I Love This Browser!


The information published in this post is now out-of-date.

—IEBlog Editor, 20 August 2012

I hopefully got your attention with the title of my first post.  And it is definitely true for me, as I have loved browsing the web since I started way back in the mid 90s, and I really love browsing with IE.  Yet, you may ask who I am or who we are that will be posting on this blog. 

I am Scott Stearns, the test manager for the Microsoft Internet Explorer team (as Dean says we will be pulling together full bios of people later).  The IE team as we usually say.  Some of us have our individual blogs today, but we also wanted to have one that was focused on what we do every day at work – make Internet Explorer the best way for browsing the web.  I realize that statement will cause some people to chuckle based on current press on security issues and perceived lack of innovation, but that is my job.  I have spend the better part of the last year working long hours and weekends to push IE forward with XP Service Pack 2, which is about increasing security while balancing application compatibility, but that is not all.   

If you want to try out the latest IE browser, I strongly encourage you to download and run the latest release candidate for XPSP2 Service Pack 2.  You can download it here.

Scott Stearns
Test Manager, IE

 

Comments (313)

  1. Anonymous says:

    I have doubts about whether IE has a bug that select object can not be covered with div object or other objects

  2. Anonymous says:

    Glad to hear that IE is not being ignored, but IE is still losing respect in general. I think you guys should release a "Version 7" to give the general public the impression that progress is being made and IE is not outdated. Several browsers have had more recent (and well publicized) releases since the last major IE release. I think the “new” IE is going to get lost in SP2, as far as perception goes. Release a version 7, for all your supported OSs, sometime after SP2 and rejuvenate the buzz…stop the attrition.

  3. Anonymous says:

    No.

    If it’s not good enough for you guys to slap with a RTM label, it’s not good enough for me to download and run on my machine.

    No offense. :)

  4. Anonymous says:

    It is nice to see this blog, Scott. Probably you’ll be bombarded with such kind of messages but anyway: when do you think this one will be fixed – http://www.literatecode.com/get/crashie.html? It has been reported and registered a year ago and still do the same in SP2 RC2. Just curious.

  5. Anonymous says:

    Well said up there, that IE is losing respect in the real world.. the fact that people are taking Firefox seriously still urks me, but they have some valid points.. MUCH more configurability, tabbed browsing, etc..

    And then I found MyIE2 (a wrapper for IE – http://www.myie2.com/) – which has tabbed browsing – which is key for these MSDN blogs for example – I have a "group" I open, that opens all the blogs I normally check – and opens them "tabbed" so I don’t have a zillion windows open. I can work my way through that "group" all within one container – much more ideal than individual browsers (for most cases).

    Point is, once I started looking around at browsers (I haven’t done that since the Browser Wars) – the things that are making the difference are the fru-fru usability things.

    And as a developer (for a long time and of all Microsoft languages) – let me say, that the heat you guys get for security flaws is bull. You guys are between a rock and a hard place. I work for a company where I write intranet apps and users are NEVER happy with the functionality. They want web apps that work like windows apps – and that’s only possible with powerful scripting and objects (like activex and applets).. but at the same time, Internet developers say you shouldn’t even ALLOW these things because they are too risky. You can’t win.

    Anyhow.. sucks to be you, but keep up the good work!! :-)

  6. Anonymous says:

    Solution to web apps that work like Windows Apps…

    Use .net, build a WinForms click once application that does everything and automatically updates from the web.

    All of the benefits of web central management and a real user interface instead of the crap that the web gives you.

    The future is smart clients, not Web based craplets.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Solution to web apps that work like Windows Apps…

    Use .net, build a WinForms click once application that does everything and automatically updates from the web.

    All of the benefits of web central management and a real user interface instead of the crap that the web gives you.

    The future is smart clients, not Web based craplets.

  8. Anonymous says:

    sorry for the double post… Firefox… gotta love it!

  9. Anonymous says:

    IE is a good idea but not the final ideal ,maybe smartclient is

  10. Anonymous says:

    "I realize that statement will cause some people to chuckle based on current press on security issues and perceived lack of innovation, but that is my job."

    It’s strange that someone’s job in the IE team is to cause us to chuckle instead of innovating in web browsing, but looking at IE state of the art, I think I understand…

  11. Anonymous says:

    Scott, with all due respect when your browser properly supports web standards like firefox, etc then those of us who where long time fans of IE may return to using it.

  12. Anonymous says:

    I loved IE at V3.0. V4.0 was a poor user experience. I loved V5.0 again. V6.0 and since have been OK, but nothing special. I certainly don’t love V6.0 – and I’m astonished that anyone loves V6.0 – the Courtney Love in a world of Kirsten Dunst’s.

  13. Anonymous says:

    "If you want to try out the latest IE browser, I strongly encourage you to download and run the latest release candidate for XPSP2 Service Pack 2."

    I strongly advise you to get over this boneheaded idiocy and release a new version of the browser that I can use in Win2K and 2K3.

    Just because IE’s (legitimately) a part of the OS does not justify this asinine approach to releasing updates.

  14. Anonymous says:

    As a web developer, I’m doing everything in my power to get people to switch away from Internet Explorer. This is because, when developing websites, I author to standards, it takes a few minutes to tweak things to get everything perfect in browsers like Firefox and Safari, and then ages to work around all of Internet Explorer’s bugs and shortcomings. The time to implement a decent XHTML Strict + CSS 2 design would be shortened by at least a third if Internet Explorer wasn’t so buggy. I have measured this personally across a number of projects.

    If a new version of Internet Explorer was available that didn’t screw up so damn much, not only would it make my life much easier, but I’d stop switching people away from it. The features of other browsers are just the "honey" that web developers use to get people to switchaway from IE. Right now, the only thing keeping many web developers from dropping Internet Explorer support completely is its market share. It’s the new Netscape 4.

    *Please* fix IE. Top of the list:

    1. CSS 2 bugs ("peekaboo", "guillotine", "3px jog", etc).

    2. CSS 2 tables.

    3. CSS 2 generated content.

    4. CSS 2 selectors.

    5. PNG alpha channel.

    CSS 2 is over six years old, and Microsoft have had employees in the CSS working group the whole time. PNG is almost eight years old and Microsoft promised PNG support for Internet Explorer 4.0. Given that Microsoft are the world’s biggest software company, it looks very much like standards are deliberately being sabotaged. Is it any wonder web developers are starting to get royally pissed off with Microsoft?

  15. Anonymous says:

    Sorry but your browser is not standard compliant, I’m Web developer to and that’s why I use (and I love) Firefox.

    Edit : Another CSS 2 bug, "hover" is not supported by IE !

  16. Anonymous says:

    A good start would be setting up Bugzilla, to get tot know precisely what bugs are around.

  17. Anonymous says:

    Gotta say that after using and switching to FireFox, IE really looks like a dog in comparison. Loads about 4 times slower than FireFox and it’s supposed to be part of the OS?! After using tabbed browsing I don’t think I could ever go back. Speed of page loading is insane, makes IE look like it’s running on a 386 or something. Plus, all this and then you have a huge amount of good, quality plugins and themes none of which seem to detriment the speed of the core browser like toolbars do to IE.

    Aside from the user benefits I mentioned above the standards support is simply great, it allows the web to be made the way it should be. Why can’t IE be made to support STANDARDS? They are there for a reason.

    Kev

  18. Anonymous says:

    IE sux man.

    It’s not W3C compliant, it let pass too much pop-ups, too big security hole … how can you say that honestly ?

    Moreover, There is a lot of more efficient browsers …

  19. Anonymous says:

    Oh yeah, forgot to mention I am running XPSP2 and the changes to IE are barely noticeable. Pop-up blocking thats no-where near as flexible as FireFox’s just isn’t going to cut it.

  20. Anonymous says:

    You Firefox people need to relax. As a web developer, I won’t TOUCH anything that has Netscape-ish/anti-microsoft crap. Mainly because choosing a product because it’s "good", is more important that choosing a product because it’s "not the company’s product"

    I have ZERO issues with CSS compliance – and what do you mean "hover" isn’t supported? Do you mean:

    .MyLinks:Hover

    {

    color: red;

    text-decoration: underline;

    }

    I use that every day, I don’t get it? About the only thing I agree on is that Firefox and MyIE have better usuability. IE has become the plain-Jane of browsers but for W3C and CSS compliance and for things like activex support, I’ll accept no substitute.

  21. Anonymous says:

    i love IE too because of the security aspect, coupled with outlook

  22. Anonymous says:

    drebin test that and you will see :

    input:hover {

    background-color: red;

    }

  23. Anonymous says:

    IE doesn’t work that well for me even though I should have used it to check for w3 compabilities. I remember i run ie in solaris once, but now I’m using other *nixes that is not supported… Don’t think solaris is supported anymore either..

    why make ie just for windows?

  24. Anonymous says:

    drebin:

    as you can read it here http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/evaluation/features/default.mspx IE have :" Full CSS Level 1 Support"

    What about CSS2 ?

    Maybe it’s time to implement some aspect of the CSS2 even if it’s still a candidate recommendation ? What do you thing about that ?

  25. Anonymous says:

    "I have ZERO issues with CSS compliance – and what do you mean "hover" isn’t supported? Do you mean:"

    You may be kidding ! IE6 CSS support is pretty outdated and partial, now try this in IE, which is a basic and perfectly standard CSS declaration:

    tr:hover {background-color:yellow}

  26. Anonymous says:

    <a href="http://getfirefox.com/&quot; title="Get

    Firefox – The Browser, Reloaded."><img src="http://www.mozilla.org/products

    /firefox/buttons/header.png" width="305" height="150"

    border="0" alt="Get Firefox"></a>

  27. Anonymous says:

    How much of the old NCSA Mosaic code is there in IE today? Will IE 7.0 be in managed code?

    There is a huge community of Bloggers and Channel9’ers out there ready and willing to help create the Browser of our dreams.

  28. Anonymous says:

    Brant Gurganus : you are right.

  29. Anonymous says:

    Drebin, did you miss my list above? Internet Explorer doesn’t support CSS tables, CSS 2 selectors, or generated content. Also, as others have noted, the :hover pseudo-class is only implemented for the a element type. Whole chunks of the CSS 2 specification, which Microsoft are partly responsible for, being completely unusable because Internet Explorer doesn’t support them.

  30. Anonymous says:

    I like IE, I would like to see the security problems fixed and tabbed browsing.

  31. Anonymous says:

    About security, just see this recommendation of the US-CERT :

    http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878

    solutions:

    _Disable Active scripting and ActiveX_ (sorry Dride but how can i use ActiveX with IE if there are security exploit ?!? )

    […]

    _Use a different web browser_

  32. Anonymous says:

    I’m agree with Jim, IE must do a lot of improvements to be a true browser !

  33. Anonymous says:

    As others have already mentioned, the current problems with IE are countless. Here are some of them in a short list:

    – IE is by far the slowest browser (compared to Firefox, Opera, et al.)

    – it has many security problems that only the more computer-oriented people can protect themselves from

    – it has also many other, not necessarily security-related bugs

    – it is not standards compliant

    – the patching of these problems is too slow (MS should have invested the 70 and then some billions to security-related development instead of lining the pockets of investors)

  34. Anonymous says:

    Why doesn’t somebody just come out and admit that IE has deliberately been allowed to slip to relieve preassures and allegations of anti-trust and monolopoly against MS, and that IE isn’t going to make any leap forwar again until its believed Mozilla has a significant enough foothold.

    The freezing of IE can only be explained as a business decision.

    For those who harp on and on waving a finger saying "IE is not standards compliant"… if the IE dev team had of carried on at the pace that took them to version 5.5 the same people would have been harping on about monopolistic practices.

    Understand this truth…. there will be no significant advance of Internet Explorer until Mozilla (or alternative) is fealt to have a secure hold within the "marketplace", and ideally after various flavours of browser are more closely integrated into KDE and Gnome…. remember MS took a lot of heat over browser integration into the operating system, and over the death of Netscape.

  35. Anonymous says:

    I like to participate in arguments to either further validate my beliefs or to learn new things.

    Today, I have learned new things. I can see the usefulness of the hover for a <tr> (and it never dawned on me that that should be possible) and after doing some research, there is a lot of cool stuff in CSS2 that I didn’t even know about!!

    I wonder what Microsoft’s stance is on this – if there is a release that’s planned to support CSS2?

    Looking back, it’s almost like in the old days, IE was ahead of it’s time and supported CSS1, but things that looked good in IE looked bad in Netscape.. whereas now, it’s the other way around and they feel behind the curve.

    And to be honest, with this security issue – there already IS a solution, for Internet sites, the browser disallows things like activex.. and for Intranet – it allows more. Why is that not enough?

  36. Anonymous says:

    Hello Microsoft,

    If you want the security problems fixed and tabbed browsing capability then turn to http://www.mozilla.org. Install Mozilla package or FireFox which is a very quick state-of-art standalone browser. It can tabbed browsing too.

    And install Linux OS.

    Microsoft Windows is far too expensive and overly vulnerable to viruses and attacks. Only OpenSource developers can make the software right !

    Begin eg. with "Mandrake 10 Official". What a brilliant system it is. Isn’t it ?

    So I will never go back to Microsoft Windows or IE anymore. I can’t afford to waste money or time with it.

    Good bye.

    // moma

  37. Anonymous says:

    About IE 6 having full CSS 1 support, that is not true, background-attachment:fixed; is not supported for all elements other than body.

  38. Anonymous says:

    Drebin,

    > I like to participate in arguments to either further validate my beliefs or to learn new things.

    That’s an admirable attitude.

    > after doing some research, there is a lot of cool stuff in CSS2 that I didn’t even know about!!

    Sadly, that’s very commonplace. The thing is, no CSS tutorials will teach things like display: table as long as the most popular web browser doesn’t support it. So people are unaware of these parts of CSS. And because they are unaware, they think Internet Explorer does everything just fine.

    If people were more aware of the features of CSS that the other browsers support but Internet Explorer doesn’t, I think you’d be hearing a lot more complaints about how Internet Explorer is holding things up for the web.

  39. Anonymous says:

    Hmm… Why can’t people debate maturely? I just see immature kiddies here calling other people’s software "shit" with no reason without telling the cons of the program they are "protecting". Don’t argue.

    Now I have to find the holes from your statements, cerbere. You seem to act by these lines laready said:

    "Mainly because choosing a product because it’s "good", is more important that choosing a product because it’s "not the company’s product"".

    So:

    " "make Internet Explorer the best way for browsing the web." … how can you said that ?"

    By just saying it. That’s cheering up and a wish.

    "I’m sorry to inform you that your browser is NOT standards compliant. So how can it be the best way for browsing the web ?"

    Could you define us what does being not a standards compliant mean, please? I don’ t know and I’d like to know.

    It can be the best (in people’s opinions only, naturally) by making it compliant with the standards, whatever that means. Or perhaps it doesn’t even need that. Maybe popularity would be enough. Or stability or support by other products.

    "I’m using Mozilla Firefox – you can download and try it at : http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/&quot;

    Thanks for the link.

    "It’s GPL guys, do you know what does it mean ?"

    I don’t. Teach me. In a non-fanatical way, thank you.

    "Some features from this PERFECT browser (yes i said perfect, because you insinuate that IE is a good browser):"

    Nothing is perfect. Thus Firefox isn’t either. Simple. No need to use CAPITAL letters for that. You only make yourself sound silly. :-)

    "_Popup Blocking_ : Mozilla Firefox : YES / your shit: NO"

    Indeed, using underlines is a fine to get people focus on something. Though, used many times, make you sound silly again. Weeee! ^_^

    And I see you begin very unfair here. You first time use the whole name, Mozilla Firefox… but then why do you call Microsoft Internet Wxplorer by the name "your shit"? It’s not its name, you know that. No one learns from this, you just start arques and slow down world wide technological improvement. And everyone will blame you for that. That wouldn’t be so fun, would it?

    "_Space Installation require on Windows_ : mozilla Firefox: 4.7MB / your shit: it depend if you install security patch, do you know what I mean ?"

    Not to mention your numerous grammar errors in your sentences (which clearly show you are taken over by your fanatical feelings), here’s how you probably should’ve put your text:

    – Fix the first sentence.

    – Mozilla is a name, thus it needs to start with a capital letter.

    – The file space needed is invalid wince you do not tell us the version number.

    – Again the "your shit" problem. Learn to use correct product names.

    – Oh, you are really going to make me trust with all those typographical mistakes. 😛

    – Give us the options, thank you. What is the full download size if you download it, what is the less space needed and did you note that it is up to some point integrated with Windows, so you can’t really say exactly how much you are installing and how much of the browser you have already…

    – Security fixes? You’d rather have a completely new version of the browser up for download each time there is one? For example, many of those mass spreading of a virus events wouldn’t have happened if people wouldl’ve used Windows Update.

    "_New Theme : Mozilla Firefox : YES / your shit : maybe you will implement this functionnality.. one day.."

    – I you meant the plural form…

    – "Your shit" problem again…

    – Are you that desperate to get custom themes to IE? Wow, nice to see you care about IE’s development. :-) (I personally have never liked any custom themes in any programs, though.)

    "Try to respect to the standards : Mozilla Firefox: YES / your shit : AH AH AH AH !"

    Okay, now I’m certain that you are a grammar illiterate ignorant trouble maker.

    "well i think it could be a good idea to take a look at http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/?application=firefox – you will find 114 extensions made by the GPL Community."

    Hm… I didn’t quite get it, what do you want to tell us by this statement?

    "Conclusion : Use Firefox, it’s so more simple."

    I am using Firefox, but simplicity is just an opinion of a person. That’s not general.

    "hum .. did I precise that it’s GPL, stupid?"

    Yes, you did. In the beginning of your speech. Gee, I never knew you had that bad memory…

    Oh, and calling someone stupid (not intelligent) without knowing that for a fact just makes you youself look stupid, sorry to say.

    Indeed, you sound like an immature 12-year old. Learn how to debate. Otherwise, thanks for the laughs. :-)

  40. Anonymous says:

    Oh, silly me, forgot to comment myself. Hehe.

    Well, guys, I hope IE’s development would get some more resources. I do understand that all of you are focusing on Longhorn, maybe even on Windows eXPerienced Reloaded, but maybe you could compile somekind of an IE 6.5 in the SP2. I’d be glad to wait for XPSP2 for anther few weeks if you did that. I’m eagerly waiting for the revise in Longhorn. :-)

  41. Anonymous says:

    LEAULE !!

    ahum sorry.

  42. Anonymous says:

    You’re funny.

  43. Anonymous says:

    Left already? :-)

    I don’t believe you had enough time to read everything I wrote…

    Anyway, let’s get to Firefox’s problems. I hope these will get fixed too:

    – Some rare random crashing.

    – Doesn’t process Java Script correctly.

    – Page formatting on various sites.

    – Pop-up blocker a bit "too active".

    I don’t remember having any formatting problems with IE… Funny, isn’t it?

  44. Anonymous says:

    Joonas,

    first, sorry for all grammar mistakes, my english is not very good.

    If you thing that i cant debate on IE, i’m sorry but what can i say when i read : "make Internet Explorer the best way for browsing the web". What can we say ?

    ok IE is the best. where is the debate here ?

    If you thing i’m sounding like a 12-year old, what can we say about this blog ? is this a commercial presentation or a real space to debate ?

    The true thing is that i’m thinking like Guy Murphy. IE was let behind. the good question is why ? Microsoft people can maybe give us a clue.

    Second, i’m sorry but for security reasons, using IE in commercial/professionnal environment is totally silly. Just see my link : even US-CERT disencourage using IE.

    third, I’m using OpenSource all days. And i’m so happy with that. It’s so easy to participate to the developpement of some stuff. Why not IE ? because it’s close.

    I’m not clausing to IE because of it’s a Microsoft product, that’s not the reason.

    I’m refusing to use IE because there’s a problem because IE is not improve like Guy said.

    So how can we trust IE is a good product is nothing is done to improve it ??

    " Left already? :-)"

    Not yet :/

    "I don’t believe you had enough time to read everything I wrote…"

    of course not many time, just in order to reply.

    "Anyway, let’s get to Firefox’s problems. I hope these will get fixed too:"

    "- Some rare random crashing."

    on GNU/LINUX Debian — http://www.debian.org — never see that.

    "- Doesn’t process Java Script correctly."

    can’t said.

    "- Page formatting on various sites."

    can’t said

    "- Pop-up blocker a bit "too active"."

    I’s better than have no blocker with IE. And you can desactive, at any moment the blicker, just click the blue button at the left botton of firefox.

    "I don’t remember having any formatting problems with IE… Funny, isn’t it?"

    Does IE can format page with CSS 2 ?

    well the answer has already be done: no.

    IE is not so usefull as Firefox. And there’s a lot of many others browser, that i’m missing.

