will think about what the programmer has to do and make considerations.

    If I had to modify your example code do you think I’d know where to start? A few months ago I was working with a really lousy programmer who wanted to write his own HTML pages, program them and then expect me to come and make it look pretty.

    To this day, myself and a new programmer have been struggling to make changes to the web site, because all the ASP is hard coded into the HTML and is practically impossible to modify without rewriting most of it.

    I’m not saying you’re anything like that programmer, but when a designer is asked to make some changes to the web site they’re going to feel pretty useless when they see PHP/ASP ‘jumbled’ up inside all the HTML.

    As for Tables vs Divs (for layout), well everything I want to say is covered here http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

    BTW, I despise "echo"…

    ——

    <?

    $x=file("/somewhere/over/the/rainbow.whatever");

    ?>

    <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">

    <?

    for ($i=0;$i<count($x);$i++) {

    $a=explode("|",trim($x[$i]));

    ?>

    <tr>

    <td class="<?c".$b."?>"><?".$i."?></td>

    <?

    for ($b=0;$b<count($a);$b++) {

    ?>

    <td class="<?c".$b."?>"><?".$a[$b]."?></td>

    </tr>

    </table>

    ——

    I still don’t know what your code is supposed to do, but at least I can see the html now :)

    http://www.csszengarden.com is another reason why tables are really not necessary for layout.

  7. Anonymous says:

    >As far as the above talking about when they >release IE7 public beta – if its q2, its q2 – >better to be right than to be early.

    I’ll take one ticket to the "dog and pony show" for $100 Alex.

    It’s amazing, some applications already have it right. I won’t mention their names but they are being distributed with the Google Pack, Dell UK is shipping it and are starting a massive ad campaign.

    In a time where leadership is absent people won’t drink the sand because they are told to, they drink because they don’t know the difference.

    Guess whose filling the glasses. You can take one guess but they just hit critical mass and are now shooting for the stars.

    So yes they can keep pushing it back, stalling, and you can say whatever until they have it right, someone already does!

    Oh, and by the way, ask Netscape how this turned out.

  8. Anonymous says:

    You would think by now, MS would have learned.

    mix06 site, uses alt attributes for the images, without supplying a title attribute.

    Way to be "oh so Web 2.0"

    Oh, and while on the subject… since every decent browser has tabs now, can you get rid of the target="_blank" on all the links… its redundant now, if the user wants to open it in a new window, they can.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Look, it’s a firefox whiner already.

  10. Anonymous says:

    *SNORT*

    Thanks, Robert. Now I have to clean up the coffee I just snorted…

    -Chris

  11. Anonymous says:

    Robert, I didn’t think he was whining about Firefox one bit — if you would have listened, maybe you would have learned something about web development.

    This site barely passes transitional (missing some important elements) but it is a sincere attempt at modern design. Some areas are redundant (no need for a hide div on the content skip, why not apply just to the p itself), break tags are a waste of bandwidth and there’s no need for them (especially clear break tags), and a large case of divitis.

    But those are minor issues that could have been fixed easily — regardless, though, it is a sincere attempt at designing with standards, and I commend that. The developer has a few more things to learn, though — too bad you had it in Las Vegas, and not San Francisco, maybe we could have sat down and discussed how to improve these issues, and your marketing image.

  12. Anonymous says:

    I will note, that mix graphic is poor. Not a professional pixel pusher there.

  13. Anonymous says:

    Since when was this post about MS’s markup and design? Grow up guys and keep on topic :) Thanks for the info Chris.

  14. Anonymous says:

    The http://mix06.com site displayed fine and seemed to work in every browser I viewed it in. I usually don’t stick my head under the hood of my car unless somethings not working or running poorly.

  15. Anonymous says:

    However, the alt attribute is used exactly how it should be since the images there are visual representation of words.

    Do you need a tooltip to know that the image saying "The Facts" is actually an image saying "The Facts"? I don’t think so. You just need an alternative text saying "The Facts" if for whatever reason you can’t see the image.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Does anyone else find it difficult to read black text on a green background?

    Anyway, the statement: "As the web enters its second decade, the old barriers are blurring or breaking down completely." was quite ironic I thought, two decades is quite a long time and IE6 will probably stay with us for another decade at least.

    p.s. I hope IE7 doesn’t display ALT (ALTERNATE) attributes the same way it’s supposed to display TITLE attributes.

