.NET beats J2EE for development work in 2004


Do you still think .NET is “not yet?“  Forrester Research recently published a survey of 878 North American technology decision makers asking what their primary development environment for 2004 will be: .NET or J2EE.


The answer: Overall, the majority of respondents, 56%, say .NET is their primary development environment compared to 44% for J2EE.  While the numbers vary by industry, business services (64% .NET vs 36% J2EE) and the public sector (66% .NET versus 35% J2EE) have an even more pronounced .NET advantage.  This is pretty good considering we only shipped two years ago 🙂


My personal opinion is that this research highlights the importance of interoperability across platforms and how the industry should make platform interop as painless as possible.  If I’m a developer, I should at least know how to interoperate across platforms, but understanding both platforms will make me a much more valuable asset to my company. If you want to know how to get started interoperating across platforms, you should read the .NET and J2EE interoperability guide that PAG published or pick up a copy of Simon Guest’s .NET and J2EE Interoperability Toolkit.


PS: The full Forrester report is now available on MSDN (Question 3.2) thanks to Duncan and his blazingly fast publishing skills!

Comments (26)

  1. eee says:

    Since .NET includes VB, ASP and everything else, I’m surprised it’s even that close since there are lots more VB and ASP developers out there. This is not that big a deal, and in fact shows Java in a better light. The better comparison is C# versus Java, and in this case Java kills C# by a wide margin.

  2. [Smells like a troll but…]

    For clarity, .NET doesn’t include VB and ASP and J2EE != Java. While you might argue that people taking the survey don’t know the difference, I think that applies to both platforms. If you look at Amazon.com, under programming languages>Java, the 2nd best selling book in the Java category is "Programming Perl", while #6 is "JavaScript: the Definitive Guide".

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/new-for-you/top-sellers/-/books/3608/books/2/ref=pd_hn_ts_b/102-3513526-9890562

    Let’s take a step back and look at statistics from 2002, and you’ll see that J2SE/J2EE was used for the majority of development.

    "48.8 percent of respondents indicated that they are currently developing apps for either Java 2 Standard Edition or Java 2 Enterprise Edition, and 51.8 percent said that they expect to be building new apps for J2SE or J2EE within the next year."

    Source: http://www.sdtimes.com/news/057/story7.htm

    Or stats from Mark Driver of Gartner (June 2002)

    ‘….NET is supplanting Microsoft DNA, not Java. So by 2005 Java’s share grows as always (to 40 percent), .NET eats up Microsoft DNA’s share (to 40 percent), and the entrenched proprietary leftovers—4GL, AS/400, RPG, and mainframe COBOL—end up with the remaining 20 percent. No shop that’s already Java-established is contemplating .NET. Java is holding its own."

    Source: http://www.fawcette.com/reports/javaone/032702/javapro_presents/default.asp

    Yet, in the 2004 Forrester Research report, we see that not only that the majority of development will be on .NET, but that companies are either switching platforms or not continuing to develop on J2EE. This quote is taken directly from the Forrester report: "Surprisingly, only 55% of Sun’s customers said that they will use J2EE for the majority of their development work during the next 12 months".

    I still agree with Mark that we will have a two platform world, and his points that platform interoperability is of the utmost importance.

  3. eee says:

    Are you clueless or something? The guy obviously refers to VB.NET and ASP.NET which I’m sure is counted as part of ".NET". Thus, you have the entire VB and ASP .NET (of which a substantial, if not all, proportion of developers in are cannibalized from VB and ASP) . Therefore, this is not exactly a surprise that there are more VB.NET+ASP.NET developments going out there.

    So, in the end, what’s simply happening is that ".NET" is cannibalizing the old Microsoft VB and ASP developer population and shops.

    What’s more interesting would be whether C# is actually making any dent on the VB developers moving to Java (which was the purpose of C#), and according to the most recent surveys, up to 31% of disaffected VB developers still are planning on moving to Java (with a similar percent moving to C#)

    Also, if you look at jobs for C#, and popularity ranking of the languages, it basically has flat-lined since the hype in 2001/2002.

