Metro style browsing and plug-in free HTML5


One of the first things a lot of folks will try after installing the developer preview of Windows 8 will be the IE10 browser—the most used tool in Windows. IE 10 in the preview is Platform Preview 3 of IE 10.  You can read on the IE blog about the HTML 5 engine work we’re doing. This post is about a big change in Metro style IE, which is the plug-in free experience. In Windows 8, IE 10 is available as a Metro style app and as a desktop app. The desktop app continues to fully support all plug-ins and extensions. The HTML5 and script engines are identical and you can easily switch between the different frame windows if you’d like. Metro style IE provides all the main navigation keyboard shortcuts and mouse support you’ve come to expect—creating tabs, moving between tabs, closing tabs, entering addresses, searching, and more. I’m using this browser full–time, and given the amount of time I spend in Windows Phone, the same experience and use of touch is definitely a plus. But you can decide on what works best for you, and not compromise. Dean Hachamovitch, who leads the IE team, wrote this post.  
–Steven

For the web to move forward and for consumers to get the most out of touch-first browsing, the Metro style browser in Windows 8 is as HTML5-only as possible, and plug-in free. The experience that plug-ins provide today is not a good match with Metro style browsing and the modern HTML5 web.

Running Metro style IE plug-in free improves battery life as well as security, reliability, and privacy for consumers. Plug-ins were important early on in the web’s history. But the web has come a long way since then with HTML5. Providing compatibility with legacy plug-in technologies would detract from, rather than improve, the consumer experience of browsing in the Metro style UI. 

The reality today is that sites are already rapidly engineering for a plug-in free experience. Google, for example, recently launched their HTML5 YouTube site for phones. A previous IE blog post discussed how plug-in free sites are becoming more mainstream, and what sites can do to run plug-in free. We examined the use of plug-ins across the top 97,000 sites world-wide, a corpus which includes local sites outside the US in significant depth. Many of the 62% of these sites that currently use Adobe Flash already fall back to HTML5 video in the absence of plug-in support. When serving ads in the absence of plug-ins, most sites already perform the equivalent of this fallback, showing that this approach is practical and scalable. There’s a steep drop-off in plug-in usage after Flash, with one control used on 2% of sites and a small collection of controls used on between 0.5% and 0.75% of sites.

On Windows 8, consumer sites and “line of business” applications that require legacy ActiveX controls will continue to run in the desktop browser, and people can tap “Use Desktop View” in Metro style IE for these sites. For what these sites do, the power of HTML5 makes more sense, especially in Windows 8 apps. 

Plug-in free browsers today already deliver great experiences with well-authored HTML5 content. These experiences get even better with touch in Metro style IE.

Thanks –

Dean

P.S.  Below, you can see how IE adjusts its behavior site by site, as developers make the transition and stop relying on plug-ins for functionality available in HTML5 (for example, video or XHR). Most sites work fine in IE without plug-ins; others work fine in IE when IE identifies itself as another browser or runs the site in a different mode. As we work with the web developer community, IE continues to use the Compatibility View (CV) list to keep sites working for consumers.

Here’s a fragment of the CV list that went live with the developer preview build of Windows 8 at the BUILD conference:

<?xml version=”1.0″ encoding=”utf-8″ ?>
<iecompatlistdescription>
    <version>1152921504606910005</version>
    <ttl>1</ttl>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE7″>monster.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE7″>pbskids.org</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE8″ uaStringImmersive=”iPad”>nate.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE8″ versionVector=”8″ uaString=”8″>bankofamerica.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE8″ versionVector=”8″ uaString=”8″>wellsfargo.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE8″>7-eleven.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE9″ versionVector=”9″ uaString=”9″>sportsillustrated.cnn.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”EmulateIE9″>lowes.com</domain>
    <domain docMode=”IE9″>github.com</domain>
    <domain featureSwitch=”createElementWithMarkup:false”>dodge.com</domain>
    <domain featureSwitch=”createElementWithMarkup:false”>krispykreme.com</domain>
    <domain featureSwitch=”createElementWithMarkup:false”>youtube.com</domain>
    <domain uaStringImmersive=”Firefox 5″>tv.slashgear.com</domain>
    <domain uaStringImmersive=”iPad”>mashable.com</domain>
    <domain uaStringImmersive=”iPad”>tested.com</domain>
    <domain>about.zappos.com</domain>
    <domain>airborne.gogoinflight.com</domain>
    <domain>aol.com</domain>
</iecompatlistdescription>

Comments (253)

  1. bob says:

    I realize that this is a bit of a stretch when talking about plug ins and web browsing but what of plugins to the browser ?

    Will IE10 be the IE browser that promotes functionality plugins and the like, perhaps through the Windows Marketplace, allowing possibly in the future for extensions such as greasemonkey,, adblock and the like?

  2. Jack says:

    This is great — I'm tired of Flash hangs and crashes and pain. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

  3. @Bob says:

    Bob, no need for adblockplus… IE9 has tracking protection and a lot of the lists are shared (e.g. look here: easylist.adblockplus.org/en).

  4. Ben Smith says:

    So now Microsoft is developing different version/editions of Internet Explorer as well? When will they learn.

  5. @Ben says:

    Ben you ignorant troll. Read the previous post. There's one IE engine, two experiences. Duh.

  6. jjMustang says:

    What about apps like XMarks and LastPass? Are those prohibited too?

  7. BenDTU says:

    Interesting – So Windows 8 will have a browser that supports flash, and one that doesn't?

  8. Roland S. says:

    Does this mean that PDF documents from the Web cannot be displayed inside the Metro IE?

    Most PDF readers currently integrate with IE. It would be a major drawback if this would only work in the desktop version of IE in Windows 8.

  9. Interesting technique for dumping IE's old and rather cumbersome plugin support without actually having to break compatibility for those few occasions where plugins are absolutely still required. I've already found them to be largely unnecessary since moving to IE9, so they won't be missed.

  10. BDawg says:

    Um… Silverlight? So Microsoft is actually trash-talking their own system out in public. I was strongly disagreeing with the "silverlight is dead" group but this post is actually quite a bit like a slap in the face.

  11. joboehl says:

    Please allow metro on resolutions lower than 1024X768.

    There are quite a few netbooks, some even with touch,  that could be used to check performance on tablet-equivalent performance level (atoms with low memory).

    Thanks

  12. JoeH says:

    Cutting out things like LastPass from the Metro browser means I'll never use it, no matter how good it is.

  13. arc says:

    We don't need plugins, but we need add-ons. Please build a add-on center just like firefox and chrome.

  14. sam says:

    Yes, you don't need plugins, but we need native SIlverlight.

    I thought this was going to make sense, this metro. But it in fact stinks.

  15. doodle says:

    You think plugins for video-only? You sad, miserable people.

  16. Chris McGrath says:

    Does that mean no silverlight for metro IE10 as well, or is there an exception for that? I'd clarify this quickly or you'll have a bunch of angry developers

    Also please shamelessly copy Firefox's awesomebar.

  17. Mat says:

    Html is for punks, who know no better!

  18. SDreamer says:

    Wow…. you know one of the defense of Windows is the fact that it's a full OS, not a mobile one. Doing this makes IE10 essentially a mobile browser. Sure these plugins are security risks and do drain battery more, but it's ultimately up to the user to install the plugins. How about Microsoft regulates the plugins with the app store to make sure they aren't security liabilities and what not. Killing off Flash effectively kills off millions of cross platform applications that run through web browsers. I think being able to run Flash the best out of the bunch has been a highlight of why these Mobile browsers are behind. This article just uses video for its argument, but not web design or application/game development.

  19. raymond says:

    how about silverlight and all the other stuff Microsoft made to build stuff? Is that being used in Metro styled apps or not at all?

  20. Steve says:

    FTW?

    Government should step in to *** some sense into these simpletons softies.

  21. Maxim says:

    +1 to jjMustang.

    Without LastPass and XMarks, the browser is useless for myself.