  17. Anonymous says:

    I cant still belive why u guys cant block this phishers and pharmers and this toolbar and ad activity’s i do have Final version (I mean the last full version) of IE7 but still its not that secure all those toolbars and stuff still playing with ie7 some ads

    still this page rendering thig is not faster than opera.

  18. Anonymous says:

    #1

    As previous said, the use of the alt attribute is perfect. Regarding the target="_blank"’s there are a couple of usefull things in Firefox that will overrule the attribute…

    For instance… hold down the ‘Control’ key when clicking on them, or even better. In Firefox 1.5 go:

    Edit -> Preferences -> Tabs -> ‘Force Links that open new windows to open in:’ set to ‘a new tab’

    and you are done… never a new window again..

    Does IE7 come with this feature?

  19. Anonymous says:

    Can someone get back to me on what "high-fidelity commerce, content, media, services and security" actually mean?

    Ta.

  20. Anonymous says:

    Does anybody know: is IE 7 going to support CSS tables (I mean, display property with values table, table-cell and so on)?

  21. Anonymous says:

    since i don’t know where else to put this…

    Please bring back the option that was in XP SP2 beta to Show Blocked Popup!! That was so freakin handy!!!!

  22. Anonymous says:

    >Can someone get back to me on what "high->fidelity commerce, content, media, services >and security" actually mean?

    >Ta.

    No – it would involve grasping the concept of language, which you obviously do not – or do, and are just being a firefox user and are attempting to point out that by the dictionary – the phrase doesnt work.

    Actually – it fits – you probably do not understand. So devoid of the possibility that something can be expressed in a unique and "non-standard" way, you probably really do not understand. Sucks to be you.

    Oh – the Venitian rocks :) – now if I can hit a royal between here and then .. I might have a thousand bucks.

  23. Anonymous says:

    > p.s. I hope IE7 doesn’t display ALT

    > (ALTERNATE) attributes the same way it’s

    > supposed to display TITLE attributes.

    Yes, how could they dare start doing something a non standard way in 1995, knowing full well that they needed to support that HTML 4 standard that would be relased just before the years flipped over to 2000

  24. Anonymous says:

    Thank you so much Zach. Going out of your way to say you don’t know what it means either. I’ll still be waiting for answers. Hopefully from someone working in a multi-billion dollar company that cares less about marketing buzzwords and more on results :)

    Firefox and Opera type of results. It must suck to be so low-fi.

    Regards,

    your friend Bruce

  25. Anonymous says:

    >Can someone get back to me on what "high->fidelity commerce, content, media, services >and security" actually mean?

    >Ta.

    >It must suck to be so low-fi.

    >Your friend Bruce

    I may be generalising a bit here, but why is it all the Firefox ‘we hate everything Microsoft does’ evangelical types on this blog all have to be so damn sarcastic.

    Can’t you just make mature comments, without resulting to all these childish pokes?

    Every post that is made has the same old rants in. Not only is it tiring to see the same old comments in EVERY post, but it’s becoming a bore.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Oh, and you’re not my friend. With an attitude like yours i’d be ashamed to have a friend like you.

  27. Anonymous says:

    > Firefox and Opera type of results. It must

    > suck to be so low-fi

    Erm, you mean 5% of market share they own? That results? :)

  28. Anonymous says:

    Ladies and gentlemen, it’s the holidays for many of us. Please let our overworked blog administrator take his vacation in peace.

    Personal attacks are not welcome in this space. There’s a big internet out there, and certainly better places for partisanship.

    Thanks, and happy holidays!

  29. Anonymous says:

    > "Erm, you mean 5% of market share they own? That results? :)"

    Sorry, but I couldn’t let this one slip away. Firefox has about 10% market share worldwide according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4406204.stm

    IE is apparently down to roughly 85%, and decreasing.

  30. Anonymous says:

    > Thank you so much Zach. Going out of your way to say you don’t know what it means either.

    To me personally, I would take it to mean the equiv of "in tune" in this context – which hopefully you can translate to how that would apply to something that doesnt, necessarily, play music.

    Its scary, that this is what the world is evolving into. By the book, and only the book – and if its not in the standard – then its wrong, doesnt matter if it works or not – its illegal – you cant do that.

    Think I will go make some completely standard, boring webpages – then save them like, as standardized by the W3C years ago, a web archive. Of course, you would have to use a standard compliant browser like IE to be able to see them. Though I think you can get one of those hacks for Firefox, if their last release didnt break it.

  31. Anonymous says:

    > *SNORT*

    >

    > Thanks, Robert. Now I have to clean up the coffee I just snorted…

    >

    >-Chris

    If you guys keep laughing at your customers problems, then pretty soon you won’t have any customers left.

