PIKOM meeting in Malaysia


Petronas Towers, Kuala Lumpur I’m in Malaysia this week for several meetings, including a briefing set up by PIKOM, a Malaysian ICT industry association and member of the TC4 technical committee and ISC-G in SIRIM, the Malaysian Standards body that is responsible for evaluating DIS29500. PIKOM wanted to hear both sides of the debate around Open XML, and they set up a meeting for this purpose, which I was invited to attend.


I thought I was going to have an opportunity to see Yoon Kit and debate some of the BRM resolutions with him. YK is one of the most prolific bloggers on Open XML lately, and we sat near one another in the BRM in Geneva, so I thought it would be interesting to compare our perspectives on the work done there. Unfortunately, for reasons that aren’t clear to me, YK didn’t attend the PIKOM meeting last night.


I was told when I first heard of the meeting that it would be a debate on the technical details of Malaysia’s 23 comments on DIS29500, to help PIKOM’s members understand the issues of most importance to Malaysia. The concept was that IBM would provide five persons who feel Malaysia’s comments hadn’t been addressed, and Microsoft would provide five people who felt that Malaysia’s concerns had been addressed, and we would debate the 23 comments at a PIKOM meeting on Wednesday evening. But when we arrived Yoon Kit wasn’t there, and then I heard he had other plans and couldn’t make it. Then on his blog post today YK said the meeting was restricted to PIKOM members, which doesn’t make sense because most of the people in the room weren’t PIKOM members and instead were representatives of big tech companies like IBM, Oracle, Google, and Microsoft, or members of the Malaysian open-source community like Yusseri Yusoff and Dinesh Nair.


I was disappointed not to have an opportunity to discuss the technical details with YK, or with anyone for that matter: nobody else at the meeting had any opinions on the specific dispositions to Malaysia’s comments, as it turned out. But today I see that YK’s latest blog post mentions that he hopes somebody who attended the meeting will blog about it, so I’ll share my thoughts on the PIKOM meeting below. I think it would be great if Yusseri or Dinesh could share their perspective as well on the Open Malaysia blog or in the comments below.


Attendees


The people in attendance at this meeting fell into three groups: PIKOM members, the anti-OOXML crowd, and the pro-OOXML crowd. I’ll not try to name all the PIKOM members since I’m not sure I have everyone’s full names, but there were five or six of them present. For the anti-OOXML crowd, there were Hassan Saidin of IBM, Jeremy Allison of Google (co-creator of Samba), Shane Owenby of Oracle, Yusseri Yusoff (Omnilogic), and Dinesh Nair (QubeConnect). On the other side of the table were Dzahar Mansor (Microsoft Malaysia), Oliver Bell (Microsoft Singapore), Jan van de Veld (formerly the Secretary General of Ecma), and Dave Welsh and myself from Microsoft HQ.


Meeting Structure


PIKOM had a specific view of how to structure the meeting. They wanted Microsoft’s side to present arguments in favor of the dispositions to Malaysia’s comments, and then they wanted IBM’s side to present arguments against those dispositions. We started with a lively debate between PIKOM and Oracle/Google on this detail, because PIKOM wanted to restrict the discussion to Malaysia’s 23 comments, but Oracle and Google wanted to discuss other topics. A compromise was eventually reached: Microsoft’s side would present an overview of Malaysia’s comments and dispositions, and then in the second half of the meeting IBM’s side would present their view of the issues that they felt PIKOM should take into consideration.


So the first half of the meeting was me going through Malaysia’s 23 comments, the proposed changes from Malaysia, and how those dispositions turned out at the BRM. My colleague Dr. Dzahar helped out on some of the details, and we went through all of the comments in numeric order.


I couldn’t explain the reasoning behind Malaysia’s vote, of course. So on comments where Ecma had provided exactly what Malaysia asked for, but Malaysia vote Disapprove on the disposition, while others voted Approve and the disposition passed, all I could do was encourage PIKOM to try to get more information in the upcoming TC4 meeting. Some of these were very puzzling: for example, on MY-0008, they asked for a very specific editorial change, Ecma agreed to make the specific change, but Malaysia voted disapprove. The Oracle representative suggested later in the meeting that PIKOM should note that Malaysia’s voting changed to consistent disapproval at some point during the BRM, so apparently they felt this explaned such votes. It would have been great to hear from somebody involved in those voting decisions, because all we could do in this meeting was speculate.