  45. Anonymous says:

    The problems with IE are numerous, the main one is that MS made the decision to bundle it into the OS. Go back to college and ask your OS professor if the browser is really important to the OS.

    Then even worse after you used IE to illegally destroy Netscape, it was abandoned.

    Or at that is how it appears to most people who make money doing web development. I too used to be an IE user but since I have switched to Firefox I will not look back. And I usually try to convert any IE users that I can find.

    I am glad though that it appears that MS has gotten it’s head out of it’s ass and is going to start working on IE again.

    What is sad is that I have read that IE will never be stand-alone again. That means for me that I will in fact never run the damn thing.

    Bundling a browser into an OS is just a bad idea. It shows that people who make decisions at MS do not understand what an OS really is… for that matter the connection between IIS and the OS is just about as bad.

    It is almost like MS must have hired the dumbest developers that they could find. Which once again makes me sad. MS has got more money than God and yet has been unable to "on it’s own" come up with a good secure product. It has only been in recent months that enough devestating bugs (ie press) have hit MS that there has been any attention paid to security at all.

    And yes I know supposedly Gates started the whole security thing a while ago and we are just now seeing the fruits of this work.

    We will see. Good luck to the IE team. Unbundle your product from the OS and get a clue.

  46. Anonymous says:

    Dear Joonas,

    Sure, the Gecko engine (used in Mozilla browser, Firefox, etc.) is not perfect, but it is by far better than IE, and used as a reference when benchmarking web browsers…

    I’m glad you’re happy running IE. In fact, I still wonder why so many web designers/developers keep complaining about this brilliant piece of software…

    Oh silly me, it may be because of the infamous lack of CSS2 support ? Not to mention some CSS1 bugs (such as fixed background, as mentioned earlier) : just have a look on alistapart.com and how many IE hacks are needed to have it working almost correctly. It’s awful how developers have to trick the CSS engine with… comments !?

    Or maybe it is just the repetitive security problems involving Microsoft’s master piece ? Let’s play a game, search "Internet Explorer" on Cert.org : that’s about 1609 results to me. And compare this to "firefox" : that’s about 1 result today. And this result involves a Microsoft Windows related problem.

    I may be a little too confident, but my guess is that this will be quickly fixed. Love it if you want. After all, some people still use Netscape 4 too. :)

  47. Anonymous says:

    As a web develolper, I’d love to see an updated IE6 that better supports CSS2 (and 1, for that matter). Sadly, I doubt that will ever come to be. I only use IE to test compatibility for all the people un-educated enough to keep using it. I educate my clients, and they usually love Firefox.

    Firefox is my browser of choice for development (you’ve got to try the developer tools plugin, it’s fantastic: http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&id=60&vid=63) and for surfing.

    I hope that Microsoft and the IE team can hear past the immature noise here and gets the message that there’s a huge demand for standards compliance above all other concerns.

  48. Anonymous says:

    Joonas:

    "- Some rare random crashing."

    I’ll agree this needs to be worked on.

    "- Doesn’t process Java Script correctly."

    Show me an example of how Firefox violates a JavaScript standard. (If it actually does, I’ll gladly submit a bug)

    "- Page formatting on various sites."

    HA, no. View source, I guarantee the problem is in the web developer.

    "- Pop-up blocker a bit "too active"."

    Actually I have many more problems with Google Toolbar’s excessive popup blocking than I have ever had with Firefox.

    "I don’t remember having any formatting problems with IE… Funny, isn’t it?"

    Well, you obviously haven’t been viewing (or developing) standards compliant code. (You know, those W3C standards MS participated in?).

    IE vs. Firefox:

    http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/062/062.css

    Check out the sub pages:

    http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/Channel9.InternetExplorerFeedback

  49. Anonymous says:

    "Could you define us what does being not a standards compliant mean, please? I don’ t know and I’d like to know.

    It can be the best (in people’s opinions only, naturally) by making it compliant with the standards, whatever that means. Or perhaps it doesn’t even need that. Maybe popularity would be enough. Or stability or support by other products. "

    Not being standards compiant means that IE does not conform to the W3C standards for CSS (There are other standards too, but CSS is the most wanted and beneficial standard to start with).

    CSS when properly used enables a website author to make sure that their website will display correctly on any platform that supports the internet standards – note platform here means anything from a smartphone through to PC’s, not just operating systems. CSS enables true seperation of content and design thus providing much better accessibility options as well as dedicated designs for different devices that are all defined from a central document.

    IE’s lack of and buggy support for all of CSS1 and virtually non-existent support of CSS2 means that web developers have to continually downgrade their websites to work with and around IE. Apart from a few old versions of browsers that are still around pretty much any current browser not based on the IE engine supports and complies to the W3C standards so you can see why there is so much anger from web developers towards IE.

    So to re-iterate a few of the points for CSS when used correctly:

    – Better cross-platform support for devices including printers

    – Specific designs for each device to take best advantage of available resources

    – Better accessibility for disabled users

    – Better content/style seperation which leads to better document indexing and automated analysis

    – Website look-and-feel can be updated from one file

    Again, they are just a few of the benefits to having websites comply to the standards. I say websites there as in the end it’s truly up to the web developers to take advantage of CSS but developers aren’t going to use these benefits if the dominant browser doesn’t support the standards and makes it 10x harder if they do try to use them.

    I could also go on about how IE is in the position it is due to being built as part of the OS but I think thats best left to a different discussion. My point is the sooner IE coforms the sooner everyone benefits.

    Kev

  50. Anonymous says:

    travis:

    I couldn’t agree with you more, when developing pages you should be able to make total crossbrowser compatability by using standards, which the Gecko engine totally lives up to, whereas IE often freezez, and installs stuff behind my back… Browser – and web developing, has become a much easier task since I became a firefox user.

  51. Anonymous says:

    > – Some rare random crashing.

    Possible, do you have any URLs where Mozilla or Mozilla Firefox crashes?

    > – Doesn’t process Java Script correctly.

    Standard compliant Java Script ("ECMA Script") using the DOM or some proprietary JScript? URL?

    > – Page formatting on various sites.

    Are the HTML or XHTML valid? If not, then there is no "right" or "wron" page rendering. URL?

    http://validator.w3.org/ ((X)HTML Validator)

    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ (CSS Validator)

    > – Pop-up blocker a bit "too active".

    It is hard to block only the right pop-ups, but there are great improvements in work (you will see them in Firefox 1.0RC1)

    > I don’t remember having any formatting problems

    > with IE… Funny, isn’t it?

    Thats because almost every webdesigner has to create websites, that are compatible with the market leader, but there are some sites, that use the full power of XHTML/CSS2 and IE will not be able to display them properly.

    When I create a website, I normaly need about 40% of the time for creating the site in a absolutely standards compliant way that looks perfect in Mozilla (Firefox), Netscape 7.x, Opera, Safari, Konqueror and then I open the site in IE and a lot of things are broken and I need then 60% of the time to fix it for IE6.

    –Thomas

  52. Anonymous says:

    How can you love MSIE when there is Mozilla Firefox for virtually every operating system? I have serious doubts that if windows development was shut down that people would volunteer their time to develop IE in the same way that is being done on Beos

  53. Anonymous says:

    I’m a FireFox hound and have encourage family and friends to switch from using IE. Everyone I’ve switched has enjoyed their FireFox experience despite not being "techies".

    As a web developer, I want good browsers on the market and in the hands of consumers. IE was ahead of the curve but, as one poster put it, it’s now the new Netscape 4. Newer browsers are faster, simpler and lack the security holes of IE. The standards support issue is also huge since a site’s code can be so much cleaner and effecient when separating style from content. IE can do this to a certain point but then the hacks come in where CSS support differs from other browsers (CSS hack chart: http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/).

    I want IE to be a good browser so I can code pages that work across browsers and platforms without over coding or hacks. If , as some say, a browser is just a browser, then why not get over ourselves and let the user’s experience online be consistent throughout?

  54. Anonymous says:

    I’ve tried to stay objective, but comparing my experiences with MSHTML and Gecko over the past 5 years or so, I just can’t comprehend how anyone would prefer IE over Firefox.

    Using nightly builds and following the development of Mozilla products has allowed me to witness the efforts the Mozilla Foundation has made and is still making to release the best browser, e-mail client, … out there. I haven’t seen any products that begin to really compete with them when it comes to standards, user-friendliness, convenience, or just general development, by which the rate at which new features are added and bugs are fixed – for which Bugzilla continues to prove to be the most effective way.

    As a web developer, I need to be able to test things all the time. Reloading pages a dozen times and messing with (standards-compliant) code has clearly demonstrated to me that

    1/ IE6, which is a release, isn’t nearly as stable as the average Firefox nightly build I use, which is supposed to have bugs and is kind of allowed to crash

    2/ to this day, it’s still hard sometimes to predict whether that same version of IE will have problems interpreting the code that Firefox takes without any trouble.

    Add to that the feature set of Firefox (and let’s not get into third-party software for IE) and it makes you wonder how anyone could "love this browser" when there’s clearly at least one far better product out there.

    I’m sure many of you will argue that my code is to blame in at least some cases, but I can assure you that using Mozilla products has in fact made me very aware of standards and I do everything in my power to adhere to them – standards which are in fact partially defined by Microsoft.

    Finally, I’d like to add that I started out as an IE3 user, then upgraded to 3.02, then IE4, IE5, IE5.5 (which, incidently, molested my system) and finally 6. I’ve been a web developer for quite a while and I have to admit that I rarely bothered to test with pre-Mozilla.org Netscape products, because I’m willing to acknowledge that those were junk. But so did Netscape itself, and they’ve been making huge improvements, as I’ve just been saying. So if anything, I hope IE will get at least the same improvements with (or, though unlikely, without) Firefox breathing down its neck, because it appears considerable competition is the only way to startle the browser business.

    And to all of you who are just flaming or complaining here: try to be constructive. I hope I was.

  55. Anonymous says:

    come on, this blog is a rotten april fool. How can somebody seriously prefer IE for daily usage ? The only thing I like in IE is its fast Javascript + rendering engine ( not too hard, since it’s not standard compliant and deeply rooted in the OS ).

  56. Anonymous says:

    Oh, and even in Javascript, there a little thing that do not work in IE. It’s the access to a character of a string via the [] like described in the 3rd example for the String object in the references of JavaScript 1.3 ( http://devedge.netscape.com/library/manuals/2000/javascript/1.3/reference/string.html ), released in 1999.

  57. Anonymous says:

    Joonas Mäkinen:

    In the two years since a major jump in the version number of IE the Mozilla program has come into existance and surpassed IE in many area, some of which include css support and security.

    When IE 6.0 was released, mozilla.org didn’t even exist. The last update, per the Microsoft web site, of IE was Sept. of 2002. Since then Mozilla has had 11 releases.

    So I applaud Scott and the IE teams efforts, the have a Sisyphusian task ahead of them.

  58. Anonymous says:

    "I’ve tried to stay objective, but comparing my experiences with MSHTML and Gecko over the past 5 years or so, I just can’t comprehend how anyone would prefer IE over Firefox. "

    Will Tim, I can give you one. If Firefox provides detailed enough documentation telling me how to _use_ it programmatically, I’d love to switch. The source code is there, you may argue, but not everyone has the leisure to get lost in such a huge source "forest".

    IE exposes COM interfaces for programming. Although complex and not-so-easy to use, it makes things possible. What I’d like to see in future IE is,

    + Neat, clean, managed interface. It’s so painful to use COM Interop dealing with those ISomethingCrap … Why can’t I just use myBrowser.FileDownload += myDownloadHandler ??

    + Allow me to set the timeout of one instance, thanks. I know I can do it inside registry, but that’s for all instances.

    + Make it in the namespace under something like Microsoft.InternetExplorer, not SHDocVw nor mshtml in global namespace

    BTW, XP2 SP2 RC2 IE (wow, sounds like rap!) is quite impressive, nice job!

  59. Anonymous says:

    I think the most worrying aspect of the lack of IE development for years is big bad bill’s atempt to stagnate browser development in general.

    As somebody a lot wiser than me once said and i’ll roughly quote here… "If the browser is allowed to develop into a mature platform for delivering applications then that reduces windows to nothing more than a slightly buggy set of device drivers"

    The important part here is that if you dont continue to develop ( and i mean develop not fix, which is what you are doing now ) the browser, IE, unitl longhorn ( which is years off and for all practical terms that may as well be decades ) then your going to have an obsolete piece of software before too long…

    Think about it…

  60. Anonymous says:

    > [Tonetheman] The problems with IE are numerous, the main one is that MS made the decision to bundle it into the OS. Go back to college and ask your OS professor if the browser is really important to the OS.

    No, IE is NOT NECESSARY part of Windows. For some special uses Microsoft offer completly uninstalling browser from the system. It’s not offer for BU, but for manufacturers of fridges and so on (it’s for example normal Windows XP system, only without IE; the explorer become to be win95 like).

    > [Tonetheman] Bundling a browser into an OS is just a bad idea. It shows that people who make decisions at MS do not understand what an OS really is… for that matter the connection between IIS and the OS is just about as bad.

    There is another "good feautere" for the developer. You have no legal possibility to run more then one version of IE together. It’s very useful for developers… How can I test pages for enough of IE-bug-patches on IE (for example) 5.5 and 6.0 on single machine?

    Enjoy:

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.msdn.com%2Fie

    > [Thomas] When I create a website, I normaly need about 40% of the time for creating the site in a absolutely standards compliant way that looks perfect in Mozilla (Firefox), Netscape 7.x, Opera, Safari, Konqueror and then I open the site in IE and a lot of things are broken and I need then 60% of the time to fix it for IE6

    Yes, IE RISES the prize of web developing. Why? The developer (which has abilities to be signed as a developer, not ignorant with WYSIWYG editor) writes the sources cerresponding to the structure and design of page. He/she starts testing in browsers. He/she sees there is no problem (or only few cosmetic) in the most browsers (Firefox, Mozilla, Opera, …) except IE. Knows, the IE is major browser, he/she starts generating patches to make it viewable in IE in a seansible way. As a result, he make the sources messy and not very readible due to loads of unlogical (enforced by IE) parts.

    > [Kevin Freitas] The standards support issue is also huge since a site’s code can be so much cleaner and effecient when separating style [CSS] from content.

    That’s my words…

    > [P01] How can somebody seriously prefer IE for daily usage?

    Because they do not know anyone else, or the are paied to saying this.

  61. Anonymous says:

    "I may be a little too confident, but my guess is that this will be quickly fixed. Love it if you want. After all, some people still use Netscape 4 too. :)"

    I can’t say I love any browser… and I use Firefox, as I already said. I just don’t like offensive arguments.

    Oh yeah, Netscape Navigator… that still exists? 😛

    I’m not so familiar with CSS problems to give out my opinions on those. Though, I learned a new thing that needs fixing. Thanks, Kevin.

    What I found out about formatting problems with Firefox was at 3D Realms Forums (www.3drealms.com/forums.html) when quoting other users’ posts gave some glitches. The browser also mysteriously crashed there two times and once on some other site I don’t rmember. I couldn’t find a reason for that. :- Then, I couldn’t write news posts using Mambo open source, the buttons in the editor just don’t show up in Firefox so I have to use IE. (I also use IE to access Windows Update.)

    What I also found out (not a big thing, though, a bit annoying) was that in UBB forums clicking a button to place an emoticon causes the emoticon to be placed on the bottom and not where the cursor is.

    In other words, not much. :-)

  62. Anonymous says:

    (This blog doesn’t like my last name. :-P)

    Okay, it seems that the 3D Realms Forums get a "This page is not Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional!" warning also…

  63. Anonymous says:

    I’m actually a big fan of ie…. but ie for Mac. Or as least I was a fan of ie while it was still being developed.

    Explorer 5 for the mac was arguably the first real web standards compliant browser.

    Other than it’s speed Explorer for windows has always been a bastard child.

    I now use Safari mainly and Firefox when I’m my PC.

    I hope to see the new ie make big leaps forward in standards compliance, security, and HI/UI… I’d like to come back to the fold.

  64. Anonymous says:

    > [Scott] The last update, per the Microsoft web site, of IE was Sept. of 2002.

    …and I think it was only because of "adding Windows 2003 support"…

  65. Anonymous says:

    Scott,

    I’m glad you are open to feedback. For the sake of all of us developers, please make your product fully CSS compliant.

    Thanks.

  66. Anonymous says:

    With Firefox 0.9:

    I click the happy little orange and blue icon. Within five seconds, Firefox is up and running, even on my five-year-old computer. I go to Bookmarks -> Bookmarks Toolbar Folder -> Open in Tabs. All of my daily websites are open, just like that. On a cable connection, it takes roughly thirty seconds for all twenty of them to load simultaneously. I scan the page open on the first tab, press CTRL+W to close it. One down, on to the next one. Read it. CTRL+W. And so on. I’m finished reading everything in about two minutes.

    One of the pages I check daily is CSS Zen Garden, mentioned in the comments above. I look at one of the newest designs. It’s beautiful, almost brings a tear to my eye, with transparent menus and clever graphic design.

    With IE 6 (WinXP SP2 RC2):

    Internet Explorer has been "removed" from my computer, so I hit Windows Key + R to open the Run dialog. I type "iexplore" and hit Enter. Ten seconds passes, the browser is open. The interface is stylish and fits will with the Windows XP theme, but nothing compared to Firefox’s changable XUL theming support (I use Smoke <http://www.mozthemes.tk&gt;). I go to Favorites and open the first one on the list. I read the page, center click a link. Nothing happens. Oh yeah, no tabs here. I want to come back to this page, so I leave it open and open the next bookmark in a new window. Five seconds later, it has rendered. Badly. This is CSS Zen Garden. Perfectly standards-compliant designs that don’t work in IE. I skip this, plan to check it out in Firefox later. I finish the bookmarks, opening each in a new window. To close them, I have to contort my hand crazily in order to press CTRL+F4. Who came up with that combination? Finally, I am back to the page I started reading earlier. I start reading. Uh-oh, a pop-up. Close it. Another one. Close it. CTRL+W, CTRL+W. Wait, that doesn’t work. CTRL+F4. Ouch, it burneth.

    And one more thing:

    I develop websites for a living too. Mozilla Firefox’s Web Developer Toolbar extension rocks. Where can I find this for IE? Wait, IE doesn’t support extensions, but it has *ActiveX*. Great, one more thing to turn off, along with the browser itself.

  67. Anonymous says:

    I’d be quite interested to see a Microsoft IE person sort of "set the record" on this..

    -What are the plans for usability things like "tabbed browsing"

    -What are the plans for CSS1 and CSS2 complete compliance?

    It’s as simple as that. There is no WAY Firefox is going to take over the 97% market share that IE has – so unless things are still going the same with with IE a year from now, I’m not going anywhere near Firefox (for regular use or testing).

  68. Anonymous says:

    As a side note, how can any sane person say that IE6 + WinXP SP2 RC2 which weigh around 310 Mb has a real bad support of the web standards and many severe security holes.

    FireFox and Opera takes respectively 14 and 7 Mb, have much more features and a solid support of the web standards.

    That’s not serious.

  69. Anonymous says:

    I fully agree that Firefox and Mozilla are miles ahead of IE in every possible aspect, but let’s keep things accurate:

    1. Ctrl+W does close IE windows

    2. Ctrl+F4 doesn’t (perhaps you meant Alt+F4?)

    Prog.

  70. Anonymous says:

    I am sorry that there have been so many rude comments. I respect that some people prefer IE and especially the decision to create a blog open to feedback.

    That said, I am a Mozilla Firefox user as well, for reasons you have probably heard a thousand times over.

    It seems like things like pop-up blocking, tabbed browsing, and UI changes should be easy to implement; MyIE2, Avant Browser, and others have done so using the IE engine.

    But the most important point is that Internet Explorer’s CSS and other standards support has been very frustrating to me as a web developer. Floats and positioning seldom work correctly, and while it has been mentioned already, there are a host of CSS2 rules that other browsers implement that IE doesn’t. Many of these are extremely useful.

    PNG support is especially frustrating because I know that IE is actually capable of rendering them, but it requires propriety tags and attributes (http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html). While there may be technical reasons why IE doesn’t just do this automatically, they aren’t widely known. So it appears that Microsoft is just spiting the standard.

    Please support standards.

  71. Anonymous says:

    Don’t let anti-MS folk put you off Firefox. It isn’t "good because it’s not MS" – it’s honestly a better browser. If Microsoft made Firefox, I’d still gladly use it.

    I also agree entirely with Jim (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2004/07/21/190747.aspx#190979).

    It’s a shame that MyIE2 et al. exist – they allow people to have Firefox-like UI while still using IE-style rendering. This reduces the Firefox’s "pull" for end-users, who don’t know or care that IE screws up page display.