  22. @SDreamer says:

    #fail — the post uses "battery life as well as security, reliability, and privacy " as its argument. It uses video as an example. move on guys, Flash not good for the web

  23. Frenk says:

    Is Silverlight being supported at least? Because if not  this will be another big unneeded FU to your developers…

  24. @Mat

    Firefox copied the "awesomebar" from Chrome, and ie9…

  25. Jim of the North says:

    I pray they get rid of their lame, pointless, proprietary Silverlight too, and just switch their own stuff to HTML5 like they are yapping about all the time.

  26. Windows 8 UI concept — the switch between Metro and Desktop is still not elegant (its still jarring for many people). Also, the taskbar — one of the most powerful features of Windows 7, is lost when going into Metro UI; the functionality, as far as I know, is not replicated from within either.

    What if, taking the idea of app tabs from browsers, the taskbar is merged with Metro UI, and the Metro Start screen and Desktop are their own "app tabs" on the taskbar?

    Reason being: the functionality of the taskbar isn't really emulated on the Metro UI. I kinda want to see what Metro apps I have "opened" on a taskbar. Also, the (wonderful) concept of pinned apps disappear with Metro's start screen.

    The taskbar is pretty powerful (and functional) — and I don't know if Metro has something to replace it or emulate its functionality (like its trying to do with the Start Menu, which I think its getting there, but the taskbar and start menu are two different things…). If it ain't broke, and there really isn't anything better, why reinvent the wheel?

    Also, since that would mean APPs can now be pinned, maybe the concept that the traditional desktop is now an "app" can be less of a jarring transition for some people. The desktop, while it can exist by itself, when existing with Metro, it really should be regarded as its own "app" inside Metro.

    That way, switching from the UIs kinda makes more sense (to me, at least), and all open apps are still visible on the taskbar — which exists on both UIs.

    Problem with this: does it match with Microsoft's goals? It makes sense to me — the taskbar is a place for launching and pinning apps. As it stands, Metro UI doesn't have its functionality (or it does, but with a whole different paradigm — apps exist "pinned" on the program selections, but doesn't exist as pinning like it does on the taskbar — like specific folders or webpages or program sections). The Start Screen and the Desktop can be app tabs always open on the taskbar.

    Also, if the taskbar it included with Metro and the Desktop — both as "app tabs" — it makes sense to group Metro apps (if it makes sense to do so in the first place) and Desktop apps to the left and right of the screen. This displaces the notification area that has always been on the right side. If MS wishes to keep that there, I don't know how to "fix" the idea.

  27. Humayun says:

    Microsoft really needs to offer full extensions / add-ons like chrome and Firefox. I know internet explorer is currently the best in terms of rendering and hardware acceleration but the LACK OF ADD ONS keeps me away from it.

  28. Paul O says:

    Thanks, Steven & Dean. A plug-in free experience in Metro-style browsing is absolutely the right decision.

  29. Chris McGrath says:

    @BumbleBritches57 Um, the awesomebar was released in firefox 3 in June 2008. The initial release of Chrome was September 2008. So the awesomebar was in firefox before chrome even came out.

    And till this day, chrome (and IE) still doesn't have anything near as good as the awesomebar (I would switch to chrome if it did!).

  30. Steve says:

    So you can't use Netflix or Hulu in Metro?  Wow…fail.

  31. manoj says:

    windows should provide pause button during copying files in explorer…

  32. Using a win 8 tablet now says:

    Wtf . No Silverlight. You guys should be ashamed.

  33. Stefan says:

    What about Silverlight? As far as I know you are not supporting WebGL so how am I supposed to get hardware accelerated 3d in the browser?

  34. jamiet says:

    Dean,

    I support the blocking of add-ins like Flash but am perturbed that I won't be able to use my beloved Lastpass addin. I'd appreciate it if you could find a way so that Lastpass could still work – I watched Jensen Harris' BUILD session where he talked about contracts – maybe there could be a "provide credentials" contract or something.

    However you do it, please please please do not block the use of Lastpass.

    thanks

    JT

  35. Anders says:

    will there be a webm codec in the metro style ie or will we be foreced to encode in both h.264 and webm?

  36. 6205 says:

    Uhm… i wonder when fill Flash and Silverlight finally die of horrible death… Please speed up this process. I want pure web experience, without any plugins.

  37. Aidan says:

    If there's no plug-in support then sites like Sky Go and BBC iPlayer won't work in Metro style.

    Since these are two key sites I would use on a tablet, this gives me pause.

    They use the DRM features in Silverlight and Flash, which aren't replicated in HTML5.

  38. Tim Ehlers says:

    Please remove the zones-model from IE. It is much too complicated for most users. And esp. the zone for non-trusted sited doesn't make sense: Every unknown site (Internet-Zone) must be seen as insecure. No other browser has this zones-model and they're secure too.

  39. from preview says:

    Installed Silverlight and Flash plugins and on standalone browser they work as before, but on metro browser they won't! Why???

    The apps that supposedly use "awesomeness" HTML… suck. And it was evident in a keynote demo. Flash or Silverlight devs would create better apps in a week that took them what, eight weeks????

  40. I think this is a mistake, people love customizing their browser with all kinds of add-ons.

  41. videophile says:

    No plugin is all well and good but how the hell are we supposed to show DRM'd video content in a Metro style IE experience (and other browsers) without relying on Silverlight or Flash?

  42. MOD says:

    Seems not everything told about ActiveX plugins here is true.

    I've just tried to create a Windows Web Apllication with and ActiveX control inside it, and

    have the following message in JavaScript console:

    WWA9603: Cannot load the plug-in that has the class ID '{D694F78F-A696-4A03-9841-24BB33AF9F48}'.  Windows Web Applications supports a limited set of ActiveX controls.

    So some "limited set" of ActiveX plugins are still allowed to run.

    So may be somebody knows there in the registry this list of allowed plugin lives ? :-).

  43. apollo says:

    I understand your reasoning to disable the plugins. But shouldn't such decisions be made by the user instad of the OS vendor?

    You could disbale them by default, but please give users an option to re-enable them. (It's okay if it's burried in the settings, those who need to find it, will find it)

    Please give users more choice when it comes to such options. It's stille an PC operation system right?

    On related note: It would also be great to allow side-loading of metro-apps for regular users and please give and option to select apps that should be allow to run in the background without being paused.

  44. Semih Masat says:

    Hello,

    i don't know is this the place for that but i dont want to use metro style ie on developer preview.

    everytime i have to switch to old desktop to open ie10.

    is there any solution for that?

  45. suchal says:

    you should not give windows 8 free of cost to all people. u should only give to developers

  46. Ray S. says:

    Steven, I was very disappointed when I opened up IE10 only to find out it was a Flash-less browser.

    I suggest, that because many desktops and laptops are going to be using Windows 8, and to make it even easier to use so you don't have people having to switch browsers just to play a game, that you make the x86 versions of the IE10 software support Flash.

    I really don't want to see Windows 8 go into the trash already, before it's even launched. Because ARM is going to be on tablets, just make the x86 version with plugins and the ARM version without.

  47. oos says:

    Will IE10 enable webgl by any chance? Pretty please, with sugar on top! (^.^)

  48. GregH says:

    I just think it is a mess – the tinky toy little Metro stuff makes me feel like we are going backward to the 80's – it feels a bit basic – aren't we suppoed to be using elegant and serious desktop computers – who the hell is going to keep thier arm out to a screen for 10 hours a day like me – don't – I repeat – don't tell us that this thing is mouse and keyboard friendly – I fumbled around it yesterday – really dissapointed Steven.

    Who designed those terrible scroll bars – they are worse than those in Win 95.

  49. David says:

    I could not disagree with you more about a Silverlight experience being a bad thing that will not be supported in Metro.  Guess what you just lost any interest that I had in HTML 5/Metro – good luck with that.

    There are many, many very experienced developers telling you that you are making a very serious technical and marketing mistake, but you refuse to listen.

    It will be interesting to see if you allow this to post with your obvious bias.

    I spend 4 hard years developing Silverlight skills and then you tell me it's a bad thing and that I should trust Microsoft and spend another several years learning an inferior technology called Metro HTML 5 that will only run on a tablet in Win 8 – you have got to be kidding!