  32. Anonymous says:

    > If you guys keep laughing at your customers

    > problems, then pretty soon you won’t have any

    > customers left.

    Yours and savvyDev problems sound personal. Very personal. Microsft can not help you with your personal problems. You should seek helps.

  33. Anonymous says:

    > Yours and savvyDev problems sound personal. Very personal.

    Personally, I am deploying a Windows XP build for a client companywide, with a six year old browser. They are waiting to see IE7 first before they make the decision whether to switch or not. Many of my peers are also seeing the same wait & see attitude at their clients.

    Why is it that anyone who criticizes IE is immediately branded a whiner, fanboy, or some other derogatory term, and never acknowledged for what they are, a customer?

  34. Anonymous says:

    > Why is it that anyone who criticizes IE is

    > immediately branded a whiner, fanboy, or

    > some other derogatory term, and never

    > acknowledged for what they are, a customer?

    The original post and subsequent posts were criticizing http://mix06.com/, not IE. It was not criticizm from a customer.

    I have Firefox spread out on my network. I am only watching this site for personal interest. I criticize all the time. I rarely if ever been branded a whiner, fanboy, or anything else. There’s constuctive criticism and then there is the derogatory tone which many anti peeps post with. Constructive criticism is most always well received, the opposite may not be.

  35. Anonymous says:

    >> *SNORT*

    >>

    >> Thanks, Robert. Now I have to clean up the coffee I just snorted…

    >>

    >>-Chris

    >If you guys keep laughing at your customers problems, then pretty soon you won’t have any customers left.

    I’m pretty sure Chris was just making the point that Robert’s comment would start off yet more bickering.

  36. Anonymous says:

    >Why is it that anyone who criticizes IE is immediately branded a whiner, fanboy, or some other derogatory term, and never acknowledged for what they are, a customer?

    Because 9 times out of 10 (read: not all, but most) they are whiners or fanboys.

    I acknowledge you are probably not, but we get far too many people who seem to criticise IE purely because it’s Microsoft. Yet if Firefox suffered the same issue, it would be okay.

    Take the IE7 feed icon. Comment after comment saying Microsoft’s icons are no good, why not use Firefox’s? Then they do, and all we read is "ripping off Firefox… can’t you do anything original".

    I know many of you out there do have genuine IE quibbles, but I personally am always wary of thos particular type of ‘Firefox fanboy’.

  37. PatriotB says:

    "Personally, I am deploying a Windows XP build for a client companywide, with a six year old browser."

    Which six-year-old browser? Netscape 4.7x?

    Seriously though, XP was released in October 2001, which would make its version of IE6 4.25 years old. Let’s not round that up to 6 for effect–those extra 1.75 are quite a bit in internet time.

    Of course, 1.75 years in internet time is *nothing* like the 4.25 years in internet time. It definitely is time to get IE7 out there. And to commit to have IE releases much more frequently.

  38. Anonymous says:

    I might be another Firefox user.. but not a whiner..

    arguing about MS mark-up.. useless.. this leads us to nowhere. the more or less 4.25 years are much more important in my eyes! I agree with PatriotB. Yes there should be more updates.. not GUI updates, core updates! So that at least the browser engine is up to date. This is something you can see when watching the Mozilla Suite. Beginning in versions below 1.0 (this is the one I started).. the look never changed. Although they always updated the core; there were just minor updates for the GUI. Like for Internet Explorer 4 to 6… 6 has nicer buttons.. other menus? And for the rest.. it looks very much the same… of course, IE 7 needs tabbed browsing which means a big GUI update.. but once it is out.. why not 7.01 and 7.02 and so on.. core updates! Now we support position:fixed in 7.01, then another CSS code in 7.02… why not?

    To savvyDev: great post, everybody waited for that. What do you wanna tell us? HURRAY, I am a web developer I know target="_blank" . I guess there are much more web developers here.

    And probably everyone here already used Firefox or Opera… I personally try to check my mark-up with as many browsers as possible.. meaning Firefox (+old Mozilla version), Opera (also old ones), Internet Explorer (I check down to version 4… I have many IEs on one system – this is unsupported but it is the best thing you can do to check your mark-up) and Konqueror (I unfortunately do not have a Mac). And I guess that many serious developers have their little browser collection. And I guess http://mix06.com/ has also been tested in other browsers… so stop "cooling" around ("cooling"="I know [insert useless HTML/CSS/JavaScript/XML/XSL/WML/SVG] here, I am cooler than all of you").