    Here’s an interesting link I read:

    http://www.jroller.com/page/kalimantan/20040510#java_accelerating_above_perl_php

  4. eee says:

    What’s even more interesting is how ".NET" actually passed J2EE a long time back, in Aug 2003 according to Microsoft itself. So, how many times is VB.NET+ASP.NET+ETC going to pass J2EE? LOL. J2EE was supposedly at 30% at the time, so I’d say a jump to 44% in less than a year is pretty good considering J2EE is mostly used at high-end, large corporations, whereas mostly small companies use the much cheaper ASP and VB.

    http://www.wininsider.com/news/?5611

    "When we started out a year ago, it was hard. We were still behind Java by a considerable margin. They were about 30 percent share. But we actually launched the product and made some amazing traction, started to catch up. Luckily, Java flattened out and we’ve actually passed Java usage with .Net usage, and this trend actually shows no sign of abating," said Rudder. "So overall, competitively, we’re doing fairly well."

  5. [eee said] Are you clueless or something? The guy obviously refers to VB.NET and ASP.NET which I’m sure is counted as part of ".NET". Thus, you have the entire VB and ASP .NET (of which a substantial, if not all, proportion of developers in are cannibalized from VB and ASP) . Therefore, this is not exactly a surprise that there are more VB.NET+ASP.NET developments going out there.

    [I respond]

    When I said VB and ASP, I was specifically differentiating them from their .NET counterparts, VB.NET and ASP.NET. I think we are in agreement then, the majority of development is not on Java/J2EE, but rather using Microsoft technology.

    [eee said]

    What’s more interesting would be whether C# is actually making any dent on the VB developers moving to Java (which was the purpose of C#), and according to the most recent surveys, up to 31% of disaffected VB developers still are planning on moving to Java (with a similar percent moving to C#)

    [I respond]

    Where did you get this statistic?

    [eee said]

    Also, if you look at jobs for C#, and popularity ranking of the languages, it basically has flat-lined since the hype in 2001/2002.

    [I respond]

    C# has not flat lined, what statistics are you looking at? I use Gartner which says that:

    – “By 2006, the C# community will dramatically increase, to 2.5 million developers”

    [I respond]

    1. You still haven’t explained why the majority of development is now .NET

    2. How do you account for the fact that ASP.NET now has more web sites then JSP?

    http://blogs.msdn.com/danielfe/archive/2004/03/24/95547.aspx

    3. Comparing Java to C# is a bit unfair as you are comparing multiple companies to one language. What would be interesting is to see a particular vendor stack, say IBM WebSphere versus Microsoft. J2EE is, after all, just a specification.

    4. Do you agree that since both platforms will co-exist, interoperability is important?

  6. eee says:

    YOU: "When I said VB and ASP, I was specifically differentiating them from their .NET counterparts, VB.NET and ASP.NET. I think we are in agreement then, the majority of development is not on Java/J2EE, but rather using Microsoft technology."

    As it was BEFORE .NET, since so many shops use the cheapo ASP and VB, so what’s the point? Things are basically the same as before except for marketingspeak. I’d say the better comparison would be PHP versus ASP.NET, and I’m sure PHP is beating the heck out of ASP.NET or ASP.

    YOU: "Where did you get this statistic?"

    Read it and weep:

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1054906,00.asp

    I’ll quote:

    ———————————————-

    A new survey of developers shows that existing Visual Basic developers are moving to Microsoft’s upgraded Visual Basic .Net as well as to Java and other language alternatives to build their applications going forward.

    A survey to be released Tuesday by Evans Data Corp., Santa Cruz, Calif., shows that 43 percent of developers surveyed who said they are Visual Basic developers, plan to cut back on their use of the popular Microsoft development platform.

    Of those saying they plan to reduce their use of Visual Basic, 37 percent said they plan to migrate to Visual Basic .Net.—largely from Visual Basic 6.0, the last non-.Net version of the product. Yet, 31 percent said they plan to move to Java and 39 percent said they will be migrating to C#, Microsoft’s Java-like language for building Internet applications and Web services.

    Although, Visual Basic is used by 52 percent of all software developers, this survey—which Evans Data completed in April—indicates that not only is the Visual Basic follow-on language popular amongst VB developers,but so is Java and C#.

    ———————————————————-

    YOU: "C# has not flat lined, what statistics are you looking at? I use Gartner which says that: – “By 2006, the C# community will dramatically increase, to 2.5 million developers” "

    A prediction from gartner is not exactly a current statistic. Take a look at the Job banks, or some language popularity stat like tiobe.com index (where c# has been at 2% for a while now, below PHP and Perl even, and has actually dropped to 1+% last i checked – but probably for arifact reasons).