    Good luck with Metro – you are going to be missing a lot of senior developers,

    David

  50. Alireza Noori says:

    OK. I asked this but didn't get the answer. So please answer me. I couldn't find the option for InPrivate browsing and the tools button (for instance printing, saving to file, Internet options, etc). Where are those?! Are these available?! One more thing. Since IE10 desktop version will be also important for many of us, where can we suggest features for that? Should we go to Connect website? I have tons of suggestions if you are accepting. Thanks.

  51. All I can say is good luck with all that no-plugins thing in Metro browser. Eventually you will realize that you still need it because HTML5 can't do tons of stuff and is awful in general as a desktop/mobile application/game solution.

    And I'm so sorry for the Silverlight developers you screwed. Thank god i didn't waste time with that and invested any effort.

    AIR is the future of development of rich interactive apps and games across all platforms and by not allowing Flash/AIR is something that only hurts you.

    I guess it's Android for any serious stuff.

  52. John says:

    Ok, so you want to kill Silverlight and Flash. Thats cool.

    What I don't see at //Build/ is any mention of DESIGN tooling to support these awesome HTML5 web apps.

    I see that Blend supports HTML5+JS native Metro apps. Does it also support non-metro vanilla HTML5 web applications?

    We are just finishing a Silverlight LOB application that is apparently already obselete. We have plans to push it out the door and immediately re-write it in HTML5 because of your sudden "change in strategy". Thanks for screwing us over by the way.

    One of the things that makes us really productive for Silverlight is Blend. We can rapidly design innovative UI in Blend. We won't be able to get that level of innovation or productivity under HTML5 unless Blend supports non-metro run of the mill HTML5 web apps.

  53. Windows 8 Enthusiast says:

    @Steven   NO Flash??? You gotta be kidding me man !! Atleast allow it in desktop version or pc will also become dumb like ipad..

  54. Nivin says:

    @manoj, there is a pause button for copy operations in Windows 8 Explorer

  55. They are just kicking themselves. They failed with Silverlight and now they are hoping to bet on HTML5 because they couldn't compete with Flash.  

    As I said, they are only screwing themselves. Without Flash it's useless and nothing more but glorified widget factory.

  56. We wanted to port Flash apps to support Metro UI and run inside the tiles but have no intention of wasting resources doing it in HTML5.

  57. Bonjours, merci de transmettre mon message a l'équipe de développeur de Microsoft :

    Microsoft commet une terrible erreur avec l'interface tactile Métro de Windows 8, la majorité des utilisateurs sur les forums ne sont pas du tout satisfait de cette interface qui n'est utile que pour les accessoire tactile mais c'est très inconfortable sur un pc. La version "Developer Preview" a montré que sur un accessoir tactile tel une tablette il pouvait être intéressant mais PAS sur un pc.

    Vous vous êtes mal orienté, n'oubliez pas que la majorité des utilisateurs de Windows l'utiliseront  sur pc et donc sans écran tactile, les tablettes ne sont que "une mode qui s’arrêtera un jour", c'est un accessoire "familiale" mais la majorité des utilisateurs resteront toujours sur pc portable ou pc de bureau.

    Ce qu'il faudrait faire c'est rester sur un bureau traditionnel avec une barre de tâche MAIS en changeant cette barre de tâche par exemple en lui donnant un effet 3D ou un effet de perspective un peu comme la barre d'outil de Mac OS X mais pour la barre de menu ( un exemple parmi tant d'autre : http://vimeo.com/4255076 ).

    L'interface tactile que vous avez fait avec des pavés peut être intégré pour les tablettes mais il ne faut pas y intégrer aux versions PC, il faut rester purement sur du bureau, ce n'est pas une histoire d'habitude ou pas : c'est beaucoup plus pratique avec un clavier et une souris d'utiliser un bureau que métro.

    J'espère donc que Microsoft proposera un vrai bureau avec des changements dans le design pour la version pc et non pas un bureau identique a Windows 7 comme c'est le cas avec la version Developer Preview.

    Si vous continuez sur la route que vous êtes en train de prendre d'après cette build de test destiné aux développeurs, Windows 8 risque d'être très critiqué et d'être considéré comme le nouveau Windows Millénium (célèbre pour être le plus mauvais Windows)

    Pour résumer : s'il vous plais, pas de version tactile de Windows 8 pour les utilisateurs PC/PC Portable (mais vous pouvez la garder pour les écrans tactile, par exemple en sortant une version pour ça : "Windows 8 édition tactile" et changé la barre de tâche de Windows 7 par une plus jolie avec un plus beau design (un effet 3d en perspective par exemple)

    Merci de faire transmettre ce message a l'équipe de développeurs de Microsoft qui s'occupe du projet Windows 8.

  58. Drewfus says:

    "For the web to move forward and for consumers to get the most out of touch-first browsing, the Metro style browser in Windows 8 is as HTML5-only as possible, and plug-in free. The experience that plug-ins provide today is not a good match with Metro style browsing and the modern HTML5 web."

    This is a big, bold decision. Congratulations. However, having a plugin-free Metro 'experience' but not a plugin-free desktop experience looks like your hedging your bets – that your not really sure about what your doing and want to avoid making hard choices. The result is that Windows 8 is already starting to get a reputation as a two-faced, schizophrenic freak with dual personality.

    The problem is that big claims are being made, like; "plug-ins [are] not a good match with Metro style browsing and the modern HTML5 web" – without explaining, elaborating on or providing evidence that this is the case. Why should we believe you?

    I've also noticed that comments from MSFT people seem to be declining with every post. What is the point of the this blog, other than publicity, if not to engage with and discuss issues, problems, decisions, philosophies and requests with members of the public who have taken time to look at what your planning or proposing? Please lift the communication level and start doing more to justify the new design and functionality.

  59. GregH says:

    Looks like they are thinking this:

    labs.adobe.com/…/edge

  60. I do not share Mr. Hachamovitch's views regarding plugins. My Android smartphone regrettably lacks Flash because the CPU is not supported, and I am constantly running into barriers because of this. And no, not regarding video playback or games.

    Google is promoting its plugin for running native code right now. It is probably a bad idea, but it shows how plugins are able to extend basic browser functionality with new technologies even today. By disallowing any and all plugins inside the touch UI, you are making Metro IE10 already obsolete by the time it comes out. This is a very bad decision.

    (And thank goodness I never got into Silverlight. I feel really sorry for your developers right now… :-/ )

  61. Apple says:

    Nice to see Sliverlight going away,,,I guess we won.

  62. ali says:

    Unfortunately i think Metro with mouse & keyboard is useless and inefficient.

    In a desktop computer with mouse & keyboard, Why i would use metro apps (IE10,mail etc) instead of desktop apps?

    @ Steven Sinofsky

    1. Do Metro apps in Desktop computers increase our productivity?

    2. In which situations, you think we ( desktop users ) should use metro apps instead of desktop apps?

    3. Do metro apps have any advantages over desktop apps for people who use mouse & keyboard?

    If Metro can not improve our experience , then why Microsoft wants to bring metro into desktop computers?

  63. I'm incredibly happy with this decision.  Adobe Flash is old technology created to fix a problem that doesn't exist anymore! Move on people! As for lastpass, why not switch to password safe? It does everything lastpass does (especially when you place the encrypted password file into your dropbox (or equivalent) account). Silverlight has been dead, I don't know why some developers are clinging to it, everyone knows it is ONLY used for Netflix, and even Netflix is switching over to HTML5. This move to push everyone into getting rid of Adobe Flash and moving everything to HTML5 will ensure a cross-platform web experience that is currently non-existent (ever try watching Flash videos on your IOS-device, PSP, or wii?). OSX, IOS, Linux, Windows, BSD, Minix, HURD, WebOS, all support HTML5 Natively, this makes your content available to everyone no matter what device they choose.  This is bringing MORE choice to the end user, because now your not stuck with having to crank up your expensive desktop or laptop anytime you run into content your mobile device can't play because it doesn't have the latest Adobe plugin.

  64. @pip25

    This means that since your android supports HTML5 (which is not a google plugin…) Your old phone will be able to play back HTML5 video even though Adobe doesn't support your CPU! You should be jumping up and down over this! Your looking at this in the completely wrong mindset and it is kind of funny!