Next up were comments from the IBM delegation. These were almost entirely from the Oracle and Google representatives, with a few observations later in the meeting from IBM and the Malaysian ISVs present. I thought we’d be getting into the technical details of Malaysia’s dispositions, but instead these comments were entirely about the process. I was surprised by this, but I’ve heard this has been typical in some of the Malaysian meetings on DIS29500: more focus on process than the technical details. I know YK has opinions on the technical details, so I wish he had been there to debate them at this point.


Most of the process concerns expressed by Oracle and Google were about the size of the specification and whether it could be reviewed properly in the roughly 450 days between its submission to ISO and the end of the process next week. I’ll not respond to those concerns here, as others with far more experience in these matters than me have weighed in on such claims countless times over the last year.


Oracle was quite clear in their view that this isn’t a vote on the DIS29500 specification, but instead a vote on the Fast-Track process. In fact, Shane Owenby said exactly that in his closing remarks: “you’re voting on the process here, and if you feel the process isn’t working then you should vote accordingly.” As I learned in a fun post by Yusseri last fall, this argument that if the process doesn’t make sense to you then you must approve DIS29500 is also known as the Chewbacca defense.


Who’s Lobbying Whom Again?


As a final thought, I’d like to respond to one thing YK speculated about in his blog post:

I don’t know what took place in the meeting, because I wasn’t there, but it seems Microsoft certainly pushed hard to justify the case for OOXML and why Malaysia should change its vote from “Abstain” to “Agree”.

Actually, the concept of changing Malaysia’s position was only raised by the non-Malaysian representatives of Oracle and Google who attended. They were quite forceful and emotional in their demands for a Disapprove vote from Malaysia, based on their organizations’ concerns about the Fast-Track process.


As for my own attempts to influence Malaysia’s position, I raised some questions about certain specific dispositions as mentioned above, and I was also the only person present who identified any specific shortcomings in Malaysia’s dispositions. I said I thought that 21 of Malaysia’s 23 comments have been addressed thoroughly, and that this showed a good-faith effort by Ecma to improve the spec based on Malaysia’s feedback (similar to the improvements Ecma made in response to US comments, which have led many in the US to switch to an Approve position on DIS29500 in recent months), but I thought that Malaysia should ask for more on MY-0006 and MY-0016 during maintenance. If anyone else present had an opinion about the specific dispositions to Malaysia’s specific comments, they didn’t express it during the meeting.


Yoon Kit, you should have been there!


Comments (21)

  1. Ian Easson says:

    The other shoe just dropped.

    The Malaysian Public Sector (MAMPU) just announced (Mar 19) that they are dropping Microsoft Office, in favour of ODF-based solutions.  The announcement is at:

    http://www.oscc.org.my/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=189&Itemid=128

    One does not have to be conspiracy-minded to see a connection between this and the odd behaviour of the Malaysian NB (suddenly voting against acceptance of their own comments re OOXML; organizing the PIKOM meeting and then having one of the primary people fail to turn up, etc.).  

  2. orlando says:

    Leave countries alone, if they want to use ODF just support it in Office.

    As a recent lady said ( European Commission ): talk is cheap.

    We wan’t facts !

  3. Doug,

    The very least you could do is contact PIKOM and find out whether it was indeed true that they restricted participation to members only. It sounds as if you are accusing YK of lying. In addition, you could have also checked whether they invited YK officially – he couldn’t just turn up uninvited, could he? Did Microsoft bother invite YK to the event?

    Secondly, the technical debate can be carried out by many means. If you wished to engage YK, email works fine, as does voice conferencing or even meeting face-to-face (considering Microsoft flew you in all the way from the States, might as well use the opportunity for something constructive). I’d personally have been happy to meet up with you had you given sufficient notice, as I would YK would have been too. Nobody knew you were going to be in Malaysia, until you turned up at PIKOM.