    And, btw, since there are low numbers of jobs for C# (and it does not look like it’s increasing that fast), how exactly is the job market going to support 2.6 million developers? And where are these developers coming from? I’ll assume VB and ASP mostly, but I doubt that many people will actually seriously (as in job-serious, opposed to just neophyte testing and playing) move to C#.

    YOU: 1. You still haven’t explained why the majority of development is now .NET

    Hey, listen up. It’s because ".NET" is cannibalizing some of the VB and ASP developers and shops and projects out there. Is that so hard to understand? You’ll notice a decrease in VB development and ASP development and a rise in VB.NET and ASP.NET. So what’s your point?

    YOU: 2. How do you account for the fact that ASP.NET now has more web sites then JSP?

    http://blogs.msdn.com/danielfe/archive/2004/03/24/95547.aspx

    (1) ASP has always been a cheapo solution that is more a competitor of PHP than JSP. There are tons of small shops using ASP, and now ASP.NET, just as there are tons of small shops using PHP. Now, compare the number of PHP sites with ASP and you’ll see PHP is beating it handily.

    (2) That survey has a major flaw because most Java websites do not show "servlets" or even "jsp" (e.g. if it is using open source Struts framework). Thus you get a large undercounting of Java websites. It is an inherently flawed survey and drudging it up is somewhat pathetic.

    3. Comparing Java to C# is a bit unfair as you are comparing multiple companies to one language. What would be interesting is to see a particular vendor stack, say IBM WebSphere versus Microsoft. J2EE is, after all, just a specification.

    No, I’m comparing 1 language (C#) to one Java edition (J2EE), which is a bit more fair than comparing a hodge podge of languages cannibalising their old versions to one spec.

    4. Do you agree that since both platforms will co-exist, interoperability is important?

    Since Microsoft will probably switch to another big thing sometime in the near future, just to keep its hamsters (ahem -developers) running, what’s the point?

    http://www.angrycoder.com/article.aspx?cid=1&y=2003&m=7&d=17

  7. LOL,

    eee, you make me laugh 🙂

    [eee said]

    You’ll notice a decrease in VB development and ASP development and a rise in VB.NET and ASP.NET. So what’s your point?

    [I respond]

    My point, and the reason that I even mention this survey, is to shift perception about J2EE adoption. While you and I are in agreement that the majority of development work is on .NET (which you state is from our old developer base), most people don’t believe this and they still think that J2EE is where the majority of work is. This is a perception issue that we’re trying to fight, and we publicize independent research so that other people understand that more companies are choosing .NET over J2EE, with even larger majorities in certain industries. For some people, this research is eye-opening.

    To your other point about jobs, given that the majority of development work is .NET, wouldn’t developers want to spend their limited time/resources studying technology that has the most jobs and where most of the work is going?

    [eee says]

    (1) ASP has always been a cheapo solution that is more a competitor of PHP than JSP. There are tons of small shops using ASP, and now ASP.NET, just as there are tons of small shops using PHP. Now, compare the number of PHP sites with ASP and you’ll see PHP is beating it handily.

    (2) That survey has a major flaw because most Java websites do not show "servlets" or even "jsp" (e.g. if it is using open source Struts framework). Thus you get a large undercounting of Java websites. It is an inherently flawed survey and drudging it up is somewhat pathetic.

    [I respond]

    I may be misinterpreting your comment, but you seem to be saying that ASP.NET is inferior or its only used for small development. You can find ASP.NET running both small company sites and high traffic web sites like dell.com, monster.com, msn.com, Home Shopping Network, match.com and plenty more.

    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/FindCaseStudyResults.aspx?SearchTypeId=0&TecTaxID=1202&PubDate=0

    I agree that the netcraft numbers do have flaws, but unfortunately there isn’t any definitive research on the web development market, and maybe that’s because of the complexities involved in accurately measuring it.

    [eee says]

    Since Microsoft will probably switch to another big thing sometime in the near future, just to keep its hamsters (ahem -developers) running, what’s the point?

    [I respond]

    I think there’s lots of value in making interoperability a big priority, but you don’t see the value. Fair enough, that’s your viewpoint.

    What’s interesting is that we get feedback from customers that are angry that we haven’t released new product versions soon enough, then we also get feedback that says we are changing too much. I don’t know what the right answer is here, but anecdotally, everyone that has played with C# 2.0 and the alpha versions of Visual Studio was pretty excited about the next release.