  65. DannyT says:

    So confused by all this, can someone confirm if this analogy is close:

    Win8 Metro + Win8 desktop == OSX + iOS

    So basically bundling portable/touch based OS together with Desktop?

  66. john says:

    Lol at the people clinging to flash and silverlight. The future is open standards.

  67. @designbyinfinity

    I think you'll find this interesting:  

    http://www.html5games.net/

    A developer who refuses to evolve and learn new tools is not a true developer.

  68. @Supernatendo

    Your reply is even funnier. You say "your old phone will be able to play back HTML5 video" but the key word is "will". I would perhaps even switch "will" to "might". Right now, it doesn't in many cases.

    The truth is that at this time of writing, the web is nowhere near ready for the plugin-less browsing. I can't surf the web on such a browser the way I'd like, and that does not make me want to "jump up and down" at all. If Metro IE10 will have the same limitations, I will be inclined to stay far away from it.

  69. html5hater says:

    Time to work on server-side development. I'm sick to death of this Html-5 "awesomeness" crap. It's HTML people! Same as it always was. I have lost all respect for Microsoft for their decision to throw Silverlight under the bus. HTML + Javascript, whatever version, is manifestly inferior. I will not regress. Screw this.

  70. Tyler says:

    Windows 8 looks great, so does metro, but this is just wrong. You are killing businesses.

    HTML5 is not capable of meeting all needs. For example online gaming. How can somebody recreate a Unity3D app in using HTML technologies? Its just not possible. The same goes for Flash, Silverlight, etc… There is no alternative to many things these technologies are still used for today. And HTML is no where near being able to.

    Dropping down to the regular desktop experience is not an acceptable solution, how many users will want to do that? How many will know to do that.

    You are splitting the market AGAIN, and the users are going to suffer for it.

  71. @John

    We are not clinging to these technologies, I'm the same that the sooner they leave the better, however we are not at that point in time yet so to simply remove all support for it seems like suicide. Can you imagine how many people take a new Windows 8 laptop/tablet home and then wonder why YouTube doesn't work, why they can't play any Facebook games? It's just a stupid decision, support the tech and let it die out naturally, don't pull the plug on something that still has tens of millions of users. (Heh kinda like what they did with us SL devs).

  72. With no plug-ins, in what format should one deliver a vector animation to viewers?

    Some cartoons are made in Flash, such as Homestar Runner. These are sent in SWF format because sending the vectors in SWF format is roughly one-tenth the size of rendering the vectors to MPEG-4 AVC video. The difference between SWF and AVC is like the difference between SVG and JPEG. People have tried using SVG animated with JavaScript to replace SWF animation, but it's inconsistent among browsers and has a far slower frame rate than just using SWF.

  73. jamiet says:

    Supernatendo,

    Appareciate your response regarding Lastpass, and I admit I've never used (or heard of) password safe but the real benefit of Lastpass (to me) is that it can autofill forms for you and it can only do that *because* its a plug-in. That is why I'm hoping there is a workaround.

    Regards

    JT

  74. Alejandro says:

    No plugins? Lots of people use browser plugins. I use Chrome and among my plugins is a dictionary where if I double click a word, it brings up a tool-tip with the definition. This is an awesome plugin. It's stuff like this why I prefer to use Chrome over IE.

  75. @DannyT

    The main vision and plan is to have as close to the same platform running across all devices. End users will have some control over customization, and the windows Shell everyone has come to love in Windows 7 will still be there for the desktop users, but your not limited to being forced to run a different OS on your phone, tablet, netbook, laptop, desktop, TV etc… This way everything can be made to be compatible with each other, including apps, and the experience of switching from one device to another is very natural and fluid to the end user.  As for if that will happen in Windows 8 or if it will take Windows 9 or 10 to get there…

    OSX and IOS is apple's way of doing this, and Linux kernel runs on just about everything, although Linux has huge fragmentation beyond the kernel, especially in regards to UI.

  76. @Jami Thompson

    Password safe is able to auto-fill in any running window, including (but not limited to!) your web browser.

    passwordsafe.sourceforge.net

    Check it out, if you like it, try it out, best of luck!

  77. Huge slap in the face to sliverlight devs. Makes no sense either because they made silverlight the main programming language for their phones.

  78. Newgrounds says:

    So guys are trying to kill the billion dollar casual games market?

    Big mistake.

  79. HTML5 says:

    GOOD RIDDANCE FLASH AND SILVERLIGHT

    HTML5 FTW

    I FOR ONE WELCOME OUR NEW HTML5 OVERLORDS

  80. ASDF says:

    Good news for Windows Vista it won't be regarded as the worst Windows version ever after the release of Windows 8.

  81. @BDawg @Mattn9  @sam @Chris McGrath @[insert angry developer here]

    I understand your anger, you have spent countless amounts of time and resources learning and working with silverlight thinking that it would be here to stay.

    I do see your points, however, as soon as you found out silverlight was not truly going to be cross-platform (Moonlight does not support everything silverlight does etc…) you should have seen this coming. .NET and silverlight are not cross-platform and it hurts them greatly.  We are not in a Windows only world, nor should we be, because then no body would have a /home and that would suck!!!

    A good developer brushes off the dust, buys a few books and learns a new programming language, it is simply the nature of the trade, and your professors and/or mentors should have warned you that this does and will happen. This is how innovation thrives. Buy a few beers in silverlight's memory, and move on to the next big thing.

  82. pramod says:

    just installed the windows 8 developer preview on my laptop, and I cannot stop using it… this is really super cool and awsome…. Windows 8 will be a hit…. Apple please get ready for some competition.

  83. Ben Farrell says:

    Will you guys be introducing some sort of streaming audio/video standard for the video tag like Apple?  I'm just wondering how you plan to support long form/live video if you're ditching plugins

  84. raymond says:

    You guys need silverlight and flash support. It's so stupid since most things build with flash can be interactive besides the video stuff. now we can no longer see those things.

  85. witalis says:

    All I want from any Windows operating system is the ability to restore the interface and look to the old style. For example widows Vista and 7 don't let you go back to the old look completely. There is always something that is different and unique. A lot of people that are comfortable around computer complain about the new design of the operating system, there really needs to be a way of changing that.

  86. PLEASE! PLEASE! Give users options to choose whether or not to enable plugin in either IE in desktop or Metro. Let's say that I love to live forever in Metro UI and when I come to use web especially playing flash/ silverlight game on websites and I can't use it on Metro IE and I have to switch back to desktop IE to use that. That experience is kind of weird and bothering. One thing the teams are clearer than anyone else is Windows 8 is not mobile OS but PC (mainstream) so that would be a shame if these popular support is destroyed because even some mobile platforms (OS) out there still support flash. No excuse for Microsoft to kill it.

    So far experience in Windows 8 is great but don't let this one destroyed that.

  87. Supernatendo, you have no clue what you are talking about. HTML5 games run like CRAP on mobile devices.

    Here.. just a little bit of a wake up call:

    http://www.ditii.com/…/flash-is-faster-better-stronger-than-html-5-on-mobile-phones-benchmark-test-revealed

    http://www.craftymind.com/guimark3

    Flash is years ahead of HTML5/JS and anything else.

    Nobody is disputing that HTML5 is the evolution. It's a natural extension of HTML standard, not some magical and almighty technology. Most of us real developers also know how to make HTML5 apps but if you actually built stuff you would understand that anything creative, animated, DRMed video, 3D stuff is a DISASTER to build in HTML5. It runs ok (not great) but ok on desktop machines and that's considering they have GPU accelerated canvas but it's still just incredibly inefficient. Flash has unbelievable capabilities now with Stage3D, Stage Video and other amazing things that just blow the socks out of everything out there and runs completely off GPU. WebGL is kind of alternative but again, if you tried working with it, making something complex will make you grow a 3rd testicle plus there are huge security issues and tons of stuff with it, so much that Microsoft themselves disabled support for WebGL in IE.

    Games being built with HTML5 are a joke. They are stuff we did like 10 years ago. And I"m not going into development tools and design tools to build this stuff.

    Not to mention that Microsoft and IE don't even support same things that webkit browsers support etc etc. It becomes a nightmare.

