Fun fun fun…

Every day we post something to the IE team blog about standards is a fun day. 

The fundamental point of Markus' post seems to still be getting lost, which was supposed to be "don't use CSS hacks unless you really, really know what you're doing, and are ready to rewrite your hacks every release when bugs go away."  Use something that has a sane versioning story, like conditional comments, or (gasp, dare I say it) Javascript browser detection.

"wondering" wrote: "your company is still evil, greedy, selfish and just capitalistic, with no sense of fairness, justice and humanness at all. ... but for the people that work at microsoft: you guys are the company, and you ppl could do much more good for your own sake and the sake of your company and this planet as whole. "

By doing what?  By making the browser that 85% of your customers use better and more standard compliant?  Oh wait, that's what I'm doing.  Sometimes, I really wish I could just time warp the entire world back to 1997, and leave them to it. 

So let's get to the point.  Why are so many people fired up against IE?  Well, a bunch of them are simply Microsoft haters.  I've never understood the perverse mentality that goes and hangs out on a product group just to complain, but there you go.  Not all of them are, though. 

The SANE reason to be frustrated with Microsoft is because we haven't updated the rendering engine after IE6 shipped in 2001 (though we were the best, most standards-compliant system around on Windows at the time, and had the Mac sewn up with Mac IE).  That's a long time.  Hey, at this point all I can say is mea culpa -and move on.  I understand and empathize with your frustration.  The IE team is running as hard as we can to make it better for everyone now.  IE isn't going to go away as a platform that web designers have to contend with, so help us make it great for you.  (Remembering, of course, that there are limits to how far we can bend time, space, and our team.)  Give us feedback that helps us prioritize, and help remove content roadblocks that prevent us from getting better.  And hey, if you're a good developer, tester or program manager, drop me a resume (cwilso at (where else?)  We're hiring.

Comments (8)

  1. all web (app) developers says:

    4 words.

    "Release the PUBLIC Beta"

    As soon as you do this, developers can actually see their options, test their code, and *accept* this new Browser. At the moment, by hiding in the dark, all you gain is user/developer frustration.

    Every day I hear about companies banning the use of IE, for security issues… the longer you hold out, the harder it will be to convince people to come back.


    All developers

  2. Garry Trinder says:

    I hear you loud and clear, and I’ve been trying to get us to do exactly that. There’s a lot more to it (impact on support and feedback loops, primarily) than just getting a build up on a server. I still want this to happen, and we’re trying.

  3. Thomas Tallyce says:

    Chris, thanks for this post.

    Please see my post at:

    in reply to yours.

    Many web-devs are genuinely excited to see that real progress is apparently being made to the Trident engine.

    Sure, there are lots of idiots posting to the IE blog, but they are expressing (in somewhat crude terms) their frustration at what they have had to put up with in the last few years. Literally millions and millions of person-hours must have been wasted trying to code around Trident/IE6’s problems, and you can’t expect people to simply be forgiving just like that.

    However, signs of recent progress are really encouraging. Please just encourage your fellow IEBlog bloggers to make the point of what they are posting really clear, and ideally delay articles like the one most recently posted, asking for an actual call for action, until there is a public beta2 available. As far as I can see, any sane webdev should need to do practically nothing when that is released, because they’ll have used proper hack management techniques.

  4. Lionel says:

    Chris Wilson wrote:

    >I hear you loud and clear, and I’ve been

    >trying to get us to do exactly that.

    Quite good!

    Thomas Tallyce wrote:

    >Please just encourage your fellow IEBlog

    >bloggers to make the point of what they are

    >posting really clear

    While I found Markus’ post clear enough, I agree that it has generated quite a lot of confusion, and that a follow-up/clarification would be a good idea.

    Anyway, I support this.

    >any sane webdev should need to do practically

    >nothing when that is released, because

    >they’ll have used proper hack management


    I think you are very optimistic, here. Let’s hope you’re right.

    Some people on the IE blog requested a bug tracking system. I wonder whether you’ve considered making available something like

    ? (I can see some possible problems, especially the amount of bogus bug reports, and the amount of work such a thing could generate, but still I would like that).

  5. Thomas Tallyce says:

    > Some people on the IE blog requested a bug tracking system.

    Frankly, I think the IE team are well aware of most of the bugs that IE has. Such a system would just become overwhelmed with duplicate reports and people slagging IE off.

    The IE wiki on Channel9 is probably a better option at the moment, while the huge backlog of IE problems are sorted out:

    and which seems to be producing nicely-categorised summaries of what the problems are.

  6. Joshua Lowe says:


    You just have to ignore the zealots. I myself am a loyal firefox on linux user, but I’m excited about the progress that is being made on IE7. It is understandable that the hacks will no longer work for IE7, and that is as it should be. If there are rendering issues that still exist, then conditional statements are going to be necessary.

    I’m looking forward to the public beta release so I can check out the changes. Keep up the good work.

  7. Dark Phoenix says:

    Well, I’m just glad to learn that IE is getting some updates. I know I’m not the only one who’s tired of having to add in hacks to make IE render things right.

    BTW, I was wondering what the position is on CSS3 Selectors? I know CSS3 in general is out (not even finished), but FWIU the Selectors draft should be finished before/around when CSS2.1 is.

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