  8. eee says:

    YOU: eee, you make me laugh 🙂

    No problem. As product manager for a product that did not live up to expectations, I’m sure you need all the humor you can get.

    YOU: My point, and the reason that I even mention this survey, is to shift perception about J2EE adoption….This is a perception issue that we’re trying to fight,

    Which people think there are more J2EE deployments than VB or ASP? AS far as I can figure, everyone knows VB is the most used language out there. This is marketingtalk, easily vaporized at a moment’s notice. One thing I do agree on is that Microsoft has clouded the issue by simply lumping together every single language it has under ".NET". Very good marketing move for duping management and some developers (ok, many developers), but the results will most likely be short-lived, since there is no mass movement away from other non-Microsoft languages to .NET as far as I can see.

    In the end, the reality will be that Microsoft has about the same number of shops using .NET as the combined shops and developers using its old abandoned languages and technologies. And this is not good enough, not even close, because the world is rapidly catching up to using open source technologies instead of expensive proprietary solutions. NET was supposed to be Microsoft’s salvation, but it may end up to be just another marketing spin with not enough concrete results.

    YOU: I may be misinterpreting your comment, but you seem to be saying that ASP.NET is inferior or its only used for small development. You can find ASP.NET running both small company sites and high traffic web sites like dell.com, monster.com, msn.com, Home Shopping Network, match.com and plenty more.

    Yep, you misunderstood. ASP can be used for high traffic areas, but the vast majority of sites using ASP/ASP.NET are smaller sites. eBay dropped .NET for J2EE simply because most large corporations, the target of J2EE, realize that for very high volume sites, J2EE is it. That may simply be marketing-perception in the end, but it definitely is a pervasove perception, and that’s good enough.

    YOU: I agree that the netcraft numbers do have flaws, but unfortunately there isn’t any definitive research on the web development market, and maybe that’s because of the complexities involved in accurately measuring it.

    Then why pass along flawed research? As product manager in a large corporation, it’s not in your best interest to bandy about research you yourself admit is flawed.

    YOU: I think there’s lots of value in making interoperability a big priority, but you don’t see the value. Fair enough, that’s your viewpoint.

    My viewpoint is that just like web services, interoperability is one big cloudy issue that is vaguely defined and really not a big agenda for most shops, but another marketing initiative aimed at getting customers to buy more and more software.

    I noticed you did not address the treadmill issue. Fair enough, but I’ve seen Microsoft technologies come and go (e.g. COM, DNA), and I’m pretty sure Java will still be growing and expanding strongly when Microsoft transitions to the next big thing, dragging along its hapless developers, some of whom spent years learning the last big thing, now suddenly finding out they’re fighting for jobs with people half their age and who know as much as they do about about the next big thing.

  9. I really don’t want to argue, you have your opinion, I have mine, we agree in certain places and disagree in others.

    [eee said]

    No problem. As product manager for a product that did not live up to expectations, I’m sure you need all the humor you can get.

    [I respond]

    I’m sorry if this came out the wrong way, I didn’t mean it to come out negatively, you just seem very passionate about this, I just thought "read it and weep" was funny. If you took offensive, I apologize.

    Anyways, C# is a great language and the feedback we’ve received has been overwhelmingly positive. The language itself has garnered interest from academia, open source (mono, dotgnu) and even Java developers admit that there are valuable features. While I won’t go so far as to say everything is perfect, the general consensus among the community is that C# is a well-designed, well thought out language.

    Miguel de Icaza

    http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/07/09/icaza.html

    Rick Ross

    http://www.javalobby.org/nl/archive/jlnews_20031104o.html

    and many, many more sites.

    [eee said]

    Which people think there are more J2EE deployments than VB or ASP? AS far as I can figure, everyone knows VB is the most used language out there. This is marketingtalk, easily vaporized at a moment’s notice.

    [I respond]

    It sounds like you don’t believe it if you say that .NET having the majority of development is "marketingtalk", but in your other posts you say that .NET development is leading.

    [eee said]

    One thing I do agree on is that Microsoft has clouded the issue by simply lumping together every single language it has under ".NET". Very good marketing move for duping management and some developers (ok, many developers), but the results will most likely be short-lived, since there is no mass movement away from other non-Microsoft languages to .NET as far as I can see.