    Will HTML5 get better? Sure, in maybe 5 years Adobe will finalize the tools that will come close to what Flash was doing 10-15 years ago and I'm not even going into issues of typography and other design aspects which are a nightmare now. Use Typekit or Google fonts and see how awesomely awful they look on different platforms and devices.

    HTML5 by itself is not competitive to Flash. They are complementary technologies. You can use both and people who want to make amazing stuff do use both. Flash is much better for immersive and interactive experiences, fantastic alpha channel capabilities with videos, adaptive bit-rates, caption support, and so much more not to mention, while HTML5 finally brings us things we all needed like local offline storage and other stuff. Combining the two you can make incredibly powerful applications.

    It's great that HTML5 now has a video tag so you can play a simple video without any plugins but even with that, the codec mess is still unresolved.  

    And with all this, I'm not even going into AIR which allows you to build native apps for all kinds of devices and platforms.

    This is why it's completely asinine to take out support for Flash even Silverlight in Metro IE.

    I am all for standards, but when we have something that's so inferior to what we have with plugins, we don't want to go back with technology, we need to go forward.

    I am sick and tired of Microsoft and Apple trying to constantly limit choices. If you think people love HTML5 so much and Flash needs to die why don't you give both choices to developers and consumers. Why this fear and deliberate sabotage of better technologies? If it's so great just let people decide, it's not like Microsoft makes Flash. Allow support and if HTML5 is indeed superior or at least same as Flash, let people decide.

    I'll tell you why, because people would overwhelmingly continue using Flash and Silverlight instead of HTML5. HTML5 and JS are just nightmare to deal with. It's like coding crap in basic again not to mention Javascript being a mess of a scripting language with hacks and frameworks you have to use just to get something resembling objective oriented programming.

  88. The teams want to show users that there is no disadvantage of using Metro IE or desktop IE because they show the same content with just different experience, right? However, the thing I want to point out Flash/plugin is not experience (to be different) but the CONTENT (to be the same). If you say it's the same content so I log on to sony.com (heavy flash site)  using Metro IE and then I don't see anything. It's funny for the claim!!!!

    Give us options otherwise we won't be using Metro IE.

  89. I meant object orient programming, true classes, inheritance etc etc.

  90. Hubert says:

    "Adobe Flash is old technology created to fix a problem that doesn't exist anymore"

    Dear sir,

    Thank you for sharing your widsom and thank you for reading this comment. As you clearly know what you are talking about I would like, on behalf of the web developers everywhere, to probe your infinite widsom with three questions.

    1) Can you recommend any HTML IDE equivalent to the Flash IDE? Please don't mention Adobe Edge as it's the equivalent to the Flash 1.0 IDE.

    2) Can you recommend any HTML gaming engines that work cross-browser and on all devices? Please don't mention proof-of-concept or vaporware. A URL to a solid engine that handles sound effects would be suffice.

    3) The HTML 5 spec does not contain any support for Web Cams or Microphones. Perharps HTML 6 will, who knows (probably you) so what is your suggestion if I would like to create an experience on a touch device that makes use of the web cam? Create three seperate applications for iPad, Honeycomb and Windows Chrome?

    Looking forward to your answers,

    Hubert

  91. Anon says:

    I think it should be up to users to decide whether or not to display flash/sl on metro brower. Let them take the pain of eating up memory. How about this.. bring up a top toolbar like message that asks whether or not to display the flash/sl content and its ramifications. This way, the user has been warned and it doesn't play by default. Everyone wins.

  92. sharky says:

    Well, thank you Firefox. We'd still be using IE6 today if someone did not challenge the arrogance of M$.

    BTW, Very few are interested in a Windows tablet. Why would we want to be holding a virus ridden OS in our hands?

  93. Rich says:

    Unfortunately this is bad for users. You see, they do not want you building web applications, they want you to build Metro applications. Don't go to netflix.com to watch videos, open tan application. Of course web applications are better, OS independent, not tied to individual devices.

    Microsoft is trying to kill what the web is.

  94. DanglingPointer says:

    +1 for native SL support.

    Moreover, provide the support for ability to download swf/flv stream and something like "measure-it" (plugin for FF) in F12 Dev tools and few others requested here: connect.microsoft.com/…/extensibility-in-f12-developer-tools

    Last but not the least, if you guys would make me so much happy if you provide the ability to create download in IE's download manager! more on: connect.microsoft.com/…/create-download-in-ie-download-manager

    Thank you Microsoft for introducing next-generation technologies and redefining the whole concept of Operating System !!

  95. @dizzydj says:

    You all realize that the Metro Start Menu, although usable with a mouse and keyboard, probably won't meet the needs of desktop users, right? That means that the Windows 8 Classic has all the same features of Windows 7. Therefore, this is a non issue. Am I going to be using WIndows 8 Metro on my Desktop — YES! But not for Web Browsing or anything like that. I am going to use it for a "screen saver" like mode that, when I get to my computer, can see if I have mail, some news, maybe Twitter… but when I go to actually USE my desktop, I am going to be right in Classic Mode, being epic just as I was before this Metro-thing happened.

    For Tablets running on ARM and x86 (32 or 64-bit), disallowing plug-ins make perfect sense. Running one of these in the Metro UI means that you aren't going to be wanting to do high end things on a tablet. Yes, you may want to use Office Apps, answer email or do other light productivity work, but you aren't going to be using these as production machines… that just doesn't make sense. At all. Unless your docking it and hooking it up to a larger monitor. Which in that case your into Classic mode, using IE10 in its normal mode.

    In my work flow, all of your complaints are starting to sound childish. This is the future — Microsoft isn't taking steps backward at all. They have combined the best of a Mobile, agile operating system with the greatness that is Windows 7. This is perfect, and I can't wait to start using a flashless, plug-in less world.

    (I dont use plug-ins anyway… other then flash thats about it.)

  96. Paul from Italy says:

    I can't express how happy I am to see the new Metro UI and developing tools you've created

    Thank you so much! 😀

  97. Jon says:

    This is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea. Let users decide how much battery they want to pull from their device. Dropping flash makes metro nothing more than a dumbed down iphone interface. Part of the current advantage of android over iphone is that those things can actually handle flash! Imagine a tablet user browsing around to a flash only site (hey, those still exist), wanting to use it, and then, *sigh*, you need to break out of metro and revisit the site on the desktop? What a horrible experience. Make your browser work the same way everywhere– that's what your users expect.

    At least let power users toggle this on via registry somewhere…

    Please rethink the direction here!!

  98. Sara says:

    I'm so sick of companies like Apple AND now Microsoft trying to FORCE users into a particular way of doing things. I LIKE Flash! I don't care if you think I should not or want me to use something else – I LIKE FLASH. I have Apple devices, but I also have way more non-Apple devices because I WANT the control and freedom that non-Apple devices afford me. I wish that Microsoft would do better than to try to copy Apple's model by trying to eliminate Flash. Making a legacy version of IE10 that will use Flash isn't enough. Instead of trying to follow the crowd, why not lead for a change? Stop trying to be Apple and just be good or great at doing what you do. If you did that instead of trying to follow in the footsteps of others, things would be so much better for Microsoft AND the developers. I just want a great experience WITH all of the tools that I want – FLASH INCLUDED! Maybe I'll quit my whining and just go develop something myself. Necessity is, after all, the mother of invention…….

  99. @Hubert

    Love the facetious passive-aggressive speech!

    Your examples are describing very niche markets.  The majority of users want to listen to music, watch videos, and get on facebook. I may not have bothered to explain that the death of FLASH and SL is tied more to the most widespread use of Flash and SL today, which of course is playing Video. I am not saying that FLASH is less capable than HTML5 (especially in regards to webcams), just pointing out that from the standpoint of cross-platform compatibility and security, FLASH and SL are no longer necessary for a majority of end users. Which leads me to my next point:

    non-metro and plugin-compatible IE10 will still exist without forcing users to constantly use the Metro IE10.  For your niche markets you describe, those users can still install plugins in IE10.

    VIM is an excellent HTML IDE. The point you make has absolutely nothing to do with Flash on the one hand or HTML5/CSS3/JS on the other. If an authoring tool can be made for one language (Flash) why couldn't one be made for another (HTML)?