    Can you not use IE/Mac’s rendering engine for Windows? Or just admit failure, quit, and use Gecko or KHTML? Please? You’d redeem yourself by it… a little.

  72. Anonymous says:

    I’d just like to add a couple of things to what I said previously.

    It’s really frustrating when Microsoft add in a feature that they know is annoying, and only offer non-standard ways of switching it off. For instance, the proprietary autocomplete attribute. It would be dead simple to have implemented it as a meta element, but instead Microsoft have given web developers the ultimatum of annoying behaviour or invalid code.

    It’s easy to ignore "acceptable" errors like this, you say? It isn’t when you are set up to get notified via email every time one of your pages is invalid. It isn’t when you have so many "acceptable" errors in your pages that you miss the one really important error hidden amongst them.

    Especially annoying is the fact that you’ve implemented some workarounds as using meta http-equiv elements (which were intended to be read by web servers and emitted as proper HTTP headers), but you don’t pay attention to the actual HTTP headers themselves when transmitted properly!

    A lot of people don’t like "doctype switching", and somebody suggested using a meta element to determine which rendering mode to use. No doubt you think that this will be too prone to regressions and incompatibilities with existing documents. So have an "X-Internet-Explorer-Standards: true" HTTP header that can also be put in a meta element. That way, I can update a single configuration file, and invoke the standards mode across all our servers at once, for all our documents. It’s also standards-compliant, implementable by people who don’t have any control over their server, and will not affect any existing documents, so it’s perfectly backwards-compatible.

    One last thing: let’s try and keep it civil, guys. Nobody wants to read a bunch of posts all saying how great Firefox is and how shit Internet Explorer is. We all know that already, so let’s try to be constructive in our comments instead of just cheerleading or flaming. That helps nobody.

  73. Anonymous says:

    The immaturity level of this discussion is astonishing. Both the Mozilla side and IE side are doing themselves no favors with all this hyperbole and unwarranted flamage. How are the developers supposed to improve IE with this kind of feedback?

    My only wish is that the IE developers look long and hard about supporting W3C specs to the letter. I think the determining factor will be whether IE marketshare drops significantly over the next couple years. If it doesn’t, then Microsoft will likely make a power play on the web using XAML and a bunch of proprietary technology to push the technological envelope. But if people start coding advanced sites that don’t work in IE, then Microsoft may have to go the mile to support those standards.

    So, to the IE developers, PLEASE do the right thing and get standards support up to speed in addition to your proprietary extensions. I know it doesn’t make business sense, but for the good of humanity we need standards we can use. Microsoft is beholden to it’s cash cows Windows and Office, but as Microsoft internally reworks an outdated old OS over and over, the amount of waste is incredible. Think what could happen if Microsoft bent its resources towards developing the next level of innovation on top of Linux. The low-level plumbing and fundamental security issues would basically take care of themselves, and Microsoft could develop truly mind-blowing applications. Instead we see a protectionist policy that relies on all innovation to come from Microsoft, even though it comes at the expense of interoperability.

    IE developers! Please please please do the ethical thing and implement CSS2, 3, and XHTML correctly so we can develop sites that work across platforms. The world will thank you!

  74. Anonymous says:

    One other comment about the Firefox propaganda.. is disk space REALLY an issue anymore.. I mean, at ALL? Is it even on the charts? With 160GB hard drives that are $139 (http://www.staples.com/Catalog/Browse/Sku.asp?PageType=1&Sku=504516) – is the difference of even a gigabyte even relevent?

    I mean, your 310mb vs 14mb – that’s the difference of 0.193% and 0.009% of the hard drive.

    If you’ve going to defend something – you need something stronger than disk space.

  75. Anonymous says:

    The small size means you can carry Firefox around on a USB stick.

  76. Anonymous says:

    There are a lot of people out and about who have to still get their internet via dialup. Many of my students do.

    Downloading 310 mb via dialup is not fun.

  77. Anonymous says:

    There’s 3 problem with the size of IE6+WinXP SP2 RC2.

    1. it takes ages to download

    2. it doesn’t fix the security holes found in june.

    3. why the hell do we need to put 260Mb on top of many more security patches to "patch" a soft that should work and be secure in the first place ?

  78. Anonymous says:

    "security issues and perceived lack of innovation"

    Don’t bullshit us, we’re not idiots. "perceived" lack of innovation? It’s a blatant, outright dead product! It hasn’t had any rendering updates since 2000!

    As a web app developer, I lose measurable hours and money to this browser. It’s going to take a lot more than smiling words to win back any respect from me, and no doubt the overwhelming majority of other web developers.

  79. Anonymous says:

    IE is not 310 megabytes big.

  80. Anonymous says:

    Hear, hear, Matt.

    I don’t think I stressed this point enough when I posted it before. I actually went through a period of implementing designs as if Internet Explorer didn’t exist, purposefuly using useful CSS that I knew Internet Explorer didn’t support, and then going back and altering them to work with Internet Explorer. I didn’t go out of my way to trip it up, just use what I would normally if I wasn’t aware of Internet Explorer’s deficiencies.

    It was informative to see how much time I am wasting on Internet Explorer. Take multiple column layouts. Instead of:

    * Floats,

    * Clears,

    * Dummy wrapper div elements with padding instead of margins to avoid box model problems,

    * Explicit heights, hidden from other browsers, to avoid making text jump about during :hover events,

    * Spurious position: relatives to avoid disappearing text,

    * God knows how many other hacks,

    I just used display: table-cell. It worked in all major browsers except for Internet Explorer.

    I’d urge any web developer who doesn’t think Internet Explorer’s CSS shortcomings are a big deal to actually do what I did and measure the time you are wasting on this browser. Measure the money it is costing your company.

    I also agree with Matt’s other point. Please don’t be so condescending as to try and write off the negative opinions of Internet Explorer as a mere "percieved" lack of innovation. I can’t think of a single innovative feature Internet Explorer has had first, except possibly "channels" in Internet Explorer 4, which were a precursor to RSS. I’m open to correction, of course.

  81. Anonymous says:

    Joonas: It is if you apply the WinXP SP2 RC2 to "patch" the latest severe security holes. And 310 Mb is a low estimation which do not take into account the previous security patches spread here and there in the various folders of Windows.

    But, indeed if you never apply a security patch, IE is "only" ~50 Mb big.

  82. Anonymous says:

    SCOTT STEARNS, THE TEST MANAGER FOR INTERNET EXPLORER AT MICROSOFT, jumps into the blogspher with a big ‘KICK ME’ sign on his rump with the post I Love This Browser! I hopefully got your attention with the title ofmy first post. And it is definitely true for me, as I have loved browsing the web since I started way back in the mid 90s, and I really love browsing with IE. Yet, you may ask who I am or who we are that will be posting on this blog. I am Scott Stearns, the test manager for the Microsoft Internet Explorer team (as Dean says we will be pulling together full bios of people later). The IE team as we usually say. Some of us have our individual blogs today, but we also wanted to have one that was focused on what we do every day at work — make Internet Explorer the best way for browsing the web. Strange he should say that when his real achievement has been to make the worst browser on the web the top browser. Yes, by dint of his unremitting tream management, attention to design-flaw detail, and star class software rewriting team, Internet…

  83. Anonymous says:

    Just to comment on someone’s mention of IE having ~97% market share: that’s not a particularly accurate figure. From a few high traffic sites I either administer or have access to the statistics of, it’s looking *much* worse than that for IE, presently. The recent scares have sent large numbers over to alternatives.

    From one site that gets the majority of its traffic from mentions in newspapers and radio, and has a non technical but US focused audience:

    IE: 68.5%

    Mozilla: 18.8%

    Safari: 5.8%

    Netscape: 2.2%

    Opera: 2%

  84. Anonymous says:

    The lack of substantial updates and innumerous bugs and standards deficencies makes me hate it. I’m stuck developing on it at work, and end up cursing at it nearly every day. :~(

  85. Anonymous says:

    Ok, let’s not pussy foot around. If you’ve got a blog, you’ve got to be able to say something about what’s actually going to happen.

    Scott, Dean? The big question:

    Is IE going to get rendering engine updates, and are those updates going to cover the W3C standards? CSS2? 3? W3C DOM? Anything else?

    That is the time, money, and business critical question for me, and I’m guessing many other web developers.

    Say something about what’s going to happen, and what’s happening, or this blog will serve little purpose other than PR fuzz.

    Sorry to come across so harsh, but you can’t sit on a product for four years without updates (other than maintenance patches) in a software development area as dynamic as the web and not expect to take heat for it.

  86. Anonymous says:

    I believe it is apparent from the above posts that IE now losing share to other (said alternate) browsers particularly Firefox.

    What you seem to have missed the point is that you are tying the browser updates with the Windows system, especially the XP. I give you the fact that you are trying to make the IE standards compliant and providing this updated (however more focused on the security issues primarily) version in the XP SP2. But what I have heard about the XP SP2 till now I am SERIOUSLY considering NOT TO apply SP2.

    What happens in this situation ? What about the users who are using Windows 98/Me/2000/20003 ?

    WILL WE NEVER GET A STANDARD COMLAINT BROWSER FROM MICROSOFT ?

  87. Anonymous says:

    I hope Mr Stearns can hear the web developers complaints about IE. You might think IE is a super browser but believe me Firefox, Opera and Safari teams have worked hard when IE’s development almost stopped years ago, and now they are eons ahead of IE at least from compliance with standards and innovative features (bettr control, pop-up blocking, tab browsing etc) perspectives.

    I feel that IE has been only in "mintenance mode" for years, maybe this is because of Microsoft’s dream of "windows is the client for internet" and "we believe in Harddrives and fat clients" "trhin clients are evil" strategy, or some kind of "we have %90 of web, everybody using IE with its faults, so who gives a damn" carelessness.

    I hope you can at least care a little and fix some of the most serious problems mentioned above.

  88. Anonymous says:

    You love IE???, i love Osama!!!

    Seriously, if you prefer IE above normal browsers like Firefox, Mozilla and Opera, you should try Mosaic. Or Lynx (does that have a win32 port?)

  89. Anonymous says:

    Your product makes my working life a lot harder.

    Follow Standards!

    Get proper Alpha Support for PNGs.

    Do padding like *all* the other browsers.

  90. Anonymous says:

    "…and I really love browsing with IE."

    Look, that kind of transparent nonsense won’t fly. Obviously you will have used many other browsers such as Firefox that have improved on the basic browsing experience. One cannot "love browsing" with a browser that doesn’t block popups unless one doesn’t mind popups.

    Frankly, the experience of "browsing with IE" is at best mundane, like browsing your files with Windows Explorer, and it’s the baseline tool at best. SInce IE is really only defined by its deficiencies these days, which of its failings is it that makes you love it, exactly?

  91. Anonymous says:

    bredend: Lynx for Win32 is available at http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/lynxport.htm

  92. Anonymous says:

    No matter what you feel about the other posters, please, leave those irrationalities alone.

    "Seriously, if you prefer IE above normal browsers like Firefox, Mozilla and Opera…"

    If IE is a widely used browser, it should be considered normal.

  93. Anonymous says:

    "I have spend the better part of the last year working long hours and weekends to push IE forward with XP Service Pack 2, which is about increasing security while balancing application compatibility, but that is not all."

    No, the main and obvious goal is to further merge IE into the system which is clearly proving to be a horrible and useless idea, forcing the app to stagnant for the 10 years it takes to get SP2 and Longhorn out and increasing security risks. Great. Another Manager who can’t do sh1t for his product but what the lawyers and execs tell him to…. Get a good standalone upgrade out. I don’t care about SP2 or Longhorn.

  94. Anonymous says:

    I don’t know what this guy is thinking, but in a way, I respect him. Apparently the guys who work on Internet Explorer have, within the last 24 hours, wised up to the fact that their browser might blow chunks,…

  95. Anonymous says:

    As a web developer who regularly curses IE, I have to admit my skepticism to this blog. I’m sure many of the developers on the IE team are fine folks who are really trying to do a good job, but MS’s track record on web standards is, to put it mildly, weak.

    Looking at the source of the blog does nothing but increase my skepticism and make me wonder if the person(s) who wrote .Text even looked at the W3 specs.

    The pages declare HTML 4.0 Transitional, and then mix and match HTML and XHTML syntax along with a generous helping of proprietary MS garbage tags along with some sytax, that as far as I can tell, was just made up (the style sheet links for instance).

    If you want me to believe that you care about web standards, putting the IE blog into a tool that knows how to generate something resembling syntactically correct HTML would be a good place to start.

    After you tackle that, you can continue to gaiin my trust by fixing rendering bugs and implementing the huge chunks of the CSS specification that you’ve chosen to ingnore so far.

    A few suggestions:

    Fix the whitespace rendering bugs. A rendering engine that renders pages differently because a space or a linefeed is brain-dead.

    Fix the CSS rendering bugs mentioned here:

    http://positioniseverything.net/ie-primer.html

    and the peek a boo bug:

    http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/peekaboo.html

    Add support for min and max height and width

    Fix background-attachment: fixed

    And don’t even think about fixing the various CSS parsing bugs that we developers use to make pages render properly on IE before you fix the CSS rendering bugs.

  96. Anonymous says:

    Why does http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/ validate so horribly? It scored a "This page is not Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!" result on the validator…

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.msdn.com%2Fie%2F

  97. Anonymous says:

    oh and I have to agree with:

    "Frankly, the experience of "browsing with IE" is at best mundane, like browsing your files with Windows Explorer, and it’s the baseline tool at best. SInce IE is really only defined by its deficiencies these days, which of its failings is it that makes you love it, exactly?"

    When I read that someone absolutely LOVES browsing with IE I couldnt help but shake my head in bewilderment. Who really LOVES IE? What about it would someone LOVE?

  98. Anonymous says:

    True Story: In order to get a little modern with their development, the Microsoft Internet Explorer Development Team has opened their own team blog. In one of the most entertaining MSIE related blog posts I&#8217;ve seen in quite a long…

  99. Anonymous says:

    Has anyone from the IE development team responded to any of the comments here?

    I have to agree with the earlier post about IE being deliberately held back to allay monopolistic fears.

    My question is: What is the best reason why someone should switch away from Firefox to your dream-version IE?

  100. Anonymous says:

    IE is by far the best browser I have ever used

  101. Anonymous says:

    it also keeps my company intranet safe

  102. Anonymous says:

    Arthur, I never said Gecko was perfect. I don’t develop extensions or themes myself, but I’ve heard that it can be a pain because of the lack of proper documentation. Which is apparently not a priority at the moment. Why? Because Firefox (I’ll use it as an example) is primarily a Web browser, so the stress is quite logically on delivering a quality browser to the users. Once the beta period ends, I’m sure the developers will release tidy unambiguous documentation. Right now, the specification (which is probably a bad word in this stage) is subject to change at any time and it would be confusing and tedious to keep updating it as development progresses.

    And to the authors: I would appreciate it if there were anchors for every comment, so we could reference them, and perhaps quote. Also, like someone pointed out, get rid of the Microsoft-proprietary markup (are you blogging from Office or something?!) and make a few attempts to make the page validate. Please.

  103. Anonymous says:

    "What you seem to have missed the point is that you are tying the browser updates with the Windows system, especially the XP. I give you the fact that you are trying to make the IE standards compliant and providing this updated (however more focused on the security issues primarily) version in the XP SP2."

    I have the SP2 preliminary installed now. To my knowlege, and in my exprience with it not a single standards compliance issue or bug is fixed in it so I don’t know where this person heard that.

    3px jog – Still there

    "A good start would be setting up Bugzilla, to get tot know precisely what bugs are around."

    Exactly. is the IE team even aware of all the bugs in IE? I’m unable to find any MS resource describing any of the bugs web developers love so much in IE. Its unbelievable to have to surf all over, when MS could have provided some centralized resource. Of course if they did there might be some expectation that they planned to do something about all these issues.

    "If you want me to believe that you care about web standards, putting the IE blog into a tool that knows how to generate something resembling syntactically correct HTML would be a good place to start. "

    Here here!

  104. Anonymous says:

    Frankly speaking, I don’t love this browser. I don’t want to appear like a troll, just tell my opinion. Since I switched to Linux, I’ve never missed it. However, if you want me to use it, you should release a linux version of it, or at least a version that doesn’t lag as much as it does when using WINE. I’ve tried it and typing in a textbox like this was a real pain, animated gifs would flicker and on and on.

    Besides, IE is way behind in CSS (selectors among others), box modell and especially the DOM. Oh and transparent PNGs anyone? I’m teaching standards based web-design (for people who want to learn for tomorrow, not yesterday) and IE disqualifies itself. The first thing we do is install Mozilla with the handy DOM-Inspector before I start teaching.

  105. Anonymous says:

    Asa Dotzler rapporte que l’&eacute;quipe de d&eacute;veloppement d’Internet Explorer a mis en place un blog collaboratif sur MSDN. Dean le Product Unit Manager d’IE pr&eacute;sente les buts de l’IEBlog&nbsp;:

    Our goal in this blog is to be a good place, direct from the source, for information about IE. What are we working on? How do we make decisions? Why does some part of IE work the way it does? What keeps us up late at night? What are we thinking of around security, extensibility, and other key areas? Hey, any good tips and tricks?

    Some people on the team have already been doing this on their own (see the links to the left), and I expect them to continue. We’ll do our best to round up information from other sites as well as providing original content. We’ll also do our best to make this useful and enjoyable. At any time, please tell us how we’re doing.

    p.s. we promise an explanation of Microsoft titles, roles, and responsibilities in a future post.

    Scott Stearns, Test Manager d’IE, renouvelle sa profession de foi pour IE (l’emphase est de lui)&nbsp;:

    I am :Scott Stearns, the test manager for the Microsoft Internet Explorer team (as Dean says we will be pulling together full bios of people later). The IE team as we usually say. Some of us have our individual blogs today, but we also wanted to have one that was focused on what we do every day at work &ndash; make Internet Explorer the best way for browsing the web. …

  106. Anonymous says:

    I think the problem is that other browsers have advanced so much, and IE has been left behind. Lots of people can see the new features and benefits of other browsers, and IE just doesnt compare. The way we browse the web has changed, and IE failed to realise this. its too late now.

  107. Anonymous says:

    And also, i would like to see the % usage of other browsers if they were shipped with windows.

    People who think IE is safe have obviously been stuck in a nuclear bomb shelter for the past 10 years.

  108. Anonymous says:

    ever heard of mozilla?

    +1 for OSS

  109. Anonymous says:

    I’m just happy that Apple dumped IE. :)

  110. Anonymous says:

    I can’t test ie because i’m using linux… but whatever. You can afcourse say that I.E. is so great but you didn’t explain why. Why should I use I.E. and not mozilla or firefox?

  111. Anonymous says:

    I guess a mom gotta love her children however ugly they may be and boy is IE FUGLY.

    Want to know how to make IE better? Download Mozilla source code and clone it.

  112. Anonymous says:

    glad you do. But then I guess you have to.

    as a user, the insecurity of IE, and Windows generally (together with sheer bloat), is what led me to finally abandon MSOS after almost 20 years, and switch to a Mac.

    as a professional, full time, web developer, I waste hours of time trying to ensure that CSS code which works perfectly with all DOM compliant browsers will render properly in your beloved software.

    it would be a service to the web community if you could get it sorted.

  113. Anonymous says:

    hehehe, the replies are the only thing reading in this ‘blog’.

    Is this ‘blog’ viewed as a cheap marketing tool? Because if your going to convince people, you may want to:

    [b]GIVE AT LEAST 1 REASON WHY[/b] (:D) you love ie so much.

    Oh, not even one eh? Well, uh, i guess i might notice your ‘improvements’ in a year or so when i upgrade ie/sp2(for when I use it once every 2 months). Meh, i don’t even use it, i don’t even like opening it for a second…. who cares

    just posting to swell the tide of posts that’ll wake-up anyone who actually believes the drivel that comes out of any corporation’s ‘thunk-tanks’.

  114. Anonymous says:

    Geweldig. Ik heb het vreemde gevoel dat IE qua uiterlijk héél erg gaat lijken op Firefox.

  115. Anonymous says:

    I forgot to mention IE’s Poor handling of the <object> tag:

    see:

    http://realdev1.realise.com/rossa/rendertest/quicktime.html

    and

    http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/000045.php

  116. Anonymous says:

    I also use Firefox for everyday use, and have got so used to it that I had almost forgotten what IE was like.

    (I’m not a zealot – Firefox isn’t perfect; just try looking at http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/ and scroll down [Note – I used an extra tab to check that URL], but it does give me a much better day-to-day browsing experience than IE.)

    On a recent business trip, the only web connection in one hotel was a machine on the reception desk running IE, and I’m afraid that using it was a real eye-opener.

    Animated ads, pop-ups, and I thought that my middle finger had been amputated.