    In the end, the reality will be that Microsoft has about the same number of shops using .NET as the combined shops and developers using its old abandoned languages and technologies. And this is not good enough, not even close, because the world is rapidly catching up to using open source technologies instead of expensive proprietary solutions. NET was supposed to be Microsoft’s salvation, but it may end up to be just another marketing spin with not enough concrete results.

    [I respond]

    Personally, I agree with you that using .NET for everything is totally confusing, and we’ve changed based on the confusion.

    Back to your point on macro usage, let’s say we have the same # of shops from our old technologies, if that number is higher then the number of Java development as you believe, then we’re winning. If there are more developers working on our technology then our competitors, then we’re winning.

    I don’t want to dissect everything you said here, but I’ll make it short and sweet:

    – You can download a C# compiler for free on MSDN, although you do need a copy of Windows to run our implementation. If you wanted fully free C#, the Mono project would probably be the way to go (in beta 1), or the Shared Source CLI for research projects is another option. Both Mono and SSCLI run on Linux.

    – C# and CLI are both ECMA and ISO standards. Java is not an open standard with change instead being driven through the JCP, much to the unhappiness of the open source movement.

    http://slashdot.org/articles/04/02/14/1819249.shtml?tid=108&tid=126&tid=156

    [eee said]

    Yep, you misunderstood. ASP can be used for high traffic areas, but the vast majority of sites using ASP/ASP.NET are smaller sites. eBay dropped .NET for J2EE simply because most large corporations, the target of J2EE, realize that for very high volume sites, J2EE is it. That may simply be marketing-perception in the end, but it definitely is a pervasove perception, and that’s good enough.

    [I respond]

    eBay was never using .NET, they had an ISAPI C++ application running on Windows, and they selected a solution before .NET 1.0 was released. There are plenty of reasons for why they chose the way they did. I would say that IBM is one of the key reasons they chose J2EE as they wanted a vested relationship with a partner who could support them. They didn’t choose a technology in isolation, they wanted someone who was willing to put skin in the game, and IBM is a great relationship company, I know I used to work there. You may be surprised to know that eBay is also a great Microsoft customer, in fact you can go to netcraft and see that even though they are running J2EE, they still run on Windows and have upgraded to Windows Server 2003.

    For other proof of adoption, port80 lists Microsoft as the #1 web server for corporate web sites:

    http://www.port80software.com/surveys/top1000webservers/ and it continues to increase.

    [eee said]

    YOU: I agree that the netcraft numbers do have flaws, but unfortunately there isn’t any definitive research on the web development market, and maybe that’s because of the complexities involved in accurately measuring it.

    Then why pass along flawed research? As product manager in a large corporation, it’s not in your best interest to bandy about research you yourself admit is flawed.

    [I respond]

    Like I said, there isn’t much research on web technology used (as opposed to web server) so I mentioned it with the caveat. It is also one of the pieces of research that is held out by open source developers to show how open source technology is being used widely. When we reference the research, the flaws are pointed out, when others do, they see it as proof.

    [eee said]

    YOU: I think there’s lots of value in making interoperability a big priority, but you don’t see the value. Fair enough, that’s your viewpoint.

    My viewpoint is that just like web services, interoperability is one big cloudy issue that is vaguely defined and really not a big agenda for most shops, but another marketing initiative aimed at getting customers to buy more and more software.

    [I respond]

    The integration business is huge, multi-billion dollar business. A Morgan Stanley CIO Survey of Fortune 1000 CIO’s showed integration as their "#1 concern, priority". How does your company order supplies? How does your company manage payroll, 401K, etc? Any company in manufacturing, finance, telecom, insurance, and many others all have integration issues.

    [eee said]

    I noticed you did not address the treadmill issue. Fair enough, but I’ve seen Microsoft technologies come and go (e.g. COM, DNA), and I’m pretty sure Java will still be growing and expanding strongly when Microsoft transitions to the next big thing, dragging along its hapless developers, some of whom spent years learning the last big thing, now suddenly finding out they’re fighting for jobs with people half their age and who know as much as they do about about the next big thing.