    Javascript is a viable programming language, and with canvas 3D you can pretty much make anything.  I'm not saying that right now, all plugins should go away.  But in the next 5-10 years you should think about broadening your scope into other things besides Flash and SL.

    Just because something is going to go by the wayside, such as FLASH and SL, doesn't necessarily mean that it was not able of doing more.  There are more factors involved which make a platform successful or unsuccessful than that.  In Flash and SL's cases, and with the advent of smart-phones, tablets, netbooks, Android, and IOS, security and cross-platform compatibility are quickly putting HTML5 in the position to replace a majority of user's needs in a much better way than FLASH or SL can provide by being proprietary and incompatible with certain devices and OSes.  If FLASH and SL wanted to remain relevant then they needed to work harder at being supported by a larger variety of devices and operating systems than they did.

    I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior, please try a little more WYSIWYG in the future! Bless your heart!

  100. Jack-in says:

    C# apps lost access to resource elements, only content files are accessible from code, no more clean MVVM.

    Jabba-the-script and Html on the other hand became impregnated with crazy MS-data attributes.

    I am guessing it's a double square win-win for … Apple. Congrats.

    May I suggest – rename Html5 into bling-bling. You've created real "tools", all over audience.

  101. Schroekatz says:

    Well, Ill wait for a Chrome or Firefox port onto Metro. Im sure Ittle be there quickly.

  102. @Supernatendo says:

    LOL and LOL. I just finished watching Channel 9 vid in <video>… User experience SUCKS HARD.

    So stop shitting all over the place with your nonsense.

  103. NavyMan says:

    @Hubert, you are a freaking troll! just saying..

  104. Manoel says:

    Great. I work developing 3D games delivered via a browser plugin.

    Can you guys at least have the decency of offer a way to detect the Metro IE so we can display a proper message to our users directing them to switch to classic deskop, instead of a puzzling "Plugin not installed"?

  105. HB says:

    User should be able to decide whether they want to use plugins in the Metro IE…

  106. Commentator says:

    Hi, I saw some screenshots of the task manager in Windows 8…..Can it have a window where are indicated the temperatures of the various hardware?Also I'd like to see an option, for safety of my pc, that shuts down Windows when the temperature of alarm (that we can change) is reached……please please I really need of this :(

  107. Jay says:

    Supernatendo,

    are you paid to defend HTML5 ? Do you even KNOW what HTML5 is really capable of? Yes, far less than what Adobe Flash can currently do. HTML5+JS is the equivalent of what Flash was in 2006. Except that it's not ubiquitous, and has worse tooling. And guess what – the standard is not going to evolve until HTML6.

    Second point: you think Microsoft is supporting HTML5 ? Investigate a little further – you'll discover that for Microsoft there is "HTML5" and then there is "Metro HTML5". So, no, you can't build an HTML5+JS app for Metro that will run in other places.

    My company builds browser-based applications that behave like desktop applications. Imagine Microsoft Powerpoint, but running in your web-browser. Thanks to the FUD around plugins, we've spent around 1 year investigating alternatives to Adobe Flex. Guess what: from the engineering point of view it's completely disappointing – you have to invest two to three more time and money in R&D to achieve something "acceptable". But the worse, is the point of view of the user:  the user experience that you can deliver with a HTML5+JS solution is NOWHERE CLOSE of what you can do with Flex.

    HTML and JS are only an alternative if you're a behemoth like Google, and if you're willing to decrease the user experience. But even Google is tired of HTML and JS: arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2011/09/critics-call-foul-as-google-takes-aim-at-javascript-with-dart.ars

    Au contraire of what happened with Apple – which a niche -, this move of Microsoft will piss off millions of people and will backfire. The Windows user is completely different the an Apple user. And you'll discover that it's not about open or closed technologies – it's about of freedom of choice for the end user. And you'll see the end user complaining pretty soon and understand how bad this move is going to be for Microsoft.

    So, stop pretending that this is a good move. There are interests in the middle of these decisions – or do you think they are REALLY supporting open standards?..

    Bottom line: the end user will suffer.

  108. Parv says:

    How to install Domain Controller role on WIN 8 Server?

    DCPROMO won’t work.  It says role is relocated in server manager.

    I have already installed AD DS role.

    But how to make it DC.

  109. There are a large number of developers decrying the apparent abandonment of Silverlight in IE10.

    While that may be bad for SL devs, I am pretty sure that for every 1 of you, there are 100 (at least) consumers who were just as unhappy at the attempt to make *yet another* flash-killing proprietary "standard". And most of them (me included) either never installed it, or installed it and promptly got rid of it, because it did absolutely nothing for them that wasn't already covered by existing technologies.

    Why support HTML5 instead of Flash/SL? Because consumers don't care about programmer's problems. If they can watch video on every website in the world without a plugin, do you think they care how much work the coder or web admin team have to do? No they don't.

    Example: I'm using Win 7, IE9 and have WMP installed as default. The videos on this website won't load. It's a Microsoft website. That's farcical.Do I need a plugin? Silverlight? A different .NET library? The answer is: I couldn't care less. If Microsoft can't show me an embedded video on a webpage, when I'm using a suite of up to date Microsoft products in their default state, I don't see why I should have to run around trying to find out what they want me to do. That's the way consumers think.

  110. @Supernatendo

    stop blabbing.. there is no canvas 3D specification.. official HTML5 specification is for canvas 2D.

    Nothing you said makes any sense. it's the same nonsense rhetoric that comes from deluded Apple fanboys. Flash is anything but "niche" .. there is TONS of other usages for Flash beyond just video. For you to try to lower the impact of Flash just to video just shows how clueless you are.

    And no, Flash is not going away anytime soon.. It is now de-facto standard for games, commercial videos (unlike what you think, people, your mainstream wants to watch stuff for free and in order to do that you have to either DRM the content or have advertising), interactive experiences etc where none of those are anywhere close to being matched by HTML5. There is a reason why not a single major site abandoned Flash for HTML5. They made some kind of scaled down, missing tons of features (not all content) HTML5 version so iOS users can watch something and they serve that to those like you who are actually a minority.

    Branding and interactive experiences for movies, games, cars etc.. are all done in Flash because the best you can do with HTML5/CSS3 is the already super lame parallax scrolling which everyone and my grandmother does because that's the most engaging thing you can do with HTML5. ANything else you try drags like a dog. Google integrated Flash directly into Chrome. Unity is exporting to Flash thanks to Stage3D, AIR allows us to write native apps with native extensions that run at 10-20 times faster than anything you can make in HTML5 not to mention it works on TVs which many don't have support for HTML5. Write once, publish to all platforms. That's all AS3 and basically Flash IDE or Flash Builder.

    Android supports Flash fully which is really the major mobile eco-system and will be driving force for both tablets and smartphones. RIM also supports Flash, desktops and tablets in general support Flash.. so it's actually that MOST devices do support Flash while they don't support HTML5 or if they do support HTML5, many things don't work the same on all platforms because of different rendering engines, CSS3 support etc.

    Also.. there is something called Open Screen Project where almost ALL major tech companies support Flash and Adobe on various screens (from smartphones, tablets, desktops to TVs).

    HTML5 is not replacing anything. It's simply an improved HTML step just like it was from HTML3 to HTML4 and while it might replace some basic things we had to use Flash for, it's the minimum.

    Your lack of understanding of technology, Flash and the simplistic view that only stanched Apple idiot supporters can believe is hilarious.

    And Hubert is completely right. There are so many things HTML5 can't do and Flash does that IT IS a big deal. Btw, when he said IDE he is talking for designers and developers to create beautiful and creative apps, sites, games. There is none. For you to go and pull out of your ass an editor or a coder IDE just shows that you don't get it.

    You better stop posting so you don't embarrass yourself more.

  111. Michelle says:

    This is a great decision. Web is beautiful without plugins. Pure HTML5+CSS3+JS+SVG..yada yada defines the web standards. Neither does the Flash, nor Silverlight. There is no doubt that flash served a vital role in terms of bringing innovation to rich internet applications. Lately, Silverlight joined it and contributed a lot in the said domain. But the Internet society constantly demands something from the standard bodies.. that turned out to be HTML5 – rich, interactive experience with HTML. By the time IE8 is gonna released with dual-mode IE10, more HTML5 would have meet the W3C Recommendation. IE-team would hopefully incorporate all those approved standards. We should be happy if MS is complying with the standards so actively.