    I’ve also done a lot of web development over the years, using ActiveX controls and so forth. IE has its own set of quirks and extensions, like any browser, but as many people have said, its support for certain *standard* ways of doing things is patchy at best.

    The recent security problems have also made it worrying to use. I recommend Firefox to everyone now, and it will take a serious amount of effort to overtake this to a point where I actively want to switch back.

    OK, guys. Surprise us!

  117. Anonymous says:

    ok you made me chukke. and i agree that most webmasters i know, including me, are really pissed off by the non-respect of standards. with all the money you have this is the best you can do ? I think that if you continue to delibaratly break standards, people will get tired of it and swith to open source solutions, wich are obviously able to observe standards..

    – Yet Another pissed off webmaster.

  118. Anonymous says:

    "If you want to try out the latest IE browser, I strongly encourage you to download and run the latest release candidate for XPSP2 Service Pack 2"

    Hahaahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    You seriously expect people to download a 264 megabyte service pack RELEASE CANDIDATE – which could actually BREAK their existing OS install just so that they can make Internet Explorer do some of the things they can already do with Mozilla / Firefox / Opera, and have been able to do for several years?

    I used to think that Microsoft deliberately pulled the plug on IE development. Now I’m reminded of Robert Hanlon’s quote: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

  119. Anonymous says:

    IE is BUG!

  120. Anonymous says:

    You ask why?

    Because it gives me headaches.

    We develop our sides under our browser of choice and that happens to be Opera. The nice thing is, Opera does exectly that what you want it to do. After that, we check the sides with Gecko and KHTML based browsers (Mozilla, Safari, you name it), and at most we get some minor glitches, but normally code that works for one of them works for the other too.

    But the IE test often causes real pain. That a lot of code that is w3c valid and works does not work with IE – we got used to it. That some, for example, popup code works with IE in one context but not in another – well, annoying.

    I do not use IE and I don’t think I will, but some things I think you should change:

    – clean the code. As I said, some things work here, but not there. This isn’t supposed to be.

    – CSS [23] support

    – Tabbed Browsing

    – Cookie Management

    – "The Zone Model" > /dev/null

    – Either completely cat "Active X" > /dev/null or make a second, lightweight IE binary for use with windowsupdate only. But the everyday-usage-www-browsing IE isn’t ought too have a functionality that gives that much access-rights to a computer. You need it to update the system, yes. But you do not need it to browse the web.

    – Fine Grained Options, easy to access. For example the "All scripting or none" option at the moment. That isn’t userfirendly.

    – Your status bar (the one in the down right corner). All the info you can get from it is that it’s moving. You aren’t told what the IE does at the moment and the progress of the bar is not related to the progress of the asked for task. Either make it useful or drop it.

    Well, I guess over the years I got too biased. So, clone Opera but try to make it not too plump. Or, like Adobe did, license the Opera engine and give it a new skin. For all the love Opera got from Microsoft, I am already rather sure what the next IE will look like. A lot like Opera. Small, powerful and works – three words that do not come to your mind when you think of IE right now.

    But you are here to change that and I wish you luck – you really need it. Maybe the web will benefit from this, in that developers can write one side and it will work in all browsers. But, from past history, I do not count on it. There will be new IE-centric code snippets, highly used by frontpage, and the barrier-free web won’t be come true.

    Proof me wrong, that’s a defeat I would love to take.

  121. Anonymous says:

    I love firefox more. at least they appear to be actively developing a sound browser that is smaller and lighter than IE and its rendering engine is way faster….

    KDEs Konquer is a nice example of a feature rich browser.

  122. Anonymous says:

    it would be nice to show some respect for the peoples that browse this blog using other browsers than IE.

    Try Opera and see how it looks.

  123. Anonymous says:

    How can anyone even consider using IE. No tabs, no nice plugins like Adblocker, horrible usability, settings are cumbersome and many things are not even configurable. Seems to me That Scott has never tried out a good browser. I tried latest IE and it sucks big time, and I’m not even talking about security here.

  124. Anonymous says:

    I am really not surprised to see the usual Microsoft bashing people appear on this site.

    I am currently developing a software that generates Webpages via XML and XSLT (100% standard stuff) and the only browser that displays the result without any errors is the Internet Explorer. Opera completly freaks out and displays npthing useful at all. Firefox comes pretty close to the intented result, but has some display errors.

    So yes, IE has bugs like any other software, but a lot of good points also.

  125. Anonymous says:

    Web designers – including MS update site should think harder about things like:

    http://www.anybrowser.com/

    and

    http://www.w3.org/

  126. Anonymous says:

    As a browser, IE is nicely integrated in windows. Its tie into the OS offers an up and a down side. I think, and I may be wrong, that inside microsoft, its developers, and its developers whom work outside Microsoft fundamentally do not understand the critical state of the browser.

    If I were running a company with a full AD, Full infrastructure, SMS, SUS, then maybe we would be able to set things up to patch and cover our asses, but we don’t. And we won’t any time soon. And EVEN if we did, the consession that that is the state we are in is a defeatist, apologist, disaster of an ideal.

    How a leading tester of IE can make the comments made at the top of this page show the level of astonishing lack of understanding about the issues surrounding IE outside of Microsoft. How can you really laugh of a state where a company is only offering a fix for its product by an unavailable (read non beta) SP2 package?

    Right now, IE is the biggest hole in Windows. I can’t recommend it to friends, family or business. If I do, I know I’m going to be right there installing patching to any such machine forever. Its taken over from Outlook (a product now nicknamed Lookout by many) as the current security and operational nightmare.

    Its built into your systems guys, its not easily removed, its not easily maintained, its not secure, its a bloody night mare?

    Can you think of another browser that has to have the follwoing installed JUST to have any semblence of hoping to protect the machine?:

    A pop-up blocker

    BHOdemon1/2

    Ad-Aware

    Full AntiVirus

    And thats before we cover wether people will ever absorb the constant stream of windows updates. The fact that the core is so riddled, and the numbers of updates required by say, dial up users, is now guaranteed to limit take up of your updates.

    I’m not anti-microsoft, BUT dammit, sometimes you guys are your own worst nightmare. In recent months MS has re-iterated that its serious about security. Right now, IE needs to come with a heath warning. It needs major work in education of end users so they can protect themselves. Most users outside of a development or IT enviroment simply are not aware of how bad IE is, and they make assumptions about an application in regard to IE that will lead to their machines being taken. But all of that is because IE is *REALLY* that bad. Its really that riddled, open, bugged.

    Right now, in my company, from the cleaners, the users, right through to Management, there is not a soul who has faith in IE, and thus microsoft. Blithly chalking things down to ‘We suggest you get SP2’ when SP2 is still merely a realease candidate is a wind up.

    Every day of my life is now taken up with windows updates for IE to a large degree, its taken up with removing the junk, backdoors, spyware, adware, browser helper objects, ADODB.stream infestations, keyloggers, and you know what, the consensus is always thats its our fault, the end users fault, a lack of security, firewalls, policy, staff behaviour, or that we should change our whole structure by implementing an SP2 that is still only a ‘release candidate’. Thats me, on the arse end of you guys and your ‘development’ between a rock and a hard place.

    Guys, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I can’t remove IE. Thats your doing. I can’t goddamn continue to commit workaround after workaround on such a core, broken, bugged component. Is your intention to drive all end users who have any semblence of intelligence away? You do know anyone with a shredd of background info is moving off IE, even if they can’t remove it. People are running to the hills. The browser is just another component like office or otherwise that if you lose on, you lose on it big. People can use Linux from browsing the net, do you want that?

    I no longer give a rats ass about new function in IE. I really mean that. I’m not interested in IE adding more for developers. I want a damned browser that is not the new Outlook. I want it simple, secure, solid. And if your answer is what I am seeing so far, I’m going to take my whole company IT structure, and I swear I’ll get rid of this myself. I don’t care that I may be a small customer, I don’t care wether you read this blog, or take notice of what I have said, I don’t care if no one at MS cares, either you guys get damned serious, right now, or you’re going bye bye.

    stewart@gci.ac.uk

  127. Anonymous says:

    I am an opera user too.

    I checked out this Brwoser and the first i loved were the mouse-gestures.

    Once used them – you never whant to miss it. I just use IE for sites not working properly with Opera. But everytime i whant to use this gestures in IE… But they are not there…

    So, if it is possible that you make the IE more safety and include this mouse-gestures – maybe i will turn back to ie…

    BTW: A pop-up blocker will be a great bonus too! 😉

    one more thing: If anyone can tell the team working at the usual Explorer (Windows-Explorer) that they maybe include them too, so that i can browse in Windows without having to click to a button in the to left corner, this will be wicked!

  128. Anonymous says:

    Joonas Mäkinen is the anti-christ.

  129. Anonymous says:

    I certainly find Firefox a lot better for browsing than IE now. Please fix all the CSS stuff.

    Anyway, fellow web designers, even if they make IE7 CSS2 compliant we’ll still be forced to write code that will run on IE6 for many years to come I imagine. So I can’t see that we’ll be able to safely use CSS2 for at least, what, 3 more years? Minimum.

  130. Anonymous says:

    Well said Darren, I currently run 3 browsers, Opera 7.53, Mozilla Firefox 0.92 and IE.

    The only reason it hasn’t been taken out already is I require it for windowsupdate, otherwise every computer I have ever worked on would be running Firefox.

    Though I’m begining to think removing it, and it can be removed as demostrated in the Anti-Trust case, would actually be a very good thing even though I would not be able to access windowsupdate from the browser. I don’t see any other downsides, does anyone else?

  131. Anonymous says:

    re:Paul-Robert Archibald

    I don’t want to say it, but I feel like I’m on the moon screaming at mission control here, and the radio link is out. I’m agnostic in terms of systems, I’ve run and used everything from 286’s throught to AS/400 systems, and IE is an operational and security NIGHTMARE, and no one at MS seems to absorb this. They have taken to writing blogs where they start with ‘I would’nt use anything else’.

    I’d like the whole Dev team charged with IE to be forced to install NOT SOME LATEST BUILD across the MS network, but XP pre or post SP1, and then put themselves in a dial up enviroment, without any other products, and then ask them to spend half a day surfing.

    Throw in a handful of searches for the following:

    Porn

    Warez

    Hack

    At the end of that half a day, examine the cookies, add ins, BHO objects, run ad-aware/spyware removal tools and carry out a check on what changes have taken place merely by using that browser and ONLY the browser.

    My feeling, is each of these developers is living on a corp network, where they get latest machine builds with all the security updates in place. This enviroment is a disaster for me, because I now have the whole dev team coming here and on other blogs saying ‘We really love it and would’nt use anything else.’ Its delusional, its not real world. Its damn scary.

    Add in they are all probably on SP2 now, living on the bleeding edge, while the community of users in the real world is trailing trying to live on SP1, on dial up, in people’s homes, small businesses, where updates are not the priority for people’s general day to day living.

    The next MS staffer who suggests changing my production enviroment with a beta SP2….. no, I’m not going to get angry. I’m trying to be constructive..

    Whatever they do with IE, it should be backward installable back to 2000, I don’t wanna see anymore rubbish about people having to go get SP2 for XP.

  132. Anonymous says:

    IE:

    – is *NOT* standards-compliant, for a good example pls see Mozilla/Firefox, let alone the implemented standards are faulty, many know now the usual "embrace & extend" tactics of MS!

    – costs me darn too much time as a developer, all those CSS & JavaScript bugfixings for IE (I should sue MS for my time actually)

    – is slow, even though it’s part of the OS, again see Firefox & Opera

    – has no up-to-date features, e.g. popups, tabbed browsing, etc.

    – has caused me much too trouble as an admin. I can’t bear the idea of how MS first integrated a browser in the OS and dumped the development, letting us developers and those users completely lost! Again for this we should sue MS!

    How in the earth can you love "that" browser?! I’m using Firefox and dictating the users do the same on every machine here. And you know what, even if IE’s new version has all those features above, it’s predestined to lose the 2nd wave of browser-wars. You either rectify it standards-compliant and making a specific OS much less needed thus shoot yourself on the leg, or make it W3C-incompliant and lose the war anyway.

    Your arrogance and malicious provoking won’t make the browser better, only learning to code and listening to *users* will do, not the marketing-guys! I really don’t care what the new IE will bring, much too ppl learned the importance of standards, and don’t care about who implements it correctly, as long as it’s correct!

  133. Anonymous says:

    when are you going to implement "tabbed-browsing" in Iexplore? it’s so much more convenient.

  134. Anonymous says:

    I used to love it… but then I got a virus and switched to Phoenix (later Firebird and then Firefox).

    I’m a developer for a partner of MS and have to use IE at work… where I only recently got a download.ject trojan.

    Such are the joys of using IE… and that’s before we start on the CSS2 thing, which has wasted several months of my professional career (this is how you make developers HATE a browser!).

    Balmer did that dance, you know… developers, developers, developers.

    You should be able to put the pieces together yourself.

    I now use Firefox, and my website is in standards complaint code, and my home PC still hasn’t had a virus.

    My work PC uses IE, has had 1 virus and 1 trojan in the last 9 months.

    I used to love IE… but not any more.

    Now I love Firefox, even though I remain a developer for MS platforms and software.

    Be careful Microsoft, you’re losing a lot of developers… and when we lose faith and trust in you you’re onto a bad thing.

  135. Anonymous says:

    I love browsing with IE too Scott.

    Never mind the abuse you get from all the baby geek ‘I can do better’ Bill Gates wannabees. Never mind w3c/css compliance, 80% marketshare is the standard.

    Never mind security issues, they’re like child diseases, we all get them and in the end it will make us stronger.

    I can only imagine IE getting better and stronger.

    I love you Scott.

  136. Anonymous says:

    I have yet to find a more sluggish browser. And thats not all, IE seems to have this strange affinity for spyware and adware, beef up the security level and 3/4 of the sites wont work.

    I used MyIE2 too, but it turned out that it was using some IE component for rendering, however it did have tabbed browsing, that was so much easier for wnidow management.

  137. Anonymous says:

    Hello,

    If you you are ambitiouos to compete with industry strengt browsers such as Firefox and Opera you should come in par with them within several fields such as standards compatibility, CSS, interface – tabbed browsing, you know this stuff.

    But, one very basic thing that I find rarely mentioned is cross plattform availability. A browser not existent on the Macintosh, the premier platform for content creation just isnt worth to mentioned.

    Huh, there is an IE on Macintosh? Do you talk about that rotten piece of code called IE 5.2.3? Not maintained since half a century? Not the faintest similarity to its Windwos counterpart? Why should I ever bother to test my pages on this one?

    Come on, get serious and work together with your inhouse fellows from the Mac Business unit to create something reasonable. IE for Mac was a nice thing back in the late 90ies. The scrapbook feature was ahead of its time by then and it should be kept in a new version. Apart from that there is nothing a could still remember.

    The same is true for the Linux platform. By the time your new browser will be ready for prime time, this operating system will probably have taken the place, Windows occupies nowadays. So, ignoring this would be a serious fault. Dont even think about using proprietary Windows technologies (or, support Mono!).

    But then again, I am really asking myself would could be there that would make me switch back to IE once? Advantages that could outrule those issues that will undoubtly be added by your marketing staff in the end, such as Bookmarks that cant be removed, hidden transmission of web searches to MS servers and other annoyances that your companies is a synonym for.

    Well you will have to work like hell to revive IE to be a no. 1 product in some years when Mozilla will already have taken this place on the majority of computers. I wish you al the best. You will have to code from scratch and it will take several years and I would not rely on Visual Source Safe for code mgmt. during this project if I were in your place ;-).

    Just my 2 cts. Bye, Christian

  138. Anonymous says:

    If IE had no security flaws at all, firefox, opera etc are still the better browsers.

  139. Anonymous says:

    Hi,

    without a doubts. It was long time one of the fastest and stable browser on this planet. But….. we didn’t wonder. It comes from the biggest software company with the lagest money for developing on their own platform… so no wonder!!

    BUT it’s not good when over 150 People develop that tool and everey week there is a new security whole in it witch caused and can cause hudge costs for companies who have lost data but paid so much monex for MS products!!!

    I don’t use ist any more… sorry i preper an open dialog about standards and not the way….. we are the ones… we decide what happens!!

    HEY your IE doesnt support even the PNG format!!!!

    I better use a small nice tiny fast browser like firefox… no other choice and it’s more than a political opinion!

  140. Anonymous says:

    Your attempt to discredit criticism by saying you know there will be some, failed. While most people don’t know why IE is bad, and the firefox fanboys hollar about popup blockers, "extensions", and tabbed browsing. That’s not the real issue, maybe that’s what a lot of users want. And I’m glad you stayed up all year pissing your time away creating frivalous updates that have already been done by third parties.

    The fact is IE is in such a sad state that people have taken it upon themselves to try and fix your outdated browser.

    <b>http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/</b&gt;

    IE needs CSS2 support (CSS3 is in the recomendation stage CSS2 is finalized) and full PNG/MNG support this is long over do. I mean I appreciate your proprietary CSS:filters in an effort to combat cross browser compatibility, oh wait no I don’t. It’s just great you guys at Microsoft feel the need to create your own standards to try and lock out further competition. I’m just sorry the stuff you create isn’t that good. The alpha:filter for example only has 100levels of transparency, while a PNG has 256. Boy that was worth it! "I know bob we don’t need to support PNG we’ll just do something to give all graphics that power, we’ll just do it crappily" oh and not to mention that the alpha:filter affects the enter graphic. While a PNG can have parts that are transparent and parts that are 100% opaque. Your stupid filters can’t do that, and even if they could not nearly as well or as flexibly. It would take me 2 or 3 images and lots of code to do something in IE that a browser that supports PNG can do with 1 image. So why doesn’t IE support PNG yet? Is it just stubborn pride or what? What is the point in not supporting the PNG format? I’d better never hear "but we do support it" either. I’ve already demonstrated that you do not, at least not completely.

    I don’t care about popup blocking and tabbed browsing for IE, it’s been done already with the help of 3rd party addons.

    The fact is the only reason IE has such a ridiculous user base is that you intergrated it into Windows in an attempt to sidestep monopoly charges. People don’t choose to use IE because they like it. They use IE because it’s already in Window and most people don’t know enough to want to change. Some people think IE is the only thing available they just don’t question it.

    The things a lot of Firefox fanboys scream about don’t even matter, the real issue is standards not pretty make up. Then you have the firefox fanboys that thing a 4% userbase is enough to start making pages that don’t work in IE by following standards.

    I know MS left the W3C in march 2003 but IE wasn’t even in danger of being properly updated until then. Since the rumor is we won’t see IE7.0 until longhorn comes out which could be years from now it’s just disheartening to know that I’m going to have to put up with crappy CSS and PNG support.

    It makes me feel so annoyed in a sense I sort of hope hackers and crackers grind supposed SP2 security fixes into the dust. I really hope underhanded media scare tactics undermines support for the "best browser in the world". Just because I’m a selfish jerk who wants to be able to use CSS2/3 and PNG’s like their meant to be used. I would love IE if I could get those 2 simple wishes. I’m willing to bet if and when alternative browsers take a big enough chunk out of your user base so that web pages are developed to take advantage of new standards people will see how out of date and feeble IE is. I bet if such a situation where to occur all of a sudden we’d see "real" updates to the IE rendering engine. *gasp*

    But sadly I think that scenario will never happen so MS will be safe to dick around as they please in the blind face of the begging being done by web designers and devlopers. "Look at the innovation! We changed IE’s icon!"

    Bah, why do I still use IE?

  141. Anonymous says:

    … using Mozilla was like coming home after a long long time. I just had to push myself to accept 5% of non-standard sites not loading properly, now I am in browser heaven.

    I am doing market researches with Mozilla on an old notebook, I have 20 tabs open, everything is under my control in the blink of an eye and …..ah……. no popups without dealing with 3rd party anti-popup bars. And blazing fast.

    but after putting 3 billion in the research, IE will be better than Mozilla I guess. One day.

  142. Anonymous says:

    I will stick with CERTS recommendation and throw IE in the bin where it belong.

    Using IE is like walking in a live mine field!



    Mozilla rocks !

    IE sucks !

  143. Anonymous says:

    I used to agree, but not anymore.

    Getting coverage on the Inquirer

    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17382

  144. Anonymous says:

    drebin, about disk space, a whole lot of people still have like 6GB big hard disk drives at work. Moreover, my Linux machines haven’t been reinstalled for 2 years on such disks, and they won’t need reinstalling for another 2 years at least. So, your 1GB web browser on my /usr partition would half-fill it while I already have 2 entire desktop environments with web browser<b>s</b>, and I won’t change hardware or reinstall because it still works as well as I need it to.