    Finally, it’s disingenuous for you to claim that most of the discussion at the Malaysian NB has revolved around process over technical details. I’ve spent countless hours going through Malaysia’s (and other countries) dispositions trying to improve the specification. YK has done the same. We have presented our findings to the TC and the findings were appreciated and well received. Were you there at the Malaysian NB meetings to be able to say that we did not focus on the technical issues? Was any Microsoft employee there? Was any Microsoft affliated member present (eg CompTIA, IASA etc)? Nil, null and zilch. You are hearing your information second hand at best and it completely does not do justice to the effort we have put in. Ask your Microsoft Malaysia counterparts for the presentations that the Malaysia NB has circulated to the committee members, then try commenting on the quality of our effort.

  4. Alice says:

    Since "OpenOffice.org 3 will offer native read and write support" of Open XML http://www.oooninja.com/2008/03/openofficeorg-30-new-features.html

    you have to ask the question what is really behind all the opposition to a new industry standard the world is adopting anyway.

  5. dmahugh says:

    Good grief, Ditesh.  You sound so angry and bitter, and I really have no idea why.

    My apologies for not giving you advance notice of my travel schedule, but we’ve never even met so it hadn’t occurred to me.  I was invited to come talk to PIKOM about Malaysia’s comments, which I had never studied before, so I hopped on a plane, spent a few hours studying them, and showed up at the meeting and talked about them.  Calmy and respectfully, much as Yusseri and Dinesh conducted themselves calmly and respectfully.

    I felt that WAS doing “something constructive.”  Sorry we don’t agree on that.

  6. dmahugh says:

    Oh, one other thing …regarding your suggestion I should have contacted PIKOM to "find out whether it was indeed true that they restricted participation to members only."  I met PIKOM members for the first time at a meeting attended mostly by people who weren’t PIKOM members.  I think it would have been rather odd for me to ask "is it true you’re restricting attendance here to PIKOM members?" 🙂

  7. Phil says:

    > I met PIKOM members for the first time at a meeting

    > attended mostly by people who weren’t PIKOM

    > members.  I think it would have been rather odd for

    > me to ask "is it true you’re restricting attendance here

    > to PIKOM members?" 🙂

    That is rather a convenient way to phrase it.

    In the post you appear sad that Yoon Kit was not at the event. A really concerned person would have asked the organizers (who invited you) when you would be meeting him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_tears

    Was it incompetence or malice?

  8. Dough, thanks the the nice report from PIKOM.  I’m kind of confused what the status of this meeting was.  Smoke-filled room kind of thing?  I guess YK either did or did not get an invite, but hey, what’s the point of a discussion in KL on the Malaysian view of OOXML when the room is filled with rowdy Malaysians who persistently raise technical issues.  Much better to keep the talking space for large US corporations.  (I’m not impressed that you report that IBM and Google and Microsoft dominate such meetings.  This is not a fight between US corporations but a fight between a global monopolist and the rest of the world.)

    Anyhow, reading Yusseri’s post in which he reminds us that "Microsoft loves you very much.", which I know to be true because they have blessed us over the decades, I want to return the favour.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcxBvrDysiU

  9. dmahugh says:

    Sorry, Phil, but I’m really busy today so you’re going to have to do better than that to get a response from me.

    Pieter, OTOH, despite the fact you’ve called me Dough (http://chilco.textdrive.com/~dmahugh/2008/01/18/dough/), I feel we’re musical peers (you just wait), so I’ll respond …

    Yes, it’s not a fight between US corporations, and that’s why I carefully followed the instructions from PIKOM about what they wanted us to discuss.  Microsoft was the only one of the four US corporations present to do so.

    OK guys, I’m checking out of this beautiful hotel and have a taxi waiting and a rather long trek back to Seattle ahead of me, so I may not get back to the fun for a while.

  10. Doug. sorry for the mistype.  I think my brain just did word completion on your name.  Looking forward to your musical response.  Have a nice flight.

  11. carlos says:

    " I was invited to come talk to PIKOM about Malaysia’s comments, which I had never studied before, so I hopped on a plane, spent a few hours studying them, and showed up at the meeting and talked about them.  "

    a perfect sketch of this DIS 29500 process: rushed work and pure lobbying ( technical quality? Microsoft/ECMA: no thanks, but we answered "agreed" to most comments !   )

  12. orlando says:

    "OK guys, I’m checking out of this beautiful hotel "

    ok, just do what you know: beautiful hotel visiting ( http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2008/02/27/relaxing-in-geneva.aspx )  and almost 0 productive ( technical ) work

    but please, let countries do his standardization work and judgemente ALONE and stop the lobbying tour !

    orlando

  13. Doug,

    Sorry, I posted that late at night and I was very tired.