    FWIW, IE10pp3 is scores 300+ in html5test ! Also, on ECMA’s standard test suite, IE10pp3 is the top scorer and IE9 is at the second position (if you are a web developer or a tech-savvy like me, it means complying vividly with all the JavaScript standards for web). If this makes you unhappy, then you are nothing but a hatter.

    @Manoel, there are hundreds of thousands of changes and new features gonna introduced in Windows 8 and IE 10. I hope your voice would be heard and there would be some detection identifier (or preferably the built-in automatic transition to the desktop browser, if the plugin-requiring website is opened). This is a developer's preview. You can drop your suggestion / feedback on connect.microsoft.com/ie.

  112. Web Developer says:

    I guess I'll be making a lot of, "Your expensive piece of crap doesn't run the web" no-flash fall-back graphics (leaving out the Steve Jobs photo this time).

  113. Dude says:

    @Hairs_

    Please, go and try watch plugin-free video. I did and I care less about it now, knowing there are much much better, light years away better alternatives with plugins. Flash is 3 megs to install, SL 5 megs, FF – 12 megs, Windows – 4 GBytes, who are you kidding!

    Consumer satisfaction wins, developer soulful implementation wins, not corporate bullshit.

  114. Web Developer says:

    Flash provides a progressive enhancement to html5, because lets face it, because html5 isn't good enough for everything Flash can do, some functionality can't be replaced (In large part because of the damage to standards done by IE in the past). This decision makes no sense and doesn't improve the web. For the things that html5 can now handle as well as Flash, html5 should be preferred but this would be implemented by site developers. Blocking all Flash everywhere is ridiculous. Thanks for forking up the web again.

  115. What's so annoying is that it always comes to this argument because a company, no users, A COMPANY wants to push standard and their interests forward.

    Here's what you should do. Allow people to write HTML5 apps and allow plugins. If people and developers want to use HTML5 only that's TOTALLY up to them. By doing it forcefully because MS thinks HTML5 is the best strategy for them is the same type of philosophy that came with IE6.

    You are doing that again with Metro, lack of plugins and your own special HTML5 support.

    Let me ask you, do you support Webkit CSS transforms? No? End of story. So much for ubiquity.

    So the future is, coder writing 3 versions of code to accomodate all browsers? Completely insane.

  116. Fearlessgoat says:

    Installed win 8 today and will keep it on for a few more days. My initial views are, for mouse and keyboard users its a big step backwards. The metro side looks nice but isn't practical unless your on a tablet.

    10 Sec load time? not a chance, close to 1 min to boot on my system. Thats after a clean install as well!

    Still going to give it a chance but to be perfectly honest, this may go down as the worst version of windows I have used. Cant see any reason why anyone should upgrade to this. This may be a preview but I suspect a lot wont change before final release.

    Looks like win 7 is the standard to be beaten.

  117. NavyMan says:

    @Michelle, you have a point there, BUT there is something more to it. Indeed HTML5 standards are respectable, great and powerful to achieve rich experience in future but at this point in time, the recommended specifications "are on their way to completion". So there is no point in dropping support for 1) Flash (which has major share in RIA) and 2) Silverlight (which has some share too). An example can be a full-screen video experience, which is still under debate. Let’s hope things get better swiftly with HTML5 standardization and end-user has no restriction in experiencing interactivity in the web-apps.

    I too hope that may be till the next year before the GA of IE10 and win8, the rapid development in HTML5 standards and rapid transition of end-user from Flash/SL to HTML5 may render the mitigation of their respective plugins’ usage. But it sounds too hypothetical.. say another 4 years??

    Bottom-line: when HTML5 specs are completed and the developers have equal freedom to develop and design the RIA, Games etc. with HTML5 as they have with Flash and SL, we would hesitate to accept it as a witty idea to drop the support of these from the browsers. But at the very moment, it’s not applicable.

  118. Kevin Menzel says:

    I should also note – the example of YouTube launching their HTML5 site is a false example. The HTML5 site doesn't even begin to include some of the most popular videos on YouTube – anything that is from a VEVO music video account (which is pretty much every major music video on YouTube) is only viewable in Flash. My guess is that this is because of DRM, and thus this WILL NOT ever change. You can not ask users to compromise their desktop browsing experience like this. People are OK without flash on their mobile devices because if they run into some place they need flash, they can go back to their computer, and do it from there. It's not always convenient, but it's an option. By making Metro the default UI, and making the Metro IE browser the most easily accessible browser in Windows 8, you make that alternative to the limited mobile experience hidden and confusing.

  119. Geo says:

    We have spent the last year and a half working on a killer Rich Client application built in Silverlight.  Many of our classes cross-compile for our Server Side SOAP assemblies, and also Client Side Silverlight application.  We do treeviews, grids, toolbars, menus, and some industry specific things I won't go into.  The point is, being able to leverage our .NET classes for both our server business logic, and client side (when appropriate) has been huge.  Many of these classes will also support our native desktop applications.  Compound this with the broad 3rd party control libraries you can leverage to Rapid-App your way through UI boringness…  I just can't imagine trying to recreate this in HTML5, and frankly I won't even try. I understand Silverlight might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it was (and IS) a perfect spot-on fit for my business needs and the needs of my users.  Sometimes you use an assembler, and sometimes you write C++.  Sometimes you need C# or VB and sometimes Silverlight fits the bill.  Outward facing web portals benefit from HTML and Scripting.  Smart craftsmen pick the right tool for the job.  Driving nails with a rock is just stupid.  Oh, and BTW.  I don't ever want to poke my monitor with my finger on my desktop.  Ever.  Ever Ever.  Or Ever even.

  120. JJL says:

    This is really interesting news for component based RIA frameworks like Vaadin and GWT what do not need plugins targeted for business applications. Now it seems that Silverlight and Flex might be looking for alternatives more extensively than they did after Apple made it clear that iOS will not support plugins. This is especially true for business applications.

  121. Jon says:

    You're really putting usage of the entire Metro interface at risk by taking this hardline stance. Websites will be slow to transition off of plugins and you will be forcing nearly all of your Windows 8 users to go to the classic desktop everytime they want to browse the web. Since my main use of a PC is spent web browsing that means I will be spending very little time in the new Metro interface.

    I hope that there will be alternative web browsers for Metro that do support plugins. I will not be using a web browser that can't browse the full web. The PC user isnt ready to abandon all plugins yet.

  122. Sam says:

    Just tell me if Firefox and Chrome will be allowed to support plugins in their Metro apps??

    I would prefer to not use IE as my browser especially given this news.

  123. Syed says:

    I actually like this that there is a plug-in free IE cause I guess it puts less load on the system, and also no hangs or crashes like some people said :D, but one thing lots of websites require Flash so I guess you still need to use the traditional style of IE, but not bad :D.

  124. user says:

    If Google (or Mozilla) have any sense they till tweak Chrome (Firefox) to work in the Metro mode and allow plugins. This will ensure mass adoption of these browsers, over the built-in IE

  125. Niklas Borson (MSFT) says:

    There seems to be a lot of worry from Silverlight developers that their investment in skills and code will be rendered obsolete by Windows 8. It seems to me the opposite is true. The Silverlight programming model (XAML, etc.) is now a core part of the programming model for Metro-style apps. For example, if you view Steven Sinofsky’s BUILD keynote starting at 58:35, Antoine Leblond takes an existing Silverlight sample app and converts it to a Windows 8 Metro-style app.

    For me, two things stand out from Antoine’s demo. First, the programming models are close enough that very few code changes are needed for the app to build and run. Second, merely running is one thing; working seamlessly with the Metro experience is something else. Jensen Harris gave a great talk at BUILD called “8 traits of great Metro style apps,” in which he says, “It’s necessary to not just reimagine Windows, but also reimagine the apps that run within Windows.” If an app was designed with a more traditional desktop UI in mind, then it makes sense to run that app on a traditional desktop. That includes browser-hosted apps that use plug-ins like Silverlight and Flash. Fortunately, the desktop is still very much a part of Windows 8 and these types of apps still work.