    I know this is already off-topic… but if any developer of Microsoft listens to the demands of web-developers, I now try to make someone listen my personal wishes for Internet Explorer 7:

    -Support for position:fixed . The Mac-Version did support this properly. It is really hard to define a work-around with @media screen to define the scroll area, though it works.

    -Better support for background-position . Accordng to the CSS 2.1 the background-position is dependent on background-repeat… if the background repeats.. then it is reletive to the element you use the background for. If it does not repeat: then the position is absolute.. it is possible to do really nice layouts by putting many fixed position backgrounds over each other.

    Is there any address.. be it e-mail or anything where I can write my personal wishes for Internet Explorer 7 to?

  39. Anonymous says:

    Well, I was using Firefox browser more for the tabs, before internet explorer 7.0 beta 1 appeared, I am testing and it works perfectly for me,I think Finallt the monster "microsoft" woke up and learned that nothing is 100% perfect/secure is hard to reach the top but harder to keep a company in the top.

    Theres a feature I like from firefox and is the search feature, while you write it searchs.

    I am only Using IE7 at the moment I uninstalled firefox. Good Work IE7 developers keep going that way.

    A suggestion, can you guys develope a little more the favorites for RSS feeds in this case, I think it would be handy to automactly add rss feeds to favorite (to an specific section or folder).

    Happy new year!!

  40. Anonymous says:

    I have been coming to this blog for along time now and have never felt the urge to post.

    All I have seen for the advent of IE is-

    Blah, Distraction, Blah, Delay, Blah, Blah, Distraction, Delay, Blah, Delay, Blah, Blah.

    Get off it already Microsoft.

  41. Anonymous says:

    >I have been coming to this blog for along time now and have never felt the urge to post.

    >All I have seen for the advent of IE is-

    >Blah, Distraction, Blah, Delay, Blah, Blah, Distraction, Delay, Blah, Delay, Blah, Blah.

    >Get off it already Microsoft.

    Blah = information some of us actually find interesting.

    Distraction = more information some of us find interesting.

    Delay = Microsoft aren’t going to release a rushed and incomplete product (if they did i’m sure you’d be first in line to complain).

    For goodness sake – if you don’t like the Blog, don’t read it.

  42. Anonymous says:

    Um, first off you don’t know me. Second, I am for Microsoft on this. Third, how many years to you need? Forth, have you even read the headlines? These are just a few.

    "Network Managers Flee IE"

    "Firefox revels in IE7 victory"

    "Shipping Firefox on New PCs"

    "Internet Explorer Sucks"

    Good luck but with that attitude and consumer concern, you’ll need a lot more.

  43. Anonymous says:

    I used to hate MS, but now I’m growing to like it more and more each day. That’s mainly because of this blog, particularly the whiney, irrelevant, criticisms made by people with no imagination.

    Knock ‘em dead, you have my blessing.

  44. Anonymous says:

    >I used to hate MS, but now I’m growing to like

    >it more and more each day. That’s mainly

    >because of this blog, particularly the

    >whiney, irrelevant, criticisms made by people

    >with no imagination.

    While I never can say I hated MS, I can say that I am more on their side now than I was in the past – for the same reason, though it was from everywhere else on the net that I would go and see firefox users talking down to anybody and everybody that IE – telling them how stupid they are. I was so turned off to anything Mozilla – before I even downloaded the browser the first time – sad – because I want to say it is not even Mozilla’s fault, and yet at the same time – yes it is – because thats the environment they cultavted for their grass roots promotion campaign they undertook, and I have never really seen much by them to try to curtail the predominant vocal attitude of Firefox users on the net.

    In reality – I dont care about MS, any more than they care about me. I think most MS "supporters" probably fit somewhere in line with that. Yes, we would have loved png transparency years ago, amongst other things – but we are going to just get the job done, with the tools that we have, versus trying to get the job done with tools that someone has written about, but we dont have – and then complain that it doesnt work when it doesnt work. Heck, I am willing to bet, most that have no problem with IE have never even read about the tools that we dont have, cause – who cares – we dont have them – I for one, nor anyone else I dare say, have not mastered every single one of the tools we already have.