    I believe PIKOM changed the rules very late to allow non-members to attend the meeting. Too bad really, we would liked to discuss the issues with you.

    Cheers.

  14. dmahugh says:

    No problem, Ditesh, I know the feeling.  Great to see you this morning; enjoy the laptop stickers. 🙂

    Carlos, based on the caliber of the technical debate at that meeting, I think I over-prepared, actually.

    Orlando, if your point is that you’re jealous of that massage, you should be — it was great!

  15. Doug Mahugh says:

    Man, what does a guy have to do to find a technical debate in Malaysia? I’ve spent 72 hours trying to

  16. Dinesh Nair says:

    Hi Doug,

    I’d like to correct a couple of misconceptions you seem to make in this blog post.

    Firstly, my presence there (and I believe Yusseri’s, Shane’s and Jeremy’s) wasn’t for IBM. We were all representing our own companies being OmniLogic (Yusseri), Google (Jeremy), Oracle (Shane) and QubeConnect (me). Only Hasan represented IBM. As such, to say that we were IBM representatives is a little far from the truth.

    Secondly, to suggest that there were no PIKOM members there is also not entirely true. QubeConnect, IBM and Oracle are full fledged PIKOM members, just as Microsoft is. Clearly, there were more PIKOM members on our side of the table then there was on the other.

    As to YK’s lack of presence, and as Ditesh noted, the rules to allow non-PIKOM members in were only changed at the last minute, and by then YK had already other engagements to honour, hence his lack of attendance.

  17. dmahugh says:

    Dinesh, some things don’t add up here.  For one thing, Google isn’t a PIKOM member, as you seem to know — so why were they there?

    I’ll tell you why I think they were there: because both IBM and Microsoft were told (by CJ) that they could bring a delegation of any five people of their choosing to attend the meeting, to present opposiing sides of the debate around DIS29500.  Are you saying that this is not true?

    As for YK’s attendance and other details of the IBM delegation, I won’t bother to recount all the  things we heard in the hours before the meeting, but suffice to say that the IBM delegation changed several times and Hassan himself seems to have been in two or three countries at the same time, if all of the things we were told Wednesday afternoon are true.

    As I said, some things don’t add up.  I’d be very interested in your thoughts on the above.

  18. anonymous says:

    Typical big company/country arrogance

    *We are better than everybody.. because we are somewhat of a monopoly*

    *Other countries should bow down to the big daddy of the software world because there is no other alternative software*

    *Other countries do it wrong ours does really well*

  19. Dinesh Nair says:

    Doug,

    At the onset, it was communicated to me (at least!) that only PIKOM members were to be allowed, hence the reason why YK was not able to come in. Apparently this was relaxed somewhat later on, by which time it was too late for folk like YK to change other plans made.

    And please, as I have stated above, calling it an IBM delegation does show some measure of disrespect to the other companies there, mine included, for we are not and neither have we ever had any commercial dealings with IBM.

    QubeConnect attended as a PIKOM member and as a company which is strongly involved in standards development, both globally and in Malaysia.

    As it was, the opposing side to DIS29500 consisted of disparate companies, 3 of whom were PIKOM members and 2 of whom were Malaysian companies. Comparatively, the supporting side of DIS29500 consisted of 4 representatives from one company (Microsoft) and an ex-(bang on table !)-ECMA official, none of whom were representing a Malaysian company.

    I would term it a diverse group of companies, local and MNC, against a single delegation from Microsoft.

  20. dmahugh says:

    Hi Dinesh,

    My understanding is that we were informed by PIKOM that IBM and Microsoft could each bring a group of 5 to present the case for or against DIS29500.  That’s what I heard beforehand, and there were 5 of you sitting together and expressing the same side of many issues, so I though that’s what was going on.

    Were you invited by the PIKOM people who set up the meeting with IBM and Microsoft, or by IBM directly?