  126. Dave says:

    I agree, there are so many flash games that HTML5 simply cant handle yet. Please let them run in metro mode and not only desktop mode.

    Seems like an unnecessary limitation. What happened to the user choice and no compromise thing?

  127. ShelLuser says:

    Well, there's another reason for me to stick with Windows 7 professional.

    I actually rely on my Office "Send to OneNote" plugin in IE9 quite heavily. If I'd lose that it would make my workflow a whole lot more difficult.

  128. @designbyinfinity

    Never heard of Canvas 3d? I’ll point you here then: wiki.mozilla.org/Canvas:3D

    Also, O3D is an open non-proprietary standard being integrated into browsers alongside HTML5.

    I didn’t call Flash “niche” I called using it for anything other than video mostly “niche”. I do not own or use any apple products. I use Linux, Android, and Windows 7. I am not ignoring the advancements FLASH provided to the end user’s experience of websites, I’m simply recognizing that those days are coming to an end.

    Ads work fine in HTML5, only DRM does not (good riddance).  But did you know that Netflix streaming on the Wii is done over HTML5 just fine without any concerns? Netflix distributes the DRM components through the Nintendo Wii Shop Channel for Wii users, there is no reason they can’t do something similar for other devices that cannot use Flash or SL.  Actionscript and Javascript are alike in more ways than one, rich video controls on Flash aren’t any better than the same recreated in Javascript and arguably Javascript is easier to pick up than Flash despite sharing a similar syntax.  Things like secure streaming and dynamic buffering have already been figured out long before the HTML5 video spec was proposed.

    Flash, Silverlight and Unity3d plugins fork web development and make it proprietary. I’m still not sure why you think these forks are good for developers or the internet. The web was designed for sharing information and communication openly; this shouldn’t be expressed by proprietary plugins and protocols.

    Your arguments implying that flash works on ALMOST all OSes and MOST devices ignores the fact that HTML5 can be run natively in ANY modern browser on ANY device in ANY OS.

    Granted, HTML was designed and is used for markup and presentation, but that’s why we have other standards like Javascript and CSS and O3D. Even now, Google has another working standard Native Client (code.google.com/…/nativeclient) which will allow development of web objects in native C code, allowing developers to create wrappers for things like .NET, Java, Python, Actionscript (via Gnash), and so on; killing the need for proprietary plugins yet again.

    Again, I do not own or use Apple devices. I do like coding in HTML though so if anything you can accuse me of being an HTML fanboy, not a bad thing considering it is an open and standardized format, unlike you being an adobe fanboy touting your proprietary “standard” which isn’t compatible with all devices or OSes…

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win — Mahatma Gandhi “

  129. user says:

    @Supernatendo

    "Things like secure streaming and dynamic buffering have already been figured out long before the HTML5 video spec was proposed."

    Do you know of any production caliber solutions for protected streaming (DRM) that can be used to stream premium video using the HTML5 video tag?

  130. The computer (PC) should swallow the phone.

    PC is a computational devices like a phone or tablet, Microsoft dominates PC (desktop) which can transform (allows a socket for a SIM card to be a phone, allow its screen to be feel touch to be a tablet, unplug its self from the wall and make its self smaller to fit your Desk (desktop), Your Lap (laptop) or Palm (phone or tablet))to any format running  the same engine. This is the route Microsoft should take instead off calling it a phone call it a mini PC (or palmtop) in its marketing campaigns and functioning.

    You should not allow a distinction between the same computational devices (non mobile or mobile) this confuses consumers and producers present a clear path forward just computational devices in deferent physical formats for particular purpose and function running the same engine and not allowing deferent UI across the devices keep the traditional Microsoft UI feel to remind users this is a computer device in your all your marketing campaigns.

    To achieve this remove the metro UI or allow users to choose between normal icon view on a platform (desktop).

    As an mechanical engineer i wont be using my fingers rather a pen or mouse on tablets or phone. The interface can generally be in any visual format (metro style included), if your products force people to change when they don’t want to change this will affect market share and you might loose, allow people to choose what kind of interface they want to use not force a particular visual style on them allow default windows desktop format enlarged to accommodate touch.

    Website interfaces are different relative to the audience or user group, windows OS should have non specific style for a general purpose, this style is not appealing for business, government, academic, student, home users its more appealing to a niche design group, a style that will go out fashion like clothing or any other design. This UI hides the desktop, rather than find software programs or application icon within the desktop, laptop or palmtop (tablet or phone). It should have a main board or platform on its interface where you find all installed software programs/applications not pin social media as core, in business only PR and marketing will use this, how about accounting, operations, Research, Human resource etc, how about government units, how about academic units the user that use this.

    Recommendations: if you like it so much allow users to choose between metro UI and other millions of UI ideas or concepts that can be formed (designed by third parties including other that come with the OS). Or simply enlarge normal windows UI to allow touch (this ui only works for touch not pen or mouse unless you want waste space) for all computer devices (desktop, laptop, palmtop (tablet or phone) with a consistent normal window UI enlarged with a main board/platform with software programs/application icons on it. Allow open use as windows has always been, allow user to reconfigure it in any they like, add external devices (printer, etc drivers coming from a download etc) easily with all the devices like always.

    A quote from steve jobs “users that are familiar with something that, you know, they don’t want a car with six wheels. They like the car with four wheels. They don’t want to drive with a joystick. They like the steering wheel.” allthingsd.com/…/d5-gates-jobs-transcript

    My predictions: The Computer is going to or should swallow the phone, why because it’s a computational device that allow a socket for a SIM card to be a phone, allow its screen to be feel touch to be a tablet, unplug its self from the wall and make its self smaller to fit your Desk (desktop), Your Lap (laptop) or Palm (phone or tablet)

  131. Raynner says:

    Hello folks at Microsoft

    I come here to ask please do not leave the windows open and close buttons, maximize and minimize with square corners, even if you are relying on Metro style is very strange, I hope you will change in future releases.

  132. Adrian Werner says:

    No plugins? I guess I won't be using Metro IE then. I understand the need for speed, but I like my browser games and let's be honest…while HTML5 is nice for browsing it's beyond pathetic when it comes to handling 3D games of the kind Unity3D or other such engines do.

  133. raymond says:

    This is a pain for users who DO not want to go into desktop mode just for something simple. Same thing as people having to go into desktop mode JUST for task manager. It's fine if the user doesn't want to use it to save on battery but it would be nice if there was such an option at the very least. The fact that I have to go into desktop just for a flash plug-in seems pretty much a pain as going into desktop just to manage tasks that are going on.

  134. Doode123 says:

    @Niklas Borson (MSFT) 15 Sep 2011 12:12 PM

    It's

    "…Antoine Leblond takes an existing Silverlight sample app and converts it to a Windows 8 Metro-style app."

    Helloworld app in Metro – I'm thrilled ((.

    Put Jabba-the-Script back where it belongs. Glue for so so news and forum sites.

  135. raymond says:

    the keyword here is option obviously no one is telling you guys to have metro IE to support flash by default but support is necessary if the user wants to use it. For videos I would prefer html 5 video although so far they have NOT invented a good enough way to keep videos and content locked. Nor can the controls of the video/audio player be changed as of yet with just html/css alone.

    But most importantly unless silverlight/flash interactive stuff gets to be able to be converted to HTML 5 but as of today that such transition has not happened. When it can be converted then I don't mind but as of now the interactive sides of plug-ins and the lockdown on copyright have not been met with html5/css so let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's good to keep that in mind for a feature update but in general giving people options is better than forcing people not to even have the choice if they so desire to go with it. The day that html5/css can make something super interactive without requiring javascript or large amount of css is when I'll be fine with no support for flash/silverlight. as of today that has not happened so you should give us the option to choose not take it away from us.

  136. Stefan O says:

    As another Silverlight developer, I'm very disappointed.  We have customers who want their software to be a run on the Mac and PC, Silverlight is the most effective way to do that, but now they are not going to be able to run it on a tablet. We have