    IE is still the most powerful browser available today, and thats a sad thing to say when that browser is almost five years old. CSS improvements are nice, but they are strictly lateral – its just another, maybe easier, but just another way to do the same thing you can already do somehow with the tools that existed before. IE has things no one uses – for one MHTs – which in my opinon eliminate the need for PDFs, and is a long time Web Standard. HTA’s, which if anyone bothered to look at them – completely wipes away that barrier between web designers/programmers from being able to build desktop applications. ActiveX – for all thats ever been said about it – ActiveX is extremely secure – maybe the component itself is insecure, or the settings in IE are not secure – but ActiveX is secure – in fact, I wanted the ability to be able to run PHP straight in the browser – but immediately dismissed phpactivescript because it is the worse nightmare of all when it comes to security in a browser – ended up building what I wanted as a little ActiveX object – which gave me the flexability to lock it down and keep it from becoming a security nightmare when it gets deployed with my app – but yet allows me to use it when ever, and where ever I want.

    Right now Microsoft makes a pretty good hammer – and they also know that if someone comes along and makes a better hammer that does everything theirs does, better – they are in trouble – I would switch in a heartbeat, so would most MS "supporters." That has not happened yet – Firefox is a nice browser, IE is a nice platform.

  45. Anonymous says:

    WPF is a web technology now? I thought it was for rich client apps.

  46. Anonymous says:

    I was happy I could put many posts on a MSDN Ladybug – a place to comment on VS2005 bugs and improvement suggestions. I installed the IE7B1 today and I feel a need to post some complaints and suggestions, but I can not find any appropriate place. Is there something like MSDN Ladybug?

  47. Anonymous says:

    I’am on dial-up and internet explorer is slow! I think its time for a new IE team.

    Firefox is on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  48. Anonymous says:

    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/12/03/google_desktop_vuln/

    It’s nice to see Microsoft and Google’s respective technologies working in tandem – but not so nice to see it used to expose data on your own hard disk to a malicious website operator.

    Security researcher Matan Gillon has published a proof-of-concept flaw that exploits Google Desktop, the search software that runs on a local PC, and Internet Explorer 6.

    The principal culprit, once again, is Microsoft’s lax and inconsistent implementation of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) in Internet Explorer. A web site can inject code into a page which allows it to execute on a remote machine.

    "All an attacker has to do is lure a user to a malicious web page. Thousands of web sites can be exploited and there isn’t a simple solution against this attack at least until IE is fixed. That means millions of IE users are affected by this design flaw," writes Gillon.

    Opera and FireFox users are safe.

    However this particular flaw wouldn’t have been possible without careless programming by Google, which amazingly, fails to obey the Google Desktop security model on its own site.

    Gillon discovered that on certain pages, such as Google News, it was easy to extract the security key that the local copy of Google Desktop needs to permit queries to be executed.

    "This feature has been in IE at least since IE 6 came out," writes a sarcastic Slashdot member.

    "That means Microsoft is again leading the field when it comes to AJAX and Web2.0 products."

    The weight of responsibility for this flaw falls on Microsoft. But Google shares some blame too, for failing to take the integrity of your personal data seriously.

    ——

    Another reason to update IE6 CSS support instead of abandoning it in the past. What’s so difficult about upgrading the CSS support in IE6?

  49. Anonymous says:

    The Google Desktop Search bug is a bug in the JScript object model, not CSS.

  50. Anonymous says:

    Well, I for one am glad they are doing /something/ instead of letting the browser fall through the cracks. When Netscape 4.7 was the base for which you built your web page and IE was ahead you had to develop for Netscape which was a pain. Since IE crushed Netscape, it has become the browser for end users who don’t know or care about web standards.

    I talked to my brother-in-law about Firefox and he said, "Why should I care, IE works just fine with SP2." I told him about the standards, his reply, "So?" I told him about the security, his reply, "I don’t use the Web enough or go to sites that would exploit me."

    These in the 85% keep web developers away from doing really awesome CSS sites, and keep JavaScript development in the stone ages. I want support CSS 3 now, although Firefox also has very limited support for CSS 3 also, so no problem there. I’m tired of having to do three different JavaScript coding blocks and doing work arounds for browsers. That is the reason for standards, to make it easier on the developer.

    All the end users care about is if it displays correctly and if it doesn’t then it is the developers fault. I used to not even care about IE, when my sites were only viewed by one person (which was me), but I’m now developing sites for IE and I have to fall back to using tables and very basic CSS 1.0. I don’t like spending three days trying to build workarounds for IE, when it works great the first time in other browsers.

    Do you know how hard it is to give an two columns absolute positions and then give the one near the right edge a percentage? That is hell, my friend, when you can supply right: 0px and width: 100% and Mozilla/Firefox works just fine. I just use tables (which I hate) to keep from pulling my hair out.