    [I respond]

    What’s to respond to, yeah, we have multiple versions of technology that evolve based on customer feedback. Our continuous goal is to simplify and make developing applications easier over time. This is all driven by feedback from our customers. We have execs who demo VisiCalc on Longhorn to show how existing code can still move forward into the future. It still works. No one is forcing customers to upgrade to the latest technology, or migrate their technology for that matter. As I said before, customers are really excited about adopting the technology coming in Visual Studio 2005. Some of the items just totally blow the competition out the door. Say one year from now, a new project comes up, you can still use classic ASP for it, or you could see if you can take advantage of new tools in VS ’05 that will make you have a fully completed application in 1/2 the time. Java runs into the same issue, with Java Server Faces technology coming, existing struts applications are seen as inferior. If you are a Java developer, you can continue to use JSP, but you can get a lot more done using struts today, and use JSF in the future.

    http://www.dotnetguru.org/us/articles/JSFvsWebForms/JSFvsWebForms.html

    http://www.ociweb.com/jnb/jnbAug2003.html

  10. SrinasV says:

    Damn Dan, I’m convinced! Mono going to beta 1 is pretty cool. Its funny to read all the javalobby comments on C#. How long until Java starts copying all the features in C# 2.0?

  11. Jay says:

    I think the prevalent thinking right now is that C# has missed the mark already. There may have been concern a year or two ago, but the fact is Java programmers seem more concerned nowadays about EJB3 vs JDO or Swing vs SWT, or what Hani thinks in the BileBlog. Just check out http://www.theserverside.com or Javablogs.com.

    Most J2EE developers do not seem to support open sourcing Java either, but the impact of J2EE on open source is tremendous anyway, what with Java tools like Eclipse/SWT, JBOSS, ANT, Tomcat, Struts, Tapestry and others having very strong penetration in the open source community, as well as very heavy support from open source organizations like Apache, which is getting ready to release its new J2EE application server.

    In the end, whether Java is open sourced or not (a big disaster for Microsoft if it does), the two communities will probably continue to provide strength to one another. As mentioned in one blog, there are more Java projects in the premier open source repository sourceforge.net than PHP or Perl!

  12. Jay says:

    By the way, one other thing, I disagree about the poster’s comparison of the forceable movement of VB developers and COM developers to dotnet to the rise of new technologies (which are still Java) in Java. I have several VB friends, and at least 2/3 of them started learning Java after complaining vehemently about VB.NET. Search the newsgroups and discussion groups and you will see the same thing. AS far as I can tell, there is no big arguments going on about JSF or Struts. In fact, these are simply additions to the current technologies – they are still Java in other words.

  13. Jay says:

    Well, I’ve read some of the previous comments and I must say the level of "skewed" interpretations is pretty strong.

    Anyways, another thing that I saw was your reliance on point80 (?) for their survey of IIs versus Apache usage in the top 1000 sites (in the US?). In fact, there have been some talk that (1) This is another organization funded by Microsoft; (2) It only looks at the main server, even though there may be other servers in a farm; (3) Bad data has sometimes been seen – e.g. at one time, they were reporting IIs 6 usage in companies well before IIS6 was released.

    Another look at HTTPS usage shows that Apache is ahead 48% to 42%. And of course, if you look at the entire internet (48 million sites surveyed), it’s not even a competition anymore, with Apache steadily reaching towards 70% of all web servers.

    The point is though that Apache usage will only grow with time, even in top organizations, as they realize it’s free, much more stable than IIs and more secure, and of course, it’s part of the Linux brigade. All Microsoft is can do is a holding action against it.

    You’ll of course disagree, but what can I say, that’s the truth. Closing your eyes to it is similar to Netscape not figuring out that by bundling IE with Windows desktop, you effectively killed them.

    Bye!

  14. [Jay said]

    I think the prevalent thinking right now is that C# has missed the mark already. There may have been concern a year or two ago, but the fact is Java programmers seem more concerned nowadays about EJB3 vs JDO or Swing vs SWT, or what Hani thinks in the BileBlog. Just check out http://www.theserverside.com or Javablogs.com.

    [I respond]

    Missed the mark? Then how do you explain the javalobby thread on wanting .NET features for Java? Or this story from news.com highlighting how IBM and JBoss are worried about the success of C#?

    http://news.com.com/2100-1007_3-5081831.html

    "Indeed, JBoss’s interest in making AOP more widely available to Java developers through standardization stems from Microsoft’s success with C#, a language that emulates many of the qualities of Java. JBoss executives said Microsoft’s multiyear effort to supplant Java with C# is paying off.

    "JBoss and IBM share a common concern over the popularity of C# over Java," Bickel said. "

    [Jay said]

    In the end, whether Java is open sourced or not (a big disaster for Microsoft if it does), the two communities will probably continue to provide strength to one another. As mentioned in one blog, there are more Java projects in the premier open source repository sourceforge.net than PHP or Perl!