    Ah, you’re talking about innovation? One of my browser is mozilla, and it renders XML applications just fine since about 2001, on this very hardware. What’s the minimal recommended hardware for your future equivalent?

    Have a nice day.

  145. Anonymous says:

    If your’e REALLY serious about IE, why dont you start a ‘support forum’ ???

    the MSKB is still a very one sided place to search… a cast of thousands is needed…

    I think this is the main reason other browsers get better…. because the makers listen, and *actually* improve the software…

  146. Anonymous says:

    "I really love browsing with IE"

    You honestly expect people to believe you love using a tool to browse the web? Isn’t the web much more interesting? How can you say this! You honestly expect me to believe that you love clicking the backwards button, stop button, home button, file exit, file print, bookmarks? Where’s the pleasure in that, are you gonna marry IE?

    As for firefox same thing applies, it’s just a tool. Admittedly it’s better than IE, but it’s just a tool.

  147. Anonymous says:

    My god, how can you not love it when it pays your bills. But really, you love something that does not exist on this planet yet, say that you love it after you release it. For now, the IE that everybody has, is the most … how should I say, …. buggy, insecure, crashing, exploitable, time/money eating piece of software in existance on this planet. Given the fact that almost everybody use it, not because you love it, but because they don’t know that something else exists. Anyway, I REALLY hope is as good as you say, because the whole world (the MS World) will be using it in a few years. Good luck., and happy bug hunting. 😉

  148. Anonymous says:

    I suppose you use it only to consult your corporate intranet, microsoft public websites and msn . Full Stop. Because IE as so many issues that it is not usable without incredible amount of securiware ! What avantages ? VBScripts ? unactivated in my company. They even asked us to use Opera or something else. I think I will try Firefox or Mozilla as so many people told me they are fabulous.

    I knew commercial american tv could have severe impact onto good sense, but corporate integrism is worst…

  149. Anonymous says:

    How come every time you update IE our portal crashes?

    ‘error on page’

  150. Anonymous says:

    For you its the best browser beacause is the only browser you tried.

    Choice:

    IE 5 or IE 6?

    Choice.

  151. Anonymous says:

    When M$ gets round to porting it to Linux I will try it out. However if it comes with the millstone of Windows……..well forget it.

  152. Anonymous says:

    khorben,

    You’re talking about two different things. Thing 1: using old software and hardware and being content with it (good for you!) and Thing 2: keeping up with latest hardware and software.

    You can’t take the worst part of both sides and then complain. You can’t take the small disk space of your old hardware and the high disk space requirements of new hardware.. stick with one or the other. If you are happy with Netscape 3.0 on your Linux box – more power to you!!

    And if you’re a Linux fluffer, why are you even commenting here unless it’s only to start trouble. I was hoping for something much more productive here. :-(

    You have a nice day too! :-)

  153. Anonymous says:

    How did you get and keep the position you have when you display such bad judgement?

  154. Anonymous says:

    The end is at hand! It matters not which browser you get the news on.

  155. Anonymous says:

    I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to nLite.

    This program will compile a new installation ISO of 2000/XP/2003 with a boat-load of components removed, including Internet Explorer.

    Use this to remove IE and install Firefox instead. I have absolutely not looked back, EVER, since doing this.

    And if you really, really need to access Windows Update, you can still do so by opening an ordinary Explorer window and typing http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ into the address bar since, in their wisdom, MS built the IE core into explorer.

    Trust me on this, once you’ve used Firefox for a few hours you’ll have trouble remembering what the initials I and E even stood for.

  156. Anonymous says:

    drebin,

    what I mean is that my 2 years old PC (800/256), with any average OS, let me run _state of the art_ browsers (eg any Mozilla 1.x), while consuming far less disk space than 1GB, and far less than the browser you love so much. This is what I call being satisfied with both hardware and software. This is what I call writing software consciously. As of all this mail one receives these days, size does matter. And being productive, you’re right.

  157. Anonymous says:

    I LOVE MY BROWSER FIREFOX 0.9

    IE is very bad, and not support ccs2

  158. Anonymous says:

    Internet Explorer is really great to use in applications. Having the rendering engine to display data – just great.

    On the other hand for browsing IE is not useful at all. Since I fear, that malicious websites will compromise my system, when I browse with IE, I just don’t use IE for browsing other sites then Intranet.

    So, if you want technicians like us using IE – make it safe and bulletproof. By the way, I use NT4 as desktop OS and don’t want to change it just for being able to install an IE patch. And if I need to change the OS, I won’t garantee, that the next OS is from Microsoft at all. Our servers are running well already on Linux for quite a while.

    Mozilla runs well and safe on NT4.

  159. Anonymous says:

    Sure… anyone who loves Swiss Cheese will surely love "The Swiss Cheese Browser" (full of security holes)

    I use Mozilla.

    I’m not amused with the Microsoft Java Virtual Machine that seems to be designed to break the Java standard.

    ActiveX is a security disaster as well.

    I will not log on to ANY web site using IE if security is critical. For example, I will never do any on-line banking using IE.

    The only reason why people use Internet Explorer is because it’s free.

    Just try charging money for this piece of crap and see how many people continue to use it.

  160. Anonymous says:

    Sorry,

    I started out with NCSA Mosaic in early 90s, then switched to Netscape, until IE5 came out and left Netscape in its dust. Now firefox (since 0.8) seems to have done the same with IE. What happens after 1.0 ? You guys better get off your butts and really start developing IE again FAST. Just adding some popup stopping code to go with SP2 won’t cut it. You have to match it feature for feature, better yet, match the most popular plugins which make it rediculously configurable too.

    Do I still use IE ?

    at home, only for windows update (nothing else).

    At work for eneterprise web app

    (which happens to use some activex )

    Oh and I even have a plugin on Firefox that lets me right click anywhere on a page and open it in IE just in case it uses activex. Embrace the competition, don’t insult it !!!

  161. Anonymous says:

    Alex Almeroth:

    I’m a Firefox user. But I would say Opera is very excellent as well. Perhaps you have not checked out Opera’s 7.5.x versions. The (probable) reason why Opera does not render this page properly and Firefox does is that Firefox has a better "almost standards" mode. The DOCTYPE of this page is HTML 4 Transitional, which triggers Firefox’s "almost standards" mode rendering; it’s an attempt to make sure sites render properly. (More information here: http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/quirks/doctypes.html) Additionally, as people have mentioned, this page doesn’t validate; there is no actual correct way of rendering it, since I don’t think HTML 4 specifies rigorous error handling procedure. When I code XHTML 1.0 strict, 99% of the time it displays exactly the same in both Gecko and Opera.

    The reason why some people state Opera has better standards support is that I believe Opera supported more CSS earlier than the Gecko engine for Mozilla. I don’t know if that part is true any longer.

    To the IE team:

    An easy way (at least, it seems to me) to ensure backwards compatibility is to do DOCTYPE sniffing, which you have already done for the box model. (more information on IE’s box model switch: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/toward_a_more_standards_compliant_ie/) People coding with a strict DOCTYPE should know what they are doing. You might even ignore HTML strict and conservatively only render XHTML 1.0 strict and later correctly. The number of sites coded in XHTML strict that depend upon incorrect rendering is probably extremely low.

  162. Anonymous says:

    Oops, somehow I’m in the wrong entry! Please delete this post and my previous one.

  163. Anonymous says:

    I believe that between pointless rants there have been a lot of use comments here. It’s been more than a day since Scott posted his starting comment, and still no response from any Microsoft Official… Is this their way of saying they are not taking webdesigners (I’m one myself and I agree with nearly all points made above) serious?

  164. Anonymous says:

    If I still used windows, I wouldn’t object overly to using IE, except the lack of direct alpha channel support with PNGs erks me. Why is IE the only browser in the world that knows what a PNG is that can’t do this?

  165. Anonymous says:

    Since the court case with Netscape has been settled, the anti-trust case is over, most state lawsuits are over, and Microsoft is being sued by people like Eolas for broswer technology how about a change for IE 7.

    Make the broswer more of a stand alone. It doesnt need to be integrated into the OS as it was for antitrust purposes. Unwielding it from the OS will allow you to:

    1. more easily protect the OS revenue from Eolas type patent suit.

    2. have more clearly defined interfaces for your use between the broswer and the OS which will make security fixes, architectural changes, and broswer inovation easier, quicker, and more transparent.

    3. inovate new corporate products (anitvirus, software firewall) that sit between the Broswer and the OS

  166. Anonymous says:

    >Some of us have our individual blogs today, but we also wanted

    >to have one that was focused on what we do every day at work

    How much does Bill pay folk to talk BS then? ;o)

  167. Anonymous says:

    As long as IE holds the majority audience, I will continue to use it as the primary development target.

    I may not like it sometimes, but that’s life.

    Besides which, I’ve seen some awesome front-end development using IE as the client. So great things are possible with IE.

    The "community" here leads me to believe greater things are possible with "standards-compliant" browsers.

    Why?

    If I exploit the functionality of a majority platform to its full extent, delivering applications that target the customers needs, and that they are pleased with, then my job is done.

  168. Anonymous says:

    IE is a browser only a mother could love.

  169. Anonymous says:

    I love li’l Internet

  170. Anonymous says:

    I love li’l Internet

  171. Anonymous says:

    Mozilla firefox is best browser

  172. Anonymous says:

    Sorry, did you mean:

    "Mozilla Firefox is the best browser."

  173. Anonymous says:

    Look, no one *chooses* IE. The only reason for the current marketshare is undereducated, lazy inertia.

    In my experience, few users know what the word "browser" means. Its good that web browsing has become ubiquitous, but it’s bad that people don’t even realize they have a choice. This is likely by design, and certainly what MS means when speaking of IE as "part" of the OS.

    Don’t believe me? Do a study: prompt the user for a browser choice when initializing their profile. Be sure to randomly sort the options to avoid order bias. I can already tell you what the results will be: most users will pick the first item in the list, some feel strongly against MS, some feel strongly pro-MS, and a few are excited by alternatives. I can absolutely guarantee that IE would not garner 96% of the selections.

    What features makes IE an attractive choice? Backward compatibilty is probably the most motivating factor; IE is still living in 1997. ActiveX can do some neat things (I love the Date and Time Picker and Month View controls, though the WHAT WG may soon obviate the need for proprietary date/time entry), but the cost is too high: adware and other malware. ActiveX is a buit-in back door, and doesn’t offer any more than Java applets (except speed, perhaps). What else is there about IE?

  174. Anonymous says:

    Joonas – you said: "Anyway, let’s get to Firefox’s problems. I hope these will get fixed too:

    – Some rare random crashing.

    – Doesn’t process Java Script correctly.

    – Page formatting on various sites.

    – Pop-up blocker a bit "too active".

    I don’t remember having any formatting problems with IE… Funny, isn’t it?"

    Formatting: That, once again, is Microsoft’s fault. Microsoft’s web-development tools comply with IE’s non-standard ways of doing things, not WC3 standards. So websites developed with those tools will only format properly in a browser that is compliant to IE’s non-standard. A standards-compliant browser will format the broken html according to the WC3 standards, and since the html is broken, so is the formatting.

    I challenge you: post a link that doesn’t format properly in Firefox, but does in IE. I will show you exactly what’s wrong with the HTML on the linked page.

  175. Anonymous says:

    brianiac,

    *like the site btw*

    …but, I have to disagree slightly. The single most pervasive reason for a development team to choose IE is that it’s built (right or wrong) into the operating system of approx 87% (maybe lower) of client computers. Thus you can ensure a wide installed base.

  176. Anonymous says:

    You cannot WIN using Micro$oft products, but you are certain to Lose. Poor quality software, poor service, terrible license – and horrible security…

    Micro$oft LOSEDOZE operating system – where’s it going to blow today?

  177. Anonymous says:

    Well, if it was necessary to work long days and weekends, something is seriously wrong. That makes me very suspicious regarding the bugs that are still to come to light…

    I suggest reading Steve Maguire’s book "Writing Solid Code" and "Debugging the Development Process", where he recounts his experiences at turning around the Excel group (with a big part focusing on getting them down from their 80-hour weeks…)

  178. Anonymous says:

    I don’t see how all you "web developers" design your sites for/with foxfire. I mean if you were working for serious web companies you would clearly look at the statistics, and see i.e. still has 94% of the market share, meaning almost everyone and your grandma is going to be looking at your site with it. Its silly and totally destructive to any bussiness to have a total lack of consideration for your client and what you client sees, especially when you are marketing or selling a product. Which market share do you care about?

    With that said, IE is not perfect, there are bugs and security flaws, and rendering problems to some extent, CSS support is lacking badly (not that competion doesn’t have bugs). My main problem with microsoft’s position on the browser is that they have publicly stated they stopped full on production and only plan to incorportate new versions into service packs and OS releases. I hope MS gets some sense and figures out that just because your on top now doesn’t mean that you will always be there, and non IE competions market share will start growing like it has over the last half a year. Eventually MS will find itself in a position where its no longer the leader, and people do not design websites for its browser, making it a difficult fight back.

  179. Anonymous says:

    Most controversial first post ever?

  180. Anonymous says:

    What I see in your postings is that you say, 80% of the target group is sufficient for your work, don’t care about the rest. What the "community" says is that if you stick with the standards, 100% of users will be satisfied, and it wouldn’t matter whatever is his browser’s name! But then, that’s exactly what Microsoft would wanna avoid, isn’t it, because it would make people OS-_in_dependent, right? Sorry, we see you through! And you’ve already lost the 2nd browser wars, only you haven’t realized it yet!

  181. Anonymous says:

    > I don’t see how all you "web developers" design your sites for/with foxfire. I mean if you were working for serious web companies you would clearly look at the statistics, and see i.e. still has 94% of the market share

    6% is a lot of people, even if the 94% was accurate (browser use varies with a number of factors, such as the target audience for a website).

    We don’t design sites _for_ Firefox. We develop sites for HTML and CSS user-agents. Firefox is the most compliant, so it is the most useful to use as a reference rendering when developing.

    Targetting the HTML and CSS specifications rather than any individual browser means that even if we can’t test in a particular browser with particular settings on a particular platform, we still have a reasonable expectation that it will work in them.

    I don’t think many people are saying that they don’t support Internet Explorer, only that they are frustrated in producing workarounds to try and prop it up to the HTML + CSS baseline the other browsers manage with relative ease.

  182. Anonymous says:

    Firefoxen. Hey, it may be a little buggy, but it’s not v1.0 yet, and it doesn’t invite adware and malware onto the user’s PC either.

  183. Anonymous says:

    Ummmm Whys I.E known as Internet Exploder

    If Its So Good, I Think it rubish, and every one should use Mozilla

    <a href="http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/">DownLoad Mozilla</a>

    Now

  184. Anonymous says:

    Mozilla, Opera, Firefox. IE is off the list. Get a version 7 out that supports all OS. Also, why on some OSes does IE use the explorer.exe thread and put pages in there so if IE crashes so does the shell.

    Add support for popup blocking and stop allowing Home Search and other horrific spyware and trojans to enter through IE, I have to use SpyBot, Ad-Aware and HiJackThis (and HSRemove) on client’s machines all the time to clean up after BRAIN DEAD thinking – allowing the arbitrary installation of lethal code.

    Also, release a Unix version again. What’s wrong with IE on Solaris and OS X?

    You know what this blog comment is? A Flame-baiting troll, you can’t seriously suggest IE is any good – not being updated, security flaws, not supported on tons of OS, susceptible to spyware, trojans and lame infections.

    Cure: Get a version 7, support Solaris, OS X, OS 9, all Windows, stop using explorer.exe and make sure the parent for browsing is IEXPLORE.EXE or whatever, and add a popup blocker and add STERN warnings when people insert "functionality" and prevent people from putting newdotnet and other trash in the LSP.

    Otherwise myself and all the other systems administrators REQUIRE the use of Mozilla/Firefox, just so you know. People who use this get 99.9% less infections, spyware and trojans and it has a popup blocker.

    Tah tah, Bill’s brainwashed whipping boy. Glad to see that working at MSFT bends space and time in a way where a human can actually believe what you just said.

  185. Anonymous says:

    <–Mozilla Firefox, but there are certain sites in which I couldn’t see without the use of Internet Explorer…

  186. Anonymous says:

    Well this was an easy way for a test manager to get a comprehensive list of bugs to see if any important ones haven’t yet been squished by the current version of XP SP2.

  187. Anonymous says:

    Are you nutz or have you never tried another browser?

    Do you still live in the 90s?

    My experience with Internet Exploiter on fully updated, patched,fixedWinXp (yesterday!) after 1 day of sufing with IE we found 28 (!!!) security threats (spyware, malware, virii)

    After 1 week surfing with mozilla Firebird we had NONE!

    Even if you don’t consider the fact that firebird is atleast 1,5 times faster than IE, blocks all popus and commercials, comes with tabbed browsing and renders webpages much nicer JUST from a SECURITY perspective DON’T USE IE!

    i hate IE and i only keep it fore easy updating of my Tamagotschi like O.S. that needs daily care… LINUX here i come!

  188. Anonymous says:

    Scott Stearns

    Test Manager, IE

    You are without a doubt the worlds greatest liar!

    I hope some consumerorganisation will sue you for deliberately MISINFORMING the General Internet Public!

    Shame on you hypocrite!

  189. Anonymous says:

    I just wish Microsoft would support web standards for the good of the internet community as a whole, so that creativity and innovation is maintained.

    When web developers focus only on a proprietary browser ingenuity becomes stiffled.

    I hate to see that happening.

    Kasey

  190. Anonymous says:

    As a user I haven’t used IE in about 2 years and have managed to switch my entire company over to Firefox (about 200 employees) after my boss realized he was fighting an up hill battle when it came to spyware. Since the switch we no longer have any problems with spyware and have even been able to extend the use of the T1 we installed the Adblock extension since now banner adds and popups aren’t just hidden there URLs aren’t even resolved saving tons of bandwidth. And since the realease of 0.9 I have yet to find a website that dose not display properly even those using the proprietary FrontPage extensions. But that aside the fact is Firefox is

    1. Faster (blindingly so)

    2. Smaller

    3. More feature rich

    4. Standers compliment

    5. More secure they have only had one security issue and that was more of a problem with windows then the browser

    For IE to catch up it would need to be rebuilt from the ground up there are just too many problems. ActiveX is to big of a security hole and everything it dose can be reproduce by other means. The compliance with standers is a joke. The plugin system is a joke compared to the extension system Firefox uses. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Though not a programmer I have a fealing that some of the Issues are imposable to fix simply because there too deep in the Browser/OS

  191. Anonymous says:

    I would use IE if it didn’t crash machines so GOD damn much.

    I start using Firefox because my main machine crashed anytime I opened IE. So I installed firefox and No problems since then. I have now Converted at least 10 people to use firefox and they love it. Simple Updates tons of cool features.

    FireFox plugin capabilities are just plain sweet. Heck I can block 99% of popups and even individual Banner ads. All my frequently vistied websites are BANNER FREE.

    On thing that pisses my off the most is the fact that IE has NO option To allways Mis-trust or Dis-Trust certain Certificates. How hard would it be to put a option in the Certificate pop up to always Dis-Trust this website, you have Always trust this website. Because of the lack of this feature your constantly BOMBed with DO you trust this website Certificate crap. And most people "noobs" just click yes. Then the problems start. The Spyware the Adware/Malware/Crapware and a whole crap load of stuff that come with those idiotic certificates are mind bogling. Because IE is tied into the OS the computer becomes SO slow you want to stick a red hot needle in your eye.

    I love Microsoft and I think you should bring out more shity software so I can charge more for fixing problems on peoples computers. Microsoft is a Goldmine because of this lack good software design. Hell I should easily break 60 K this year and that because my friends at microsoft keep releasing garbage software.

    THUS I love IE because it makes me money.

  192. Anonymous says:

    Hey Bill G,

    I know a great way for you to make even more money!

    Let scott and these other "developers" go free!

    it will save you a lot of money and it will save your customers a lot of money.

    MS seems to be incapable of developing" a half-way decent browser. give it up man and cut your losses.

  193. Anonymous says:

    Can some of you Firefox advocates please give me just a few examples of websites that look "perfect" in Firefox but crappy in IE? After reading through some of the comments I was actually excited to go download Firefox and take a look. I thought "oh good, maybe they fixed some of the issues that I dealt with in the past." (I won’t go into the fact that the installation crashed my system even though I have 3.2 ghz and 2 gigs of ram.) The first three sites I visited had dispaly issues that looked and worked great in IE but did not perform equally as well in Firefox.

    I’ve been a web developer / systems analyst for years and my experience has been the opposite of many of those posted on this forum. I would write HTML and put together a page the best way I knew how and open it in IE and it looked great. Then I would cross check in in Netscape and sure enough even the simple things that should work fine were broken. Trying to fix Netscape issues that worked seemlessly in IE consumed the majority of my troubleshooting time.