    Security and Tabs are fine, but if it took a year to do just that and add a few CSS features and fix the bugs, then I’ll be sore. Somewhat happy, but sore.

    I also don’t think that hate should be put on the IE developers, I would be giving them hugs and kisses for the work they are trying to do. I’m not falling to the dark side either, because I’ll probably never use IE, unless it totally gave support for SVG, XForms, Web Forms 2.0, XHTML 2.0, and CSS 3.0 before Firefox 3 did, which could be possible if they like started develop on the features three years ago. Who knows, if Microsoft gave the development team more developers, they could pull it off before 2007.

    The Mix ’06 site did give me a laugh or two. IE and innovation are oxymorons as of now, but I hope and pray that they stay true to the form and not disband the IE team after IE 7. I would hate Microsoft forever if they did… even if I did go to the dark side for Windows Vista (which is totally awesome, but I’m not looking forward to the price tag).

    Oh, since when did Web Designers conform to standards anyway? I sure don’t, I have other things to worry about when the most popular browser doesn’t either. I was able to convert my sister to Firefox and I’m pretty happy about that.

  51. Anonymous says:

    Happy New Year Everyone!

  52. Anonymous says:

    Filthy money grubbers try to exploit simple Chinese people with rapacious technologies.

    A number of converged network communications projects are expected to move forward in China this year — with wired and wireless elements — spanning from Shanghai to Beijing, experts tell United Press International’s Networking.

    One of the biggest networking projects is China’s landmark west-east gas pipeline project (WEPP), which has selected an IP-based converged networking solution from Nortel to power voice and multimedia communications, both wired and wireless, along its 4,200-kilometer route. Operated by PetroChina Company Ltd., a subsidiary of the state-owned China National Petroleum Corp. By Gene Koprowski

  53. Anonymous says:

    > That is the reason for standards, to make it easier on the developer.

    Ah – but you see – the standards are what caused the problem. You can not standardize something in such a way that it makes something as big IE non-standard compliant based on behavior IE had before the standard was made. That right there is what caused the problem – for instance – the object tag – it became a spoken, thought of idea (from what I have found historical on the web about it) – a matter of weeks before IE3 (I believe) was released, using the object tag another way. Does the W3C modify something that at this time is not even a working model, but just a spoke decided on idea – no – they go ahead, use the object tag – and put in specifics to it that makes IE non-compliant. Thats the W3Cs fault – not Microsoft. That leaves Microsoft in a lurch, because they can not break how it works already – as that would cause huge problems, particularly with the Corporations that have Intranets that have already put the object tag to use.

    > Do you know how hard it is to give an two columns absolute positions and then give the one near the right edge a percentage? That

    > is hell, my friend, when you can supply right: 0px and width: 100% and Mozilla/Firefox works just fine.

    > I just use tables (which I hate) to keep from pulling my hair out.

    That would be your problem – you admit you can do the job easy enough – you just dont want to do it that way. Who cares – what user can tell the difference between a table and a div? I sure can not tell the difference between a table and a div – I might be able to guess only if the table has a border on it (and the cells have borders) – but I could not know for sure even then – and I would have no way in the world of being able to tell if there was not a border or the like to lead me to an educated guess. Personally – I love the way the IE does Tables – I love being able to just say – I want this 150px, this 100px, and this 100% – which gives me the rest of the space – in IE – makes perfect sense –

  54. Anonymous says:

    > Thats the W3Cs fault – not Microsoft. That leaves Microsoft in a lurch,

    > because they can not break how it works already – as that would

    > cause huge problems, particularly with the Corporations that

    >have Intranets that have already put the object tag to use.

    The is the whole problem now isn’t? It is also the reason why the IE 7 team doesn’t want to add XHTML support. I am very interested in IE 7 development. Since I only started developing web sites around 1999 with IE 4, I don’t know the full history or the browser wars.

    That doesn’t really matter, to say that development and evolution can’t progress because of the old deprecated still needs to work they way it used too. That should be up to the DOCTYPE and not the browser. Although, you would just have to guess if a doctype doesn’t exist.

    > Personally – I love the way the IE does Tables –

    > I love being able to just say

    >- I want this 150px, this 100px, and this 100% –

    > which gives me the rest of the space – in IE – makes perfect sense –

    It makes perfect sense in IE, because you can’t do that with a style sheet using DIV or SPAN tags. If the Box support didn’t go off the page, showing the scroll bar for empty space, then you could use style sheets and not Tables. The way I worked around this was to use JavaScript (and hoped the viewer enabled it) to resize the width for IE. A lot of stuff that just works in other browsers, you need JavaScript to do the same thing in IE.