    [I respond]

    I think all communities learn from one another, and that’s a good thing for everyone involved. Lots of C# developers use unit testing (nUnit) and build systems (nAnt) that are open source projects on SourceForge. Since you mentioned SourceForge, I really don’t think the total # of open source projects statistic you mentioned is a good representation. The reason I say this is that if you search for Java projects, you’ll notice that only 3,211 of the 12,000+ Java projects have *any* activity percentile or activity ranking, meaning that 70%+ are inactive. You could also argue that a better measure of open source projects wouldn’t be PHP & Perl, but rather the total # of C or C++ projects which dominate all other SourceForge language projects .

    [Jay said]

    I have several VB friends, and at least 2/3 of them started learning Java after complaining vehemently about VB.NET. Search the newsgroups and discussion groups and you will see the same thing. AS far as I can tell, there is no big arguments going on about JSF or Struts

    [I respond]

    What were the complaints about VB.NET? What feature(s) in Java did they need that weren’t in VB.NET? What tool(s) do your friends use for developing Java applications? On the JSF versus Struts thing, I was responding to the upgrade cycle argument, not lambasting change. Technology changes and evolves, whether it is MS technology or not.

    [Jay says]

    Anyways, another thing that I saw was your reliance on point80 (?) for their survey of IIs versus Apache usage in the top 1000 sites (in the US?). In fact, there have been some talk that (1) This is another organization funded by Microsoft; (2) It only looks at the main server, even though there may be other servers in a farm; (3) Bad data has sometimes been seen – e.g. at one time, they were reporting IIs 6 usage in companies well before IIS6 was released.

    Another look at HTTPS usage shows that Apache is ahead 48% to 42%. And of course, if you look at the entire internet (48 million sites surveyed), it’s not even a competition anymore, with Apache steadily reaching towards 70% of all web servers.

    [I respond]

    My reliance? I’ve said multiple times that there isn’t definitive data on the subject matter. If you have some other data, let me know.

    I can only assume that the HTTPS and web data you show is from http://www.netcraft.com. As I have commented earlier on this thread, the data is flawed, and even you admit that this data isn’t reliable as "it only looks at the main server" so you can’t make definitive statements based on this info.

    [Jay says]

    You’ll of course disagree, but what can I say, that’s the truth. Closing your eyes to it is similar to Netscape not figuring out that by bundling IE with Windows desktop, you effectively killed them.

    [I respond]

    I do agree with you, given the small amount of information we have on web site market data, Apache does lead IIS on general site usage. Our goal isn’t to just "close our eyes" and go away, its about solving our customers problems better then anyone else in the industry.

    Back to my integration mantra, the goal at Microsoft is to help our customers. Realistically, our customers run heterogenous environments, they aren’t all Linux, or IBM, or Sun or whatever technology, they are using a mix of all of them. Maybe their entire server farm is Linux, but chances are they have a legacy mainframe somewhere, and at least some Windows desktops, and they can’t assume that their partners are all running the exact same set of technology they are, or the company that they merged with is running the same technology they are. So how does Microsoft help? Given that our customers are going to be running in a heterogenous environment, our goal is to make it as painless as possible to interoperate in a heterogenous world. That’s our unique value and why we are investing so much in this area.

  15. Jay says:

    Hello:

    (1) With regards to C# and its impact on Java, the very good thing for Java is that it has started to implement some parts of C#. This is actually bad for C#, since any perceived disadvantage you have disappears. Also, I have been in touch with the Java community for years now, and the comments on C# nowadays are perhaps 99% less than what it was in 2001/2002. After some concern during those years because of the hype, C# gets mentioned once in a while, mainly when there is political infighting going on among the different Java groups, or when a group wants to try to steer the community towrads their own technology or thinking (e.g. JBOSS/IBM trying to push AOP in 2003). Hype goes both ways, and the realization (which is shown by surveys of popularity and jobs available) that C# is just another c/c++ (and not even close to as popular) has slowly sunk in.

    (2) With regards to the activity of projects in sourceforge, if you look at Perl or PHP or C/C++, you’ll probably see the same percentage of inactivity, so that does not in any way negate the fact Java is still much more popular than Perl or PHP or anything else other than C/C++ (which has a much longer history).