    I’m serious about the examples. I would really like to see the light here. So far I’m not impressed.

  194. Anonymous says:

    99% of all the websites I visit look great in firefox. Except for ASP embeded ones like Microshaft Winblows Crapdate.

  195. Anonymous says:

    You want honest feedback? Please read, understand, and learn from this:

    1. I don’t like feeling insecure while surfing the web. IE has PROVEN itself to be nothing less than insecure. We all know this. I am sorry, but your "security focus" is really quite ineffective. I should not have to cite evidence, we all know the issues.

    2. I don’t like unrequested popups and flashy ads interferring with my web experience. IE provides NO way to mitigate that. And please don’t give me the "you can install a third party app" response. Its weak and misses the point.

    3. I don’t like the fact that IE is entangled with the OS to the point of extending its native vulnerabilities to my OS, thereby placing my personal files and the security of my PC at risk.

    These are my big 3. These reasons are the only reasons I switched to Phoenix and have stayed with it up to Firefox 0.9.2. (and BTW, Thunderbird for email – which rocks). I am not a programmer or developer. I am a home user.

    After CERT put out is recommendation about IE I sent a group memo to our department urging everyong to switch browsers, and I provided them with links to Mozilla, Firefox, and Opera. Most have switched already. I also conviced my father in law, my mother, and my sister to switch. I continue to recommend these alternatives whenever I have a chance and while not everyone I talk to switches, most do. And they like what they see.

    I don’t think you will really take my words to heart because I know you are ultimately bound by the chains of the corporate heirarchy which are naturally resistant to criticism. I imagine you will place my comment in the "just another Firefox zealot" column. And you know what? That’s ok, because what I have said is given freely for you to do with as you choose. My desire is to use a reliable, standards compliant, cutting edge tool to interact with the Internet. I have found that tool and it is not IE, so I really don’t think about IE or its features anymore. They are irrelevant to me now.

    And for what its worth, I have Suse 9.1 on my laptop and XP on my PC. Its great to be able to use the same browser on both platforms(!).

  196. Anonymous says:

    Where’s tabbed browsing? Where’s popup blocking? Why are there so many exploits? Where are the skins/themes? Where are mouse gestures? Why do you think IE is more fun to browse the web with than Opera or Mozilla? How can you say that when it’s soooo much easier and more efficient to manage many different pages with tabbed browsing? Why does it take you guys so long to get the really useful features that power users love that the other browsers have had like forever? You have half the money in the world and all the resources you need, yet you’re being beaten by these other two small browsers. Observant outsiders can only conclude then that this is just a classic case of monopoly economics at work – you won the monopoly, then you stop innovating. Prove us wrong.

  197. Anonymous says:

    PS – WE WANT 100% STANDARDS COMPLIANCE!!!

  198. Anonymous says:

    > Can some of you Firefox advocates please give me just a few examples of websites that look "perfect" in Firefox but crappy in IE?

    I don’t surf in Internet Explorer, so I couldn’t say. What I can say, however, is that most of the websites I construct look fine in Mozilla, Safari, Opera, etc, and _would_ look like a hideous mess in Internet Explorer, _if_ I wasn’t forced to work around all its bugs due to its overwhelming market share.

    When you talk about your own experiences, you are using the past tense. It sounds very much like you arereferring to Netscape 4 era. Is that so? There’s practically no similarities between Mozilla and Netscape 4.

    As I said elsewhere, Internet Explorer is the new Netscape 4 – remember all the frustration you felt at trying to get Netscape 4 to cope with your markup, and then simply substitute "Internet Explorer" for "Netscape 4". Then you’ll have some idea of what we feel.

  199. Anonymous says:

    I always find it interesting that people involve so much emotion when discussing software. I tend to approach these things very pragmatically. Software is about solving technical problems. There are plenty of non Microsoft products that I use that I think are great. Conversly there are some Microsoft products that I use that are very mediocre at best.

    Since I just downloaded Firefox an hour ago I cannot give you detailed analysis of the product. I can restate the fact that the first few websites I visited had some of the same display issues that I witnessed a couple of years ago when dealing with Netscape. I am seeing a vast improvement over Netscape 4 though so keep up the good work. I am simply challenging these allegations that there are websites that look like a "hideous mess" in IE but look great in Firefox. Please just give me one example.

  200. Anonymous says:

    Mr Whatever,

    I should have mentioned: I was replying to the implication I’ve seen coming out of Redmond that IE is the leader because the marketplace has determined it to be better. My point is that IE is only where it is because it was bundled with Windows, and everything stems from that.

    If IE and Firefox were released today in their current forms, and had a level playing field (no illegal bundling), Firefox would mop the floor with IE. MS did exactly what so many were afraid of: they won the war, then abandoned the browser.

    When I show Firefox to people, it’s like they are stepping out into the sunlight. They smile, they say "that’s cool" when I show them tabbed browsing, the AdBlock extension, mouse gestures, and themes. They like that this is a product built for the love of the technology, by skilled browser artisans and hobbiests, that anyone can contribute themes, extensions, or to the browser itself, and that the bug database is open for all to see and contribute to, and vote on. I show them examples of what the Internet could be, like alternate stylesheets, transparent PNGs, smarter forms that understand relevance, and perform better validation, faster, more flexible pages that are ready for technologies outside of current expectations, and they are irritated about the foot-dragging.

    It shouldn’t be an either-or choice for developers. Doing it right, once, could mean that it works everywhere, including with future technologies. If you write to IE, your code comes with an expiration date. Any change (a change in browser audience, an upgrade or security patch, different screen resolution, low color depth, new device, printing, …) upsets the specific set of circumstances that you have written for.

    Developers are justifiably mad that this potential is being tantalizingly dangled before them, but is unavailable, not because IE accels in other areas, but because nobody even knows they have a choice.

  201. Anonymous says:

    Byron – the underlying point that is being made is that if all browsers support the same standards then we won’t see (very many) differences in the rendering output, and web developers will have an easier time developing. Is that point being heard? (serious question)

  202. Anonymous says:

    IE SUCKS. OPERA RULES! WHY? Install it and u will saee. There are SsOOOO many features in Opera that it will take 150 mil. years for the IE developers to get in IE. Good luck!

  203. Anonymous says:

    Firefox is great. It’s still got a few bugs to be worked out, but I would choose it over IE anyday of the week. I just dont trust IE. I dont like to surf the web and wonder what hijaker. Adware, Apyware I may have gotten from IE. I fill safe useing Firefox. I Fill safe knowing I have a Team of people working on improving a product because thay want the best browser, Not because that are getting a paycheck.

    I too have converted the whole company to Firefox (150+ people). I’m not a Microsoft hater. I have XPpro and a hacked 98se based kernal on my home computers. I do also run Mandrake on my 3rd computer.

    Firefox may need some work, but IE has lots more. It would take alot to get me to come back to IE.

    Regards

    -Chris

  204. Anonymous says:

    "the underlying point that is being made is that if all browsers support the same standards then we won’t see (very many) differences in the rendering output, and web developers will have an easier time developing. Is that point being heard? (serious question)"

    Yes I hear you. And I am simply iterating that point by telling you that my frustration has been that my stuff tends to work great in IE and then I have to go back and tweak it for all of these other browsers. Like I said, I am seeing vast improvements in Firefox over what I have seen from the Mozilla/Netscape camp in the past but I hardly think that they have far surpassed IE in the fashion that is being alluded to on this forum.

    That said, I do think there are some extremely valid suggestions and criticisms of the product that have been expressed. So my post is in no way meant to invalidate the constructive thinking of smart people. I am simply challenging this claim that IE is a vastly inferior product. I’m still waiting for some tangible examples of sites that look great in Firefox and terrible in IE. Please send the URL’s.

  205. Anonymous says:

    Maybe IE is a good browser in Iraq or Afganistan, but in the real is a old browser, unsecure, and with a lot of bugs.

    Firefox is the best option is we are talking about browsers.

    You have to learn first to code a html document before to talk about this topics.

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=referer

    This page is not Valid HTML 4.0 Transitional!

    A good browser always respect the standards, this is not the case.

  206. Anonymous says:

    I think Scott opened up a can of worms with this one… You’ll need somebody else to beam you up out of this one, Scotty!

  207. Anonymous says:

    > And I am simply iterating that point by telling you that my frustration has been that my stuff tends to work great in IE and then I have to go back and tweak it for all of these other browsers.

    What kind of things do you have trouble with?

    > I am simply challenging this claim that IE is a vastly inferior product. I’m still waiting for some tangible examples of sites that look great in Firefox and terrible in IE. Please send the URL’s.

    Like I said, people work around Internet Explorer’s shortcomings – you aren’t going to find many websites where the authors have allowed Internet Explorer to screw things up. It *is* a vastly inferior product. Refer to my list near the top of this page. Is it possible you are in Drebin’s position – that the only code you are aware of is the stuff that works in Internet Explorer? That is a very skewed starting point if you want to measure the browsers objectively. Perhaps "your stuff" works great in Internet Explorer, but normal code that works across a range of other browsers often fails completely in Internet Explorer.

  208. Anonymous says:

    Byron,

    >Yes I hear you. And I am simply iterating that point by telling you that my frustration has been that my stuff tends to work great in IE and then I have to go back and tweak it for all of these other browsers.

    Your frustration stems from the fact that you are developing backwards! Look, if you want to code for maximum compatibility, starting from IE is not a good choice. Start from Firefox, then add the workarounds for IE’s shortcomings (IE’s broken box model, no support for CSS 2 selectors, incorrect percentage calculations, bad positioning and z-order, etc.).

    Familiarize yourself with the standards; your mouth will water at the potential.

    http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/

    http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html

    http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/02/25/sidestepping/

    http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/intro/

  209. Anonymous says:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=web+browser

    Funny how when you search google for "web browser" IE doesn’t show up until page two. We all know how Google works ^_^.

    And since I messed it upthe first time with bold tags… http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ one of the better examples of people trying to fix IE from sucking so much.

  210. Anonymous says:

    Just wanted to add my comment to the overflow of opinions here.

    Some very interesting reading here. I mean, I knew IE was bad, but I didn’t quite realize it was this bad. The comparison with the NN4/IE situation a few years back is kind of relevant, only we didn’t know how bad IE was when we took it on…

    So, I truly hope the world wakes up and realizes there are so much better things out there, available for free. It’s happening as we speak (see the june google zeitgeist), the question is only how far this developement gets before MS’s actions result in an increasing IE browser share again… I guess a situation like the one of Google vs Yahoo & Altavista search engines is possible. Google rose from nothing but good ideas and speedy innovation, and is now the nr 1 site in the world for information. (Looks like they’re going to have a go at crushing poor msn/hotmail with their gmail too… :-)) Mozilla will, by the looks of things, stay ahead of MS, and continue (with increased pace?) to innovate in the browser market. Hopefully, this will make people stay with mozilla even when MS does include a pop-up blocker in IE.

  211. Anonymous says:

    OK, Byron – you want sites? Well here’s one:

    http://home.swipnet.se/naylor/david/

    (And I made it that way, cos I wanted it to look that way – i.e. the way it looks in standard compliant browsers – not to be a pain.)

  212. Anonymous says:

    I recently discovered through The Inquirer that the IE development team has started a new IE Blog. Is this some…

  213. Anonymous says:

    IE Sucks

  214. Anonymous says:

    I don’t like FireFox, but I cannot afford to use IE anymore, as much as I think it supports so many more features.

    Here’s priority #1 with IE Next Generation:

    – Don’t put the kitchen sink it. We don’t need XML data islands, ADODB support, ActiveX controls, VRML, etc, etc, etc.

    Give me XHTML 1.0, limited Javascript, CSS2 that just rocks the world and its ridiculous fast (i.e. not written in Java) and I’ll be happy. Make it extensible and let the community add things like tabbed browsing, pop-up blockers, gesture-input, etc.

  215. Anonymous says:

    IE is a SON ABOUT BITCH, suck suck suck every version of IE is a piece of SHIET

    viva mexicoooooooooooooooooooooo

    viva OPERA / MOZILLA

    you are smart people, do you are¿? in that case use another browser stupid moron lover of BILL GATES M$ is a great congregation of MONKEYS and not any MONKEY the are STUPID MONKEYS

    pinche putos de mierda jajajajaja los que aman windows XPorqueria con Microsft Orifice y Internet Exploter

    y saber que ya me canse por eso chingas a tu puta madre

  216. Anonymous says:

    Good rebuttal.

    As an aside, I do have one gripe about Internet Explorer that I’m not sure if anyone has covered here, but here it is: PRINTING!

    I mean, I have some appreciation for how difficult this can be given that sites aren’t designed for print (although the media css attrib comes in useful here), but Firefox does a much better job at reproportioning content to fit the printed page.

    I’ve never had any problems with developing for IE. I’ve done and seen done some cool things using the age old combination of DHTML and server side processing. I know there are some great (actually: wonderful) advances in Firefox’s rendering engine (mostly becuase it’s standards compliant I guess, and because the development team are pushing the browser all the time) that would give me even more to play with but maybe it’s the numbers game… or maybe it’s because most of my clients use IE and have invested too much in applications for the browser… or maybe it’s for other reasons.

    Whatever. Firefox (and let’s not forget Opera, Opera was doing some of the new stuff like gestures first, wasn’t it?) are better products, and it’s my hope that the IE team take a good look at their competition and try and compete.

    But maybe they shouldn’t be doing it to regain market share and kill off competitors. Their competitors don’t deserve it; tech wise they’re ahead. Maybe they should be doing it because it needs to done, because it gives them a chance to prove they can innovate, and, because halting IE development was a bad thing for a significant number of people.

    Good enough should be better.

  217. Anonymous says:

    When I can submit the URL http://www.microsoft.com to W3C’s html validator (current score: 168 errors!) and not have it barf, THEN I’ll take Microsoft seriously. Until then, no matter what the spin, they’re still trying to "embrace, extend, and extinguish" the very standards that comprise the internet.

    No thanks.

  218. Anonymous says:

    The best thing M$ could possibly do with Interfect Explodus is bury it.

    Not only is it a pisspoor browser in the current climate of <a href=http://mozilla.org/firefox&gt; free open source browsers</a>, it’s a liability and a huge security risk.

    Fixing pop-ups with a blocker in SP2 is not sufficient. If you take yourselves and security seriously, ActiveX has to go. As does the tie-in with Windows Update.

    <b>Reduce the attack profile, kill Internet Explorer. </b>

    Let’s face it, you’ve already lost the argument and the hearts and minds of anyone that knows enough about computers to care about their browsing experience and their online security.

    The bottom line is, you engineered a virtual browser monoply by bundling IE with Windows, and then you sat back, fat, dumb and happy that the browser market share had been won. <b> For 2 years. </b>

    If you said Goodbye to IE development 2 years ago, why not go the distance and say goodbye to IE forever? And do everyone a favour at the same time..

  219. Anonymous says:

    get a clue, the only reason that people use IE is because they are used to it and is "integrated" into windows. that does not make it a better browser then say mozzila or firefox

    ie is full of many many many bugs and has not been developed on for 3 years

  220. Anonymous says:

    IE was a great tool when I first saw a computer, but now when I know that it has so many bugs and is a huge security problem for my system, I chose not to use it.

    If I could I would completly uninstall it, but I can’t, I still need it for WinUpdate and a few dumb banks that do not know that is a security risk for their customers to force them use IE.

    Anyway, when it crashes takes the whole system with it, unlike the other browsers that IF they crash, they can be easily restarted .

    I really don’t hope for new features in the new IE, only hope it will not have so many security bugs.

    Also I am really curious about the next generation of PopUps, given the fact that their favourite platform will kill them now.

  221. Anonymous says:

    As an IE developer, I think your statements regarding the browser are made out of pure ignorance for how things really are out in the wild. I don’t mean that as an insult, just an observation that you likely use IE within very controlled situations where IE’s many faults and shortcomings do not affect you. Ignoring the lack of standards compliance, the ever-growing torrent of security patches, the lack of tabbed browsing, the lack of a built-in effective and flexible pop-up blockers, the rarity of usable extensions, the lack of spam filtering capability in the bunclled mail client, the lack of themes, the lack of ability to block images from specific servers without a tedious and time-consuming workaround, and the other shortcomings of IE in terms of functionality, I think it’s biggest, most immediate, and most threatening problem right now is its inherent insecurity.

    Let’s face it – the ‘zones’ model is inherently insecure, and ActiveX is hopelessly insecure. Now, as a developer, I understand that most, if not all of your browsing is done on the latest IE build available. The advantage (for you) of this is that your browser is not being bogged down by the spyware, adware, and other advertising bots and trojans that have riddled the computers of the average user for years now. Most recently, things have progressed to the point where the sophistication and aggressiveness of spyware applications like CWS (CoolWebSearch) make them often impossible (I’m not kidding, you have to reload the OS) to remove. The one thing that virtually all of these types of advertising programs have in common is that they take advantage of the inherent insecurity of the Internet Explorer web browser. Much of this is caused by the heavy integration of that browser into the Windows operating system. Thus, a problem in the MS Java machine becomes a problem with the browser, thanks to some clever software which uses the Java machine vulnerability to install itself into the web browser.

    Using Mozilla, as I have for the past couple of years, I’ve yet to experience having my homepage hijacked, having my search page changed to an obscure offshore search engine, having all my web traffic re-routed through some unknown company’s servers, having my personal information sent to a company without my consent, incessant pop-ups that slow even the fastest machines to a crawl, crashes due to corrupted files when some spyware program decides to start replacing dlls with its own (corrupted copies) thanks to IE’s willingness to give anyone and anything complete access to the computer system, or any of the other problems general users of IE encounter. Your "best" browser allows for the general user’s computer to be hijacked and corrupted in so many ways, that even paid programs/services like Pest Patrol and Spy Sweeper find themselves unable to keep up. The developer of CWShredder, a program specifically created to remove numerous varients of the CWS spyware/trojan application, gave up trying to keep up at the end of June.

    Meanwhile, the question you should be asking yourself is: where does this leave my users? The answer to the question is: in line at the repair shop, waiting to have their computers repaired at an out-of-pocket expense. When they ask the folks working at the repair shops why they’re having to spend this money (on a 1-year old super fast machine that can barely boot up anymore), just what is it you think they’re being told? When spyware has infected the computer to the point that it’s been brought to a halt, and when all attempts at cleaning the infection fail because the creators of the spyware applications find ways to infect the system faster than anti-spyware application developers can find out how to remove the spyware applications, just who do you think it will be who gets blamed?

    What I can tell you is that I’ve yet to see, among friends, family, and co-workers, a single computer brought to its knees by spyware where the primary web browser is something other than Internet Explorer. Now, I understand that much of this stuff requires user actions to work, but a lot of it doesn’t (so long as you’re using IE). Gator got in trouble a while back for its ‘drive-by’ installations, which didn’t require the user to do anything other than point IE at the wrong website. No user of Mozilla, Opera, or any other alternative to IE ran into this problem – and this was an application that sent personal information over the web. If users understood more about technology, their computers, and the internet, you guys would have seen just how well the EULA holds up in court numerous times by now.

    In the end, you can certainly disregard the opinions of everyone who’s said something negative about IE, but you should also remember that the average users – your bread and butter – are running away from IE as spyware brings their brand new systems down to a crawl. These folks are having to spend money hand over fist because the web browser *they* like is letting them down in the security department. It’s letting spyware and trojans flow into their system, and things are getting to the point where users have no choice but to seek an alternative in order to protect themselves. That spells a huge decline in marketshare in a very short period of time. Forget the new features – strip out ActiveX and start protecting people from spyware or lose the web browser war forever. Those are your options at this point.

  222. Anonymous says:

    I honestly could not have said it better, thank you Loki_1929!

  223. Anonymous says:

    Loki_1929 RIGHT ON BRO. Well said. I concure wholeheartedly.

  224. Anonymous says:

    Hello Byron,

    > And I am simply iterating that point by telling you that

    > my frustration has been that my stuff tends to work

    > great in IE and then I have to go back and tweak it for

    > all of these other browsers.

    Is your code valid HTML/CSS? Do you use proprietary MS JScript or standard compliance JavaScript?

    If your sites validate without any errors and you still see problems with Mozilla/Firefox, that don’t appear in IE, then this is probably a Mozilla issue, but I bet that you just made the errors.

    http://validator.w3.org/

    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

    Tell me some URLs of the sites you are talking about.

    > Like I said, I am seeing vast improvements in Firefox

    And have not seen any improvement in IE for almost four years now.

    > I’m still waiting for some tangible examples of sites

    > that look great in Firefox and terrible in IE. Please send

    > the URL’s.