    Tables don’t look pretty and take a lot of space. Why should I have to use three tags (not including the end tags) to do something when I can just use one? Why should I have to put tables in a table to create a complex design to support IE? Now, I will admit that I’m not an expert with CSS, but why should I be?

    IE is halting education progress in CSS, HTML, and complex designs. While I did spend the time to find a workaround, so I wouldn’t have to use tables, what about the others that won’t? Are they to just not use advanced CSS techniques because IE doesn’t. For a novice that wants to learn, they can only pick one browser to support.

    I would like to bit into CSS 3, but with the limited support in browsers it would be pointless. Although, it woudn’t in a test environment.

    ————–

    I’m just hoping that Microsoft continues development even after IE 7 is finished. I doubt that a lot of people is going to even download IE 7, it is my prediction based on how many people still visit my sites using IE 5 and 5.5, which I won’t and don’t support. It may take a year before it IE 7 gains a majority share in IE browsers. Even more so, if it takes any longer for MS Vista to come out. So even after IE 7 does come out, I’m still left with supporting IE 6, since there are only small differences with IE 6 and IE 7. MIX06 does give me a small amount of hope that development will continue depending on how well it goes in March.

    ———————

    In response to an end user caring whether or not a DIV or table is used, an end user doesn’t care. I care how clean my markup is, because it is easier and quicker or me to write it. When you combine two or more technologies (Server Side and/or Client-Side scripting), it gets a little difficult telling what is what and impossiblely hard for anyone else trying to figure out what is happening and where. I have already stated that an end user looking at a site only cares if the site works or not.

  55. Anonymous says:

    I look forward to the release of IE7. Hopefully it does support web standards. I really hate Firefox, it loads real slow and it sucks. I am sure the IE team can come up with a better product.

    - MENJ

    http://www.menj.org

  56. Anonymous says:

    "Who cares – what user can tell the difference between a table and a div?"

    It makes a big difference in overall loading time, site maintenance and troubleshooting.

    This website has some explainations about tables and other layout techniques: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

  57. Anonymous says:

    > SantosJ

    This will only work in IE – but since you stated that is where your problem is – this should fix it, or lead you into the direction of fixing it easy enough

    <style>

    #d1 { position: absolute; width: 250px; height: 500px; left: 10px; top: 15px;background-color:maroon }

    #d2 { position: absolute; width: 150px; height: 500px; left: expression(d1.offsetWidth+20); top: 15px;background-color:green }

    #d3 { position: absolute; height: 500px; left: expression(d1.offsetWidth+d2.offsetWidth+30); width: expression(document.body.offsetWidth-(d1.offsetWidth+d2.offsetWidth+60));top: 15px; background-color:navy }

    </style>

    <div id="d1">&nbsp;</div>

    <div id="d2">&nbsp;</div>

    <div id="d3">&nbsp;</div>

    > Ron

    I am going to disagree with the maintenance and troubleshooting – as I find

    echo "<tr><td>xyz</td><td>abc</td><td>etc</td></tr>";

    printed out over thirty or fourty rows easier to do than to position, what 120 divs? No thanks. If I want it to stay static – then I use a table – now if I wanted it to be fluid, and say it didnt matter if I had three or four columns – than I am going to use a div or a span, floated.

    As far as loading speed – you are correct – though I have to admit – if you can tell the difference in loading speed between a properly built page that is not overloaded that is tableless, and one that is full of properly made tables – if you can actually tell the difference – you should go down and talk to the people that run the Olympics – they could probalby use you to time the 100, since you would probably be more accurate than whatever they got now.

  58. Anonymous says:

    Since there isn’t a mechanism to post an original query to Microsoft on this Blog,

    I’m starting a new thread of sorts here.

    For anyone wanting to follow up on this, please flag with:

    Re:[New Thread]

    For easy navigation.

    Okay, so here’s the thing. We are all anxiously awaiting the public Beta of IE7, and thus the Final release of IE7.

    I think it is really important for Microsoft to understand, that they need to get this out ASAP (I’m about to explain why).

    The problem is, that with IE7 being capable of matching most of the Web 2.0 Developer needs etc. Developers (*3) are going to start pushing out lots of new exciting projects, because finally IE will support it.