    (3) With regards to HTTPS, that is from securityspace, which looked at a very large number of big sites for HTTPS activity.

    (4) With regards to VB.NET, this was in 2002 or 2003, and as far as I remember, one said he did not like the fact VB.NET is so radically diffrent from VB, it seemed like he had to learn completely new languge, so he figured it might as well be Java (with a little prodding from me). Another said the newsgroups were buzzing with people who said Microsoft had abandoned VB, and that sucked. It’s too bad I didn’t have that treadmill link above at the time.

    I did find something though that might explain it:

    http://archive.devx.com/free/hotlinks/2001/ednote011901.asp

    One Quote and complaint among many:

    "Here’s the real source of the complaints I described at the start. VB.NET and the .NET Framework are so different from VB6 and the Windows API that existing VB experts have been tossed back into the general .NET programmer melting pot—and some of them don’t like it there one bit. While I sympathize with this sudden loss of expertise,"

    Now, this is something Java developers cannot really complain about. Instead of being drastically forced to learn a new language and losing all their former expertise, you get a gradual addition of capabilities over time.

    So, there is one explanation why so many VB developers switch to Java instead of C#.

  16. Jay says:

    "Given that our customers are going to be running in a heterogenous environment, our goal is to make it as painless as possible to interoperate in a heterogenous world. That’s our unique value and why we are investing so much in this area."

    Well, then I guess if you care so much about your customers, then let them use J2EE. That way, everything will integrate well with everything else 😉

  17. Joku says:

    – Do you still think .NET is “not yet?“

    Well forgetting all the research, giving my entirely subjective personal impression

    .NET is now but not _here_ atleast in great numbers. From the open job offerings I just checked there was .NET/VB.NET/C# mentioned in around 10% of those which can be compared to each other. There’s definetely growth, last I checked (long ago) there were none to speak of. Actually I’m surprised there’s even that 10% (rough impression I got, not calculated) as _here_ we are notoriously slow in finding any use for new technologies (except for cellphones and text messaging).

  18. Jay says:

    Well, a lot of the "new" jobs in ".NET" are simply the result of jobs lost in VB and ASP. So yes, in the long run, that Job market will grow larger as more jobs are lost on the VB and old-Mcrosoft tech end.

  19. Jay says:

    Oh, and it turns out the base for the survey above is of only 322 companies, most of whom are doing mixed work, and these are just opinions, not actual usage…so, it points again to the question: what’s your point? since most companies were doing their work using VB/ASP before, it simply makes sense for most to drop those and go to vb.net/asp.net

  20. My point is that .NET is succeeding in the marketplace. This is just one proof point and it’s particularly important because the survey is on enterprise customers. According to the competition, Microsoft doesn’t play in the enterprise. This proves otherwise and shows that customers are making a future investment in .NET technology. This is just one proof point among many. .NET is successful and will continue to be. The whole world is *not* going to Java, and this is just another way to open people’s eyes to the popularity of .NET.

  21. [href=http://www.dmoz.net.cn/ wangzhidaquang]

    [href=http://www.86dmoz.com/ jingpingwangzhi]

    [href=http://movie.kamun.com/ mianfeidianying]

    [href=http://www.kamun.com/ dianyingxiazai]

    [href=http://music.kamun.com/ MP3 free download]

    [href=http://www.pc530.net/ diannaoaihaozhe]

    [href=http://www.5icc.com/ duangxingcaixingxiazha]

    [href=http://www.dianyingxiazai.com/ dianyingxiazai]

    [href=http://www.yinyuexiazai.com/ yinyuexiazai]

  22. Dr. No says:

    Rank-and-file procedural programmers are dying off in the business world. OO has taken its lumps; and we’ve learned from it. It’s time to move on to the next great thing (AOP?).

    C# and Java are just languages. It’s the overall architecture of the platform that carries weight. So what’s the point of debating anything else under the ".Net beats J2EE" heading?

    The current offshoring phenom has all but cinched the acceptance of POJO+Hibernate et al/J2EE in many companies — particularly in part because Linux servers appear to be popping up at many MS sites (at least in my area).

    .Net has one app server, one OS and one IDE… should I repeat that? It sounds really inane, doesn’t it. I find that the only managers who like to be locked into something like that are the ones who need to be spoon-fed; especially when it comes time to explaining why shit breaks.

  23. Rajesh says:

    j2ee &.net which one is best? &which one is mostly used in world?