    As someone else said, a lot of people design websites, that are 100% standard compliance and look great in Mozilla, Safari or Opera and then they test them with IE and almost everything is broken. Then they spend a lot of time to fix this IE issues and remove features, that IE doesn’t support – so you will not find many sites, that looks bad in IE, but they are doing it only because of IE’s market share.

    Ok, let’s give you some URLs. I have not tested them in IE, but I bet they will not be displayed correct. Try these sites with IE and Mozilla/Mozilla Firefox and see the differences:

    http://www.mezzoblue.com/ (use the menu in the upper right corner)

    http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html

    http://www.csszengarden.com/ (browse the different designs on the right menu)

    Just think of the many things IE does not support, like PNG alpha transparency, XHTML 1.1 (IE does not support the correct MIME type application/xhtml+xml), CSS issues (:hover for every element, position:fixed, box model bug, CSS2) and many many more.

    And please do not forget to show us the URLs of sites, that doesn’t work properly in Mozilla.

    –Thomas

  225. Anonymous says:

    Live-at-Blog &raquo; Yo amo&#8230;

  226. Anonymous says:

    Thanks to you, over 90% of PCs over the world sontain spyware.

  227. Anonymous says:

    I worked at a networking/computer service job at my university campus last fall & spring basically spending 4 hours a day fixing problematic internet connections for dormitory students.

    95% of the cases were networks down due to IE’s insecurity of adware. Everyday I’d basically do the same thing: get on the PC, clear IEs cache, configure MSCONFIG and get rid of crap startup items, download/install/update/run Norton Antivirus, run LavasoftUSA Ad-aware, remove any adware programs from Control Panel -> Add/Remove programs, enabled their Xp firewall (how I wish this was on by default), and then recommend the students to Mozilla Firefox. Most of the time I made something up of how installing Mozilla Firefox was the last step I had to take to getting their internet fixed, even though IE would have sufficed, simply because I know college students visit spamfiled dirty sites and that IE would only consume all the material and fill their computer up with utmost amounts of garbage.

    Anyhow, fun job! 😉 Heh, gotta make money somehow. I did enjoy helping people and curing (although it’s more like temporary relieving) their ignorance on how to fix their computers.

    I wish Microsoft could reach out to its customers more effectively and make known the procedures needed to secure their computer from viruses and spamware. 99% of the 100 or so people I worked on this last year don’t even know what WindowsUpdate is! So much ignorance even in the college students.

    It’s a sad world. As a web developer, just as another guy said–perhaps in this thread, I always recommend people to Firefox. Not sure for security or standards compliance, but features and web development tools. IE lacks much.

  228. Anonymous says:

    "I don’t see how all you "web developers" design your sites for/with foxfire. I mean if you were working for serious web companies you would clearly look at the statistics, and see i.e. still has 94% of the market share, meaning almost everyone and your grandma is going to be looking at your site with it. Its silly and totally destructive to any bussiness to have a total lack of consideration for your client and what you client sees, especially when you are marketing or selling a product. Which market share do you care about?"

    There are two words that sum up ALL the advantages of coding to a known standard (what you call desgining ‘sites for/with’ Firefox):

    QUALITY CONTROL!

    If you code to a standard, and you can test with a tool that *correctly renders that standard* (guess which browser I am NOT referring to…), you can then systematically identify and (if necessary) correct the rendering bugs of other browsers (such as IE). Starting with the standards-compliant code and tools for testing said code guarantees that you can isloate rendering bugs, but coding ‘tag soup’ style as for ‘quirks-mode’ IE *provides NO guarantee that you will not encounter the same rendering bugs.* The difference, the CRUCIAL difference is that in ‘quirks-mode’, you may have no reliable cue a) to what caused the problem in the first place, and b) no way to tell that your fix for the first bug will not be responsible (possibly together with some other factor) for the occurence of a later bug…

    QUALITY CONTROL!

    Every other productive industry in the world uses measurable standards for QC, and almost every other industry on Earth produces more consistently high-quality products than the web-development community does.

    This problem did not start with Microsoft alone, but Microsoft is more massively implicated in the continuance of the problem than any other single entity or combination of entities.

    -BHC

  229. Anonymous says:

    I Fear This Browser! (and people named "Test Manager")

    – Why don’t you fix 1 year old security holes?

    – Why do you ignore web standards to make the IE W3C compliant?

    – Why do you get money from MS for this lousy work? (btw, whatever do you do?)

    Thanks to Loki_1929 and his posting: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2004/07/21/190747.aspx#193653

    Better us a browser like Firefox or Opera! Small, fast and much secure!

  230. Anonymous says:

    IE is only usable when it is locked down like the default in ws2k3

    ——- with activex + active script + java script disabled.

    If left those "features" enabled you can expect IE to be hijacked in 2 days and you machine boat loaded with torjans. Without javascript IMO the browser is’nt really usable. Having a Internet facing program bundle deep into the gut of the OS is the exact cause of it.

    Have it your way if you still thinks IE is the best browser here.

  231. Anonymous says:

    Just wanted to comment on all the "IE is insecure" comments. yes, its true, BUT IE is also the prime target, seeing as it is the 90+% browser. If and when Mozilla reaches those numbers, the focus will move to finding exploits in that browser. And exploits will be found.

    Even if browsers get locked down, the problem will move elsewhere – to sofwtare installers, etc etc.

  232. Anonymous says:

    Hello Damien,

    > BUT IE is also the prime target, seeing as it is the

    > 90+% browser.

    Yes, monoculture is always bad.

    > If and when Mozilla reaches those numbers, the focus

    > will move to finding exploits in that browser. And

    > exploits will be found.

    There are a lot of people *now* and *in the past* who tried to find security flaws in Mozilla. Although it is much easier to find this vulnerabilities in Mozilla, because the source code is available to the public, the number is really small according to the number of security related bugs in the Internet Explorer. But the big difference is, how Mozilla and Microsoft react to security holes: Mozilla normally fixes the bug in a very short time, when Microsoft needs weeks and month to fix the problem. There are a lot of unpatched security holes now, with exploits available, that are known for month.

    Another factor is, that Mozilla is not that deeply integrated into the operating system, does not support unsecure technologies like ActiveX at all, and was always developed with security in mind.

    –Thomas

  233. Anonymous says:

    ME LOVE SPYWARE.

    ME LOVE WINSOCK FIXES.

    ME LOVE IE.

  234. Anonymous says:

    Loki_1929 Quote: That spells a huge decline in marketshare in a very short period of time. Forget the new features – strip out ActiveX and start protecting people from spyware or lose the web browser war forever. Those are your options at this point. /Quote

    That is what I find so worrying about Microsoft’s approach. They now only make a move, because they rapidly are loossing market share. All the security problems, the lack of supporting standards, the user unfriendly features, nothing has move Microsoft to do anything, they even halted operations on its development.

    Now they open up, pretend to really want to make an effort, but for how long? Until they regained their position in the market and then the starting to give a toss again!

    Scott, this isn’t about improving IE. This isn’t about complying with standards, about security and all this stuff. This is purely about shareholder value.

    Thus, I quote myself. Quote:

    # re: We’ve been Scoblized

    Dear Scott and IEBlog team,

    My major problem I am having with IE is the attitude it stands for. You see, there was that innovative company Netscape making the web accessible. Then Microsoft moved in took over the market (which is fine with me, as you guys really made an effort).

    Having a nice market share of 90% and all of a sudden you stopped devoting resources. I mean it is not just happened yesterday that people started complaining about the lacking features expected of a modern browser (download manager, pop-up blocker, tabbed browsing, skin support, etc). Most of all having such a huge market share, you failed to recognise the responsibility you are having on making sure that this thing is well-secure.

    You, to me, showed a high level of dissappointing ignorance towards these problems. Now I see, that you are realising the threat from other browsers in terms of market share and all of a sudden Microsoft feels the need to do something about it. I think this is totally two-faced and morally wrong. You dissappointed me once and I won’t let that allow to happen again. Instead, I support those people who are committed to create the best browsing experience for me – not because of market share, but because that’s what they love to do.

    No matter what you are going to implement, you will always continue to play this kind of game I utterly do not appreciate. Therefore, I cannot and do not want to use IE. Naturally speaking I do not recommend IE to anybody, it’s rather the opposite.

    While I do believe your sincere intends Scott, your company and the perceived spirit it embodies is inappropriate and incompatible with me, making most of your undoubtably good software become a necessary evil :-( .

    Kind regards

    Soenke

    /Quote

  235. Anonymous says:

    I don’t us IE at home now, I use proper browsers like Mozilla Firefox and Mozilla, and the slightly less secure Opera, on occasion. IE is excrement it has fatal DESIGN flaws in security and even full patched causes really stupid layout flaws for legal HTML. At work I have to use MS Junk, but I only use it when absolutely necessary e.g. for email and testing customer websites. All PC, I use regularly, have masses of vetted security software loaded, to protect me against unknown, but expected security leaks in Microsoft software, at home the main defence is a NAT Firewall router because hell do I know which port will be vunerable next.

    Just to give you any idea how much I hate IE; at home I have deleted, renamed, misdirected (in the registry to the Mozilla control if possible), deleted entries etc. all this because I am sick and tired of getting malware _even_ when I don’t use IE.

    I only have to go to to such extremes because Microsoft were too greedy to design in security at the start, deliberately compromised security, gratutious integrating IE into Win98/NT/2K/XP then bodging in fatally flawed security later, to make it worse Microsoft made the API public so that other blithering idiot developers used MS browser components too e.g. McAfee, Symantec, BigFix etc.

    OK I can’t use Windows update at home now, big deal most of the update (kludges) were IE security bug fixes + can be downloaded, also I cannot use Windows HTML help … yet, but a clever developer can always find a way!

    Lastly … GET BENT for supporting such unspeakableness.

  236. Anonymous says:

    If you had tried the latest opera 7.53, you would see it is the best and most secure… and smaller, easier to use, and does not need ‘add-ons’ like firefox…

    http://www.opera.com/startup/

  237. Anonymous says:

    Because I don’t need it on Linux!

    Come on guys, don’t dream. Think realistic. If you don’t need porn on the net you don’t need buggy & dangerous IE. It’s a security risk. Whole Windows is a security hole.

  238. Anonymous says:

    Quite an emotive issue, this one!

    Regarding ‘add-ons’ for Firefox, illiad. You miss the point, evidently.

    Firefox is open source. Opera is not. Firefox doesn’t "need" add-ons, but the modular nature of its extension system means that you are free to code functions into the application where you need them.

    From the user’s point of view, Firefox is fully fledged and ready to go straight out of the proverbial box, with a core set of features that leaves little missing. If you want extra functionality, you install extensions. If you don’t need them, you don’t install them.

    The one size fits all paradigm invariably leads to increased bloat with evey new release of an application. Think "Clippy" and you’ll get the picture..

    Firefox, on the other hand, gets smaller with every release, whilst retaining the core functionality and evolving core functions.

    Opera may well be a mighty fine browser.. that it’s several notches up the evolutionary ladder in terms of IE is certainly undeniable. But it’s still commercial and closed source. Doesn’t mean it’s inferior, but it also does mean that it doesn’t have the same community and vision as Firefox/Mozilla.

    If the web is an online shopping mall, IE wants to be the store manager, the distribution chain and the agent supplying the goods.

    Some browsers, on the other hand, work on the premise that the web is a collaborative tool for info exchange, and don’t try to break standards, off-road competing technologies and force the end-user into a trap.

    When you look at a browser, don’t just ask yourself "Is it cool?" but also ask "What’s the agenda of the developer?" and "Is it standards compliant?"

    Standards are the level playing field.. proprietary extensions are the illegal steroids..

    Pop Vox: When Bill G visited Acorn Computers (Cambridge, England) in the mid 80s, they had a network infrastructure in place (econet) and Bill didn’t get it. He’d never encountered networking before, apparently. "What’s a network?" he was reported asking.



    http://xplite.r0gue.net | Xen & The Arse of XP Maintenance

  239. Anonymous says:

    IE is a joke. Face it.

    Firefox is beautiful software. Face it.

  240. Anonymous says:

    I just don’t believe that IE is ‘secure’. I know too many people who have had their computers become full of malware (as in STUFFED full) because of IE’s holes.

  241. Anonymous says:

    QUOTE: "If you had tried the latest opera 7.53, you would see it is the best and most secure… and smaller, easier to use, and does not need ‘add-ons’ like firefox…"

    I’m sorry, but that is just ridiculous. Firefox doesn’t "need" add-ons, It’s good as it comes, I could happily use it stripped down, but you add whatever you want and customize to your own needs — this is awesome because the browser doesn’t come with a load of unneccessary, intrusive crap that you have no control over. Opera is one hell of an ugly browser too, page rendering is horrible, and last time I looked (not so long ago) it was absolutely full of bugs.

    A GOOD, BASIC FIREFOX GUIDE:

    http://forums.amd.com/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=15618&st=0#entry155981

    Microshaft may as well ditch IE and write some software we can take seriously. Go on, guys, create a whole new browser and admit IE is total rubbish. I dare you.

  242. Anonymous says:

    Whoops, I should also add — Opera isn’t free.

  243. Anonymous says:

    IE is to browsers what AOL is to ISP’s… well, maybe AOL isn’t quite that bad.

  244. Anonymous says:

    Many web developers might have told you this already, but I will sleep better if I stress it again.

    http://www.w3c.org

    It’s that simple.

  245. Anonymous says:

    IE will never cut it as a browser, even if you managed to fix all the problems and improve it enough to woo some people into enjoying it. I turned my back to IE and I can guarantee you I’m not going back.

  246. Anonymous says:

    Scott you smoked your lunch! As a MS professional… I can say at the present times MS certification and $0.75 I might get a cup of coffee… IE blows big time! Get real!

  247. Anonymous says:

    Keep on working.

    I love this browser, too.

    Improve it – yes.

    But it is the only browser 4 me.

    thanx.

  248. Anonymous says:

    I think I’d rather swim in a lake of sharks than download a beta security pack for the operating system to make a browser work a little better.

    Why would I want to do something that drastic when tremendous alternatives already exist?

    I, for one, think Opera is the classiest of the bunch.

    http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/7/

    http://www.opera.com/features/

    http://nontroppo.org/wiki/WhyOpera

  249. Anonymous says:

    One of the biggest errors a commercial operation can make is to produce a product which people either can live very happily without, or are absolutely delighted to be rid of. I can not think of a single person, that I have ever encountered in any sphere

    who has chosen to use IE 6 over the alternatives (once they know the difference). Having IE 6 installed on a PC is like have an alien (movie type) living in the basement. The damage it does to the karma of the whole system including the file manager is simply unbearable. I do not know why I am bothering to tell you. MS have made the lives of web developers, clients, and users absolute misery for years. I really hope you now get whats coming. We do not need your product. Period. The biggest service you could supply to *upgrade* it would be to publish comprehensive instructions on how to disable or uninstall all of it.

    And the html mark up and css of this very blog could have been done by a ten year old. As usual on your sites.

  250. Anonymous says:

    IE continues to shun web standards, and rely upon MS-centric code which is much to blame for the (sad) current state of existing we pages.

    Mid-90’s developers came to rely upon MS-centric code (document.all anyone?), rendering them incompatible with standards compliant browsers. This has serverd to retain IE’s market share, albeit in an underhanded fashion. Standards-compliant browsers are no buggier than IE; the accusations usually stem from the fact that they don’t support MS-centric pseudocode.

  251. Anonymous says:

    In an attempt to add concise constructive comments:

    When browsers meant IE4 vs. NS4 it quickly became clear to any discerning developer that IE4 was far superior.. at that time, I was very happy with IE.. as a developer it gave me so much freedom, it’s DOM was comprehensive in comparison to any other browser.. you could say as a web developer I "loved" it..

    Today things are very different.. there is no comparison between Firefox 0.9.x and IE6.. FF is lightyears ahead, both from a web development/standards perspective and a web user/usability perspective..

    I "love" Firefox because it is better.. in so many ways, most of which have already been mentioned many times already.. I recommend it to anyone and everyone I meet.. as far as I can tell most people who even use the web for 1 minute every month would enjoy that minute far more using FF..

    Word is spreading.. people are discovering these options, with the sincerest goodwill I offer you the same advice as I have to many other people (who have ALL responded positively).. try Firefox for one month.. and I predict that after that month you will never want to use IE again for everyday browsing..

    If that doesn’t help shift your perspective, even if you are unable to communicate it due to your current occupation.. then clearly you have a different experience to every single other person I’ve recommended it to..

    My thanks to you and the MS developers for all your efforts on IE.. I hope you continue to improve it for both users and developers.. but in it’s current state I’m sorry to say I just can’t find any reason at all to "love" it.

    Regards

    Dan

  252. Anonymous says:

    <BLINK>

  253. Anonymous says:

    Ha ha, what a great blog. Really.

    But i must comment anyway! Reading through the comments already, I have converted at least 15 people to Firefox over IE. People always complaining about how IE has popups, gets spyware. Mine doesnt even open anymore. I’m uninstalling it as we speak. lol ha. well there would have to be some extreme overhaul of the overall backend and look to IE for me to go back.

  254. Anonymous says:

    recommending downloading sp2 before using it, well, really makes the point, doesn’t it!

    IE has serious security holes and a lack of compliance with standards. and you love it.

    to be honest, i think you should look for another career if you think this is the best browser.

  255. Anonymous says:

    Anyone that in anyway believes that the latest version of IE (Internet Explorer) [http://microsoft.com/ie”>http://microsoft.com/ie] is better than the latest versions of Mozilla [http://mozilla.org/] or Opera [http://opera.com/] is seriously misinformed or ignorant of the superiority of the latter mentioned browsers.

    IE is riddled with security flaws and is seriously lacking comparatively in regards standards support. The former of these is of great concern and can be of financial cost to both users and financial institutions all the time, and the latter troubles web developers who wish to be standards compliant (thus creating highly accessible, efficient and fast websites) every single day.

    It is a disgrace to Microsoft [http://microsoft.com/] (a multi-billion dollar company) that it’s web browser is inferior to an open-source web browser. I am sure that Microsoft could easily overtake both Mozilla and Opera in the area of standards support in a relatively short period of time if they wanted to.

    In my mind Microsoft are just thinking of themselves and the only way in which they would even consider begin implementation of the demands of web developers was if the browser wars were to be restarted like they were in the good old days or if they had a dramatic mind shift, both of which are unlikely from my point of view.

    Whilst I do have strong opinions regarding IE, I am not a stereo-typical “Microsoft hater”. I use Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office – both of which I have no problems with. It is just IE which I find to be highly inferior and annoying.

    For all web users, both in organisation and individual situations, I urge you to move over to using a browser such as Mozilla (or Mozilla Firefox [http://mozilla.org/projects/firefox/]) or Opera – you will not be disappointed. I also pass this recommendation to web developers, as well as passing a strong suggestion to use the web standards developed by the W3C [http://w3.org/], such as XHTML [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/] for markup, CSS [http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/] for style and PNG [http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG/] for imagery.

  256. Anonymous says:

    And like a lover you seem so blinded by this love that you can’t actually notice the object of your affection has gallivanting senility. Bravo to you!

  257. Anonymous says:

    Amidasu | Gedanken zum Leben, dem Universum und den ganzen Rest

  258. Anonymous says:

    Wow, this site was coded "so well" that I couldn’t even post from Opera. I kid you not, the "Title" "Name" and "URL" textboxes didn’t appear at all. Firefox does a good job of rendering mangled code, thank goodness. Oh well, moving on. The gaping security holes are obvious, I don’t want to get into that. Other people more knowledgable than me have covered that already.

    Me understand not the points of given out for arguments Internet Explorer so good being. Being know Internet Explorer compliants standards not many people. Design good look not regarding, other reasons compliants standards important is for Internet. If not compliants standards, guess browsers to render. If guess browsers to render, render pages the same not.

    OK, it’s getting a little hard for me to type like that. But did you get what I was trying to say? No, not what I literally wrote, but what I was trying to imply. Standards to HTML/XHTML and other web languages are the equivelent of grammar to English and other languages. If we didn’t have a standard for proper grammar in English, we would still sort of understand what we’re saying to each other, but a lot of guesswork is involved. Having standards and grammar lets us portray ideas to each other in an easily understandable manner. And isn’t that the point of the Internet? Sharing ideas in an easily manageable and understandable environment.

    Sure, it works without complying to standards. But that defeats one of the main purposes of the Internet. That defeats a fundamental concept of communication.

    Now, I don’t think MS is purposely freezing development on IE for avoiding the monopoly fiasco. What I really think is that they’re dedicating their resources to Longhorn, XBox, and other projects in which they actually make money. As for why they wouldn’t use the money they gave away to investors … well, let me put it this way. If you went to a restaurant for the second time, and the manger remembered you and gave you a 10% discount, would you be more likely to return to that restaurant to eat? They’re devoting their resources to things that make them money.