    The snag, is that there will still be many (e.g. Win2k, ME) users that can’t get IE7, and many WinXP users that won’t get IE7, which of course means that Developers (*3) are *forced* to maintain backwards compatibility for the next (X) months/years.

    What I want to know, is when does Microsoft plan to release IE8, therefore deprecating IE6 completely, because as I see it, it will *only* be then, when Microsoft can compete with the likes of the other Modern Browsers on a 1:1 basis.

    Right now, the *lock-in* with the OS, that exists ATM (not even going to start that one, we all know the truth here), is actually hampering the success of the IE Browser.

    Once IE7 is out the door, new, better Web Apps will be thrust into the public mainstream… users that can’t or won’t upgrade to IE7, will jump ship to the obvious alternative.

    My Final thought. (Jerry!, Jerry!,… oh but I digress)

    Will there be an option, for IE7, to download a version, without Active-X? If this was presented as an option (even if undesired by MS) I think Microsoft would stand to gain/maintain market share, for those in the "won’t" upgrade category, in fear of the dreaded Active-X security issues. (Yes, I’m painfully aware that in IE7, this *shouldn’t* be a problem, but I’m betting the odds in Vegas aren’t with you on this one)

  59. Anonymous says:

    Zach, I don’t know why you would echo a line of HTML, seems a bit impractical to me.

    Anyway, it’s completely fine to use a table to display tabular data, however for a general webpage layout it’s so damn easy to create four divs and stick them wherever and however you want on a page. It’s also easier to maintain and troubleshoot because there’s a lot less markup code to sort through.

    By the way, I believe most internet users do notice minute differences in loading times, and every bit of extra speed makes a difference for the user’s experience.

  60. Anonymous says:

    OMG are you serious with that speech tonight?

    Put out friggin’ IE7 already.

  61. jackofdiamonds says:

    this is a test comment

  62. Anonymous says:

    We are only 6 days into the year and your already pushing IE7 back to Q2? You guys really can’t do anything can you?

    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28807

  63. Anonymous says:

    I wouldn’t trust anyone who wrote an article as lousy as that.

  64. Anonymous says:

    > Zach, I don’t know why you would echo a line

    > of HTML, seems a bit impractical to me.

    Sorry Ron – figured you would know enough to understand.

    Here is this example better?

    <?

    $x=file("/somewhere/over/the/rainbow.whatever");

    echo "<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 border=0>";

    for ($i=0;$i<count($x);$i++) {

    $a=explode("|",trim($x[$i]));

    echo "<tr><td class=’c".$b."’>".$i."</td>";

    for ($b=0;$b<count($a);$b++) {

    echo "<td class=’c".$b."’>".$a[$b]."</td>";

    }

    echo "</tr>";

    }

    echo "</table>";

    ?>

    Probably has the usual error or two that with writing something off the cuff – and the example is a bit contrived, but works none the less for this purpose.

  65. Anonymous says:

    rendering engine

    open source development please

  66. Anonymous says:

    As far as the above talking about when they release IE7 public beta – if its q2, its q2 – better to be right than to be early.

    Though – I do agree with Ron this time – though I could read the really long article in the source

    "WE WERE indeed very shocked when we managed to see and feel the beta of Explorer 7.0.

    The key thing is tab browsing that looks and feels like you are using Firefox. Even the search button at the left hand side looks and fells like this free browser. Just as in Firefox you can ad search engines.

    There are some extra features as its easier to block the nasty sites and the RSS button is more accusable. Of course you can bookmark tabs as well. "

    They were shocked! I mean – it has tabs, that act like tabs – and a search box – in the same place its been since people started making alternate browsers – Jeez – neither of those are revolutionary from Moz either – really has not been any major changes in the browser UI since MyIE was abandoned five or six years ago.

    Oh – and just to mention – Ron that example above – I know you, and most will read that, and think, a data table – which would be only partially correct – you can feed in content blocks that way also, be it four by two, or two by four, or three by three, or whatever – and not have to make any adjustments. Thats why I like tables – they can make the job so much easier, if you let it.

  67. Anonymous says:

    > Will there be an option, for IE7,

    > to download a version, without Active-X?

    Now that, to be blunt, is a clueless question.

    You should just ask, is Microsoft going to ask Macromedia, Real Player, and a host of other companies to sue them for intentionally making it impossible for Flash, Real Player, etc to not work in the dominant browser on the market.

    I hardly see how that would gain them any market share.

    You need to understand – if you use windows, then you are using hundreds of "ActiveX" things every day – you can not just throw com out the window, and still have Windows as it is today – impossible.