    The problem with that is, while MS keeps making more and more money, the state of the world-wide Internet community is worsened. The public is getting the much talked about shaft, as innovation for web design is stifled by IE’s lack of standards compliancy. Web designers have to make sure their site works properly for IE, or else over 90% of the population won’t be able to view it. Making a page work for IE is more of a priority than making use of advanced CSS and CSS2 properties to enhance the delivery of content. Web designers pushing for standards compliance are a minority. Most people who make their own pages could care less, and would rather the rules be less strict.

    By trying to make more and more money, and not having any further developments on Internet Explorer, Microsoft is effectively screwing the public. And the public, by and large, is already screwed so much that it’s simply too numb to care.

  259. Anonymous says:

    Whoops. Don’t mean to double post, but let me finish:

    I’m glad that this IEBlog is up to help keep us up-to-date with current developments. And I think that’s what most people really want – to know what’s going on. A big kudos to taking a giant step towards bringing the entirety of the web on to the next level.

  260. Anonymous says:

    I love IE too. It has always been way ahead of its time but has been plagued by attacks from the open-source community who are trying desperately to compete with it!

    Give up guys, most people are happy with the way IE is going and "tabbed browsing" just aint enough to make us use another browser.

    Mozilla and their ilk all suffer from rendering inconsistencies, and many have proprietary (non w3c) CSS syntax. Complete hypocrisy.

    To the geeks who ankle-bite Microsoft, I say this: Do something constructive – use blogs like this to help MS develop IE.

  261. Anonymous says:

    Eugene I disagree.

    We do care. and We are actively seeking ways to get away from Microsoft.

  262. Anonymous says:

    Chris Beach – Examples? … Thought not. Troll.

  263. Anonymous says:

    If you "love this browser", then you haven’t tried Firefox. :-)

  264. Anonymous says:

    If your job is to actually IMPROVE IE, how are you going to do that by only praising its present condition? Isn’t a bit of criticism necessary to improve anything?

  265. Anonymous says:

    Oh, before I forget:

    1 – FOLLOW STANDARDS INSTEAD OF ALWAYS TRYING TO DICTATE THEM

    2 – FIX CSS2

    Can you imagine the amount of trouble you’ve caused developers for your lousy support of CSS?

  266. Anonymous says:

    Apple or micro$oft…um hard decision, not! I would choose apple every time and after recentley switching hate to use my XP pc now with buggy software and prone to crashing and hackers. XP is VERY outdated and is visually dreadful, alothough I agree the IE isn’t too bad. I personally use Mozilla or Safari but also have IE due to incompatibility problems, which I have to say is alot better on the mac as most Micro$oft products are.

  267. Anonymous says:

    Hmm is this a cheap Advertising stunt?

    No well, of course you love IE, its YOUR baby.

    For the rest of the web Mozilla rules supreme over your ugly, ugly child.

  268. Anonymous says:

    As a corporate user — Amen! I love this browser!

    As a pr0n addict at home, this browser is the must hijack susceptible, security unconscious, hard-to-use and integrate multiple security scheme, either you have to block everything or nothing… browser on the planet.

    I’ll continue to use it at work, I’ll continue not to at home…

  269. Anonymous says:

    A blogger who loves IE??

    That’s a rare occurence.

  270. Anonymous says:

    "Eugene I disagree.

    We do care. and We are actively seeking ways to get away from Microsoft."

    We are a minority. A really, really tiny minority. Most casual users are happy with Internet Explorer, because it works on all major sites, and people purposely cater to Internet Explorer with their code. The general public, the hundreds of millions surfing the web, don’t really care. We are but a few, too insignificant for Microsoft to spend more resources to lead major developments to a project that doesn’t make them money.

    Don’t get me wrong, although I do hate the state that IE is in now, I geniunely hope that this blog is a sign for great things to come. I’m not anti-Microsoft, I’m not pro-Microsoft. I’m pro-progress, pro-innovation. If Microsoft can actively bring that us to a new age of innovation on the web by supporting full CSS and w3c specs, then I will heavily respect Microsoft from doing so.

    Do you think there would be so many books on the market right now if grammar never existed? Grammar brought about many ways to bring out ideas in an innovative manner. XHTML and CSS is the new grammar, and believe me when I say the web will be a lot better off with everyone complying to the specs. People will still be able to portray information and imagination in different styles, but in a way that’s easily understandable.

    I want Microsoft to succeed in this. Microsoft is the primary factor in pushing the web to the next level. Whether or not you support the company, you cannot deny that fact. And I’m 100% behind the IE team if they’re really trying to actively improve IE as a standards compliant browser. You can argue that people can switch to Firefox if they don’t like IE, but the fact is, most people won’t. It’s simpler to stick with IE for most people.

    To the IE team: You have the chance right now to revolutionize the web. If you hear our pleas, and if you incorporate the suggestions of serious web designers, the entire Internet community will be grateful. I cannot stress enough the importance of the IE team to the entirety of the Internet. Know that serious web designers support you 100% in trying to make progress with IE. We are not Microsoft haters, we are web lovers with a vision that has thus far been stifled by IE.

  271. Anonymous says:

    Many of us are concerned with security and web standards. I am also concerned about what IE 6 does to any system it is installed on. It takes over the whole thing and runs riot. Settings are reset. The computer crashes and then reboots mysteriously to an earlier config. Other apps start playing up, crashing or being deleted. The file manager becomes unuseable. Plugins stop functioning. It sets itself as default for just about everything. IE starts updating itself without our consent, and all the time the freakin monster is communicating to and from MS – all of which the user is blissfully unaware of. Then it cant be uninstalled. Any one here who even thinks MS wants a better browser is not in the real world. It works the way it does because they like it that way. The integration of the browser and the OS, allied to the Windows update, is MS entree to annual licensing for everybody, the end of choice and legacy systems, and the loss of control of the *client* into MS hands. Longhorn is going to be the nadir. It is pointless talking about security. MS like it that way so their wierd proprietary stuff can do its thing. *balanced with application compatability*. What does that mean? What applications? People it is time to get real. The CERT warning is the MS Chernobyl. They are in meltdown.

  272. Anonymous says:

    IE is to browser as Kazaa is to P2P.

    Both are virus invested wastelands.

  273. Anonymous says:

    Firefox rocks IE = a joke why would you waste time with having to update your browser every otherday when you can get a beta version of firefox which is stronger fast safer and easyer to use

    microc0cks learn from the little guy once in a while.

  274. Anonymous says:

    I second the original authors opinion – I Love This Browser

    Why?

    It generates income for me. When combined with Outlook or Outlook Express it provides a solid amount of business clearing virus’ and other malware. It also gives a good lead in to selling antivirus software.

    On the down side, it gets very boring. I would far rather being doing more interesting work. As a tech savvy user I was most embarrased to get caught by malware myself after following a search result that lead to something other than what I was expecting (they’re a cunning lot these malware people) – and this was on a fully patched Windows XP Pro with antivirus, but not (unfortunately) anti-malware software.

    Still, this was an unusual situation since I cannot afford to risk my own business to Windows and Office (including IE and OE/Outlook). I use Linux from server to desktop (apart from a test machine or two) and it is far more productive and easier to use (I will admit there is a certain amount of familiarity here, but I’ve used Windows from v3.0 including administering servers, so I’m not exactly a novice!).

    As a web developer IE is the thorn in my side. Because of its market share you cannot ignore it, but I’m afraid the fact that it doesn’t conform to internationally defined standards for writing web pages it is holding the Internet back. It is very reminiscent of when I had to design an Intranet and ensure that my pages would work on a 640×480 resolution in 16 colours.

    When I think what I could code up for websites quickly and easiliy if I didn’t have to consider IE it is depressing (but then again, the longer the work the better the money – although also the more frustrating and less interesting!). It has to be said that I am increasingly inclined to make sites work in IE, but include a page explaining how much better the experience could be in something else and include links to downloads – maybe even a branded version of Opera or Mozilla / Firefox!

  275. Anonymous says:

    Full PNG support is crucial. It wil make the browser look much better.

    CSS should be implemented, but it is true that CSS sucks, and I would not be too disappointed to see you guys ‘innovate’ a new style syntax, preferrably xml-y ( W3C standards have not been good lately. I would not mind cutting losses on CSS, admitting that it was a failure and starting a-new. I doubt however that everyone would agree with me.) . The xaml syntax looks promising (certain layouts are near impossible and CSS, and the layout model feels broken or limited).

    It seems to me that the html browser is a dying item. The model seems to be evolving to a browser that supports viewing all sorts of content – XML, RSS, Images, SVG, VRML, XAML, — whatever –, and that the browser should be come more of a universal document browser. Even more crucial in the futire will be some aspect of the browser that manages resources (location, caching, searching[ I want to see a list of all of the web pages I have seen in the last week that have the phrase ‘Lance Armstrong’], subscriptions, and notifications).

    Other things that you simply must implement are some proper way to use document definitions to tell the browser how to process the markup. You should definitely have complete standards mode, and you should definitely have complete support for XHTML. To not have full support for these standards is embarrassing an reflects very poorly on Microsoft’s ability to produce software. As a company that I think is the best in the world at producing software, this crucial weakness is a glaring mistake that seriously undermines Microsoft’s credibility as a software company, and that simply should not be. (This probably seems scattered, but the key is, if you re going to provide support for a spec, do not do it half-assed. Microsoft should have zero trouble implementing a spec properly, and you should have been able to avoid back-compat problems with document declarations.)

  276. Anonymous says:

    IE is the best browser? Yeah, right! I might have thought that too, before I discovered FireFox. Saying IE is the best browser is like saying that Windows 98 is the best server OS. It ain’t true.

    C’mon. At the point where Opera far surpasses IE in support for web standards, you guys should wake up and start working.

  277. Anonymous says:

    I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet, but since so many of us around the world are stuck on dial-up, it would be nice if Microsoft would include a download manager in IE that would allow us to resume downloads of Windows updates. It’s really annoying to be 95% through downloading a critical update and then lose my connection. Throw us a bone, Microsoft!

    I only use IE when I have to, for everything else I use Firefox.

  278. Anonymous says:

    So do the developers ever post anything?? I would love to hear an official response to at least a FEW of the above posts.

  279. Anonymous says:

    I propose the letters stay the same (so it’s easier to avoid), but the actual title of IE be changed to Interfect Explodus from here on in. Just to better reflect its nature.

    Intercept Exfoliate doesn’t have quite the same ring…



    http://r0gue.com | bullshit & banner free..

  280. Anonymous says:

    CAN YOU SAY BLOATWARE. It attracts pop ups, makes browsing multiple websites at once damn near impossible, and It smells like cabbage.

    It’s time for a real browser. Firefox treats me kind at night, and I don’t need to get a pop up blocker for it or a google bar or all sorts of bug fixes. sheesh.

    Microsoft needs to hire some people who use the internet.

  281. Anonymous says:

    So another day later and not one post from a dev. How do they expect us to think they give a rats a$$ what people think if they are not going to participate on their own blog?

  282. Anonymous says:

    Security aside, W3C Standards are what it’s all about…until IE (developed by Microsoft, which has the most resources on Earth and, I believe, is a member of that standards-development body) will accept that developers want standards for valid, everyday life reasons (and not just to bash Microsoft), then developers will indeed bash MS.

    Adobe and Macromedia are just two examples of companies that have excellent relations with their customers: Photoshop artists are respected, Dreamweaver developers are courted, etc. – none of us outside of Microsoft need Bill Gates to come do our dishes for us (we’re not asking MS to do *everything*), but the year-after-year, arrogant disregard for what *actual* CUSTOMERS want is beginning to reap its proper rewards.

    A Wish-List for IE?:

    1 – FULL native support for CSS 1, 2, and as much of 3 as possible

    2 – FULL native support for MathML (yes, real people actually do want, and *need*, this) – think scientists, mathematicians, researchers, statisticians, etc.

    3 – FULL native support for PNG

    4 – FULL native support for SVG

    5 – FULL native support for XML *and* XHTML (delivered either as html or xml)

    6 – Tabbed Browsing

    7 – pop-up blocking (customizeable by site)

    8 – NO ActiveX, Smart Tags integration or dependencies

    9 – NO integration with the OS

    10 – NO integration with other Office products

    11 – SMALL Core Footprint, with the ability for plug-in/extension development to provide for more specific features

    12 – DROP Alexa: it’s spyware

    13 – FIX IE’s printing bug, where it prints something like "file://C:DOCUME~1(name)LOCALS`1TempNNL02KNO.htm" instead of simply printing a web page’s actual URL

    Until such time as IE sports some of these *basic*, *necessary* features, here are a few resources that are more useful than the way-out-of-date marketing…opps, sorry, technical, info provided by Microsoft:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=IE%27s+shortcomings&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CategoryBrowserBug

    http://www.positioniseverything.net/index.php

    http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/supportkey/syntax.htm

    http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html

    http://westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/index.html

    http://nemesis1.f2o.org/bugs

    http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/01/26/ie-factor.html

    http://www.galaxygoo.org/blogs/archives/000528.html

    http://geocities.com/csssite/index.xml

    http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/guide/product.html#standards

    http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/why/

    http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/

    Sorry, but you’ll need Mozilla, Firefox, Netscape 7.1, or other Gecko-based browser to see some of these sites properly, since IE doesn’t fully support standards such as MathML, SVG, PNG, CSS, etc.

    PLEASE, listen to us…some of us actually DO like IE…but it has caused more trouble than any other single piece of software is many of our lives…and I’m not saying that to be mean or make you feel bad.

    I would LOVE to see an IE with incredible standards support and tough-as-nails security…wouldn’t happy developers constitute a small (or maybe not-so-small) army of marketers eager to tout the benefits of such an IE to all *their* customers, if they had a reliable browser from you?

    That just seems like good business.

  283. Anonymous says:

    Opera is and has always been light years ahead of its competition. I think the IE team could learn a lot about improving the browser from simply using Opera for a month or two.

    Obviously, there are the basics that Opera has had since before 2000: tabbed browsing, mouse gestures, ability to zoom the page, and customize practically every aspect of the experience.

    There are also other features – for example, you can set Opera to start up where you left off. Imagine you’ve got fifteen different sites open when you need to shutdown or log off the machine. In any other browser, you’d have to bookmark each page, and open them later. If you’d accidentally close the browser instead of one page, you’d have to dig through the history to find them again. In Opera, you just reload the browser whenever you want and there are the pages you were looking at.

    Opening a folder full of bookmarks is something else that Opera has had since at least 1997, but has only just been added to Firefox in the last version.

    Being able to turn on and off Javascript or Java at will through a shortcut key. Being able to toggle images on and off at will. Switching between author and user CSS files if you’re CSS-inclined. Fast and smart display of cached pages (pages that IE or Mozilla will reload every time) when all you want to do is flick back a page or two to re-read something.

    I’ve seen people claim Opera is full of bugs, but I defy these people to provide even one example – I use Opera for hours on end every day, and have not come across a single bug that wasn’t related to bad web page design.

    IE team: Use Opera for a few months – get used to it, explore the options, and above all,browse with it constantly. You will soon see why Opera users are the most vocal about their browser. No other comes close (but if IE would improve to this level or beyond – wow! Longhorn would be on my shopping list before you could blink).

  284. Anonymous says:

    Internet Explorer????

    Internet Exploiter more like.

  285. Anonymous says:

    No really. it’s better than that shower of shite called Internet Explorer. Wanker.

  286. Anonymous says:

    Hi Scott Stearns.

    You’re kidding … right?

    Every sane web surfer knows IE is a security nightmare.

    With its plethora ActiveX and BHO security holes, it’s no longer a question of “if” its next security hole will be exploited; it’s only a question of “when”…

    … And now, the “when” time interval tends to zero.

    Even some insane web surfers know this, but they continue using IE under the sanguine assumption they’ll never get stung. They’re behind a firewall and promptly apply Microsoft’s vast multitude of security patches…

    … And lately, the patch time interval tends to infinity.

    But they’ll get stung.

    It’s only a matter of time before an IE security failing, and its hooks into the OS, ensures their PC is becomes a zombie, one bot among many in a bot network.

  287. Anonymous says:

    Another day, another security patch or two to internet explorer.

    Quality product from a quality company.

  288. Anonymous says:

    You are not very bright then.

  289. Anonymous says:

    I love you

  290. Anonymous says:

    Two words: Mouse Gestures. They go really well with tabs.

  291. Anonymous says:

    ok i dont think there is a browser out there which integrates better with windows that IE..but i think that MyIE2 has better features even thought its using the IE engine..ok there are security issues but honestly…how many ppl even care about it..if ur using ur credit card over websites like amazon or any website using the paypal system…u are secured…so i dont think this is much of an issue. btw thnk it will be better if IE has a download manager of its own..like opera…its easy to use and it also reduces the number of open windows.

  292. Anonymous says:

    > if ur using ur credit card over websites like amazon or any website using the paypal system…u are secured

    This is completely untrue. If somebody has put spyware on your system through one of Internet Explorer’s many security holes, there is nothing Amazon, Paypal, or anybody else can do to prevent disclosure of your credit card details.

    Just because there is a padlock symbol, it doesn’t mean anything is secure. It means your computer is communicating with a server via HTTPS – spyware running on your computer can eavesdrop, it’s just that somebody with no access to the two computers can’t eavesdrop.

    Whenever you let something run on your system, it can do anything you can do. If you can see your credit card details, so can it. Don’t let a shiny padlock icon lull you into a false sense of security.

    All of this is true no matter which browser you use. It’s just that Internet Explorer has far more security holes than other browsers, which is why we are complaining. These security holes _matter_. Over here in the UK, two people have been arrested for dealing in kiddy porn, gone through hell, and finally aquitted themselves by proving that their computers were running software that had gotten in through security holes. Right now, spammers use many insecure computers to send spam. Unless you are fine about helping these scum, you should care about security.

  293. Anonymous says:

    The truth is that Microsoft has a habit of producing bad software – probably due to being closed sourced and the limited minds can’t produce anything else. It "looks" pretty on the outside, but, that’s as far as the beauty goes.

    Linux is a wonderful product, which is winning the OS war, by the way, despite what you want to believe, because practically the entire world is working on it in some way – it’s open source. The source code for Microsoft products is kept secret and hidden, thus, severly limiting the amount of people who can work on it and, therefore, limiting its quality.

    My suggestions is thus. Open ALL the source code for Microsoft products, thereby allowing more folks to improve it. Or keep it closed and continue to wane until such time as Microsoft products are no longer wanted by the public at all.

    Microsoft Corp. is going to lose the revenue generated by it’s Microsoft Windows OS’s. Either by opening the source code to the public, or by the public demand for the products dying out. Revenue generated by MS Windows OS’s is going to be lost, one way or another.

  294. Anonymous says:

    What is IE???

    someone call this program "html browser", but since it doesn’t comply html/css and even has no intention… what is it???

  295. Anonymous says:

    Hi,

    please don’t fix anything. It’s fine the way it is.

    – Burt

  296. Anonymous says:

    Burt,

    You are either a Microsoft shill or retarded. When the department of homeland security tells people to stop using Internet Explorer, you can damn well bet there is something wrong.

  297. Anonymous says:

    Owen,

    Can you smell the irony? Leave Burt alone, he’s fine.

    Rather, save your ire for Interfect Explodus.. united we stand..



    http://xplite.r0gue.net/journal.htm

  298. Anonymous says:

    It can’t be said enough times: what we want is CSS3, proper xml/xhtml support, and a full and complete DOM. Give us these things, and you won’t need your COM-based ActiveX.

    Oh yeah, and tabs.

  299. Anonymous says:

    Rogue,

    Sorry. I’ll wipe the foam from my mouth and try again. :)

  300. Anonymous says:

    I used to love IE 5-6, only when the only other alternative was Netscape 4. Two years ago IE was absolutely the best browser around. This ceased to be the case when Mozilla 1 came out and I starded developing with XHTML and CSS2 according to W3C specs. There is not point in yelling here and calling IE and people who developed it names. I trust they did the best they could with resources and time provided to them by Microsoft. But now the browser is simply outdated – plain old (love it or not), and it’s definitely time to upgrade it. So until 2006 – happy Firefoxing everybody!

  301. Anonymous says:

    I was once a fan of IE, and never ever used to use other browsers. Later IE was dumped with security holes which literally scared me to use IE. Later switched to Firefox. Honestly I don’t want to blame Microsoft or Mozilla.

    Any human should try to accept thier mistakes and try to rectify them, rather than saying "The Best browser in the world"

  302. Anonymous says:

    Stick to the standards w3c.org… Oh i foregot, microsoft invent their own standards when they don’t get their own way.

    Down with IE. Up with Mozilla FireFox! (From a web developer who loves Mozilla and codes for both ie/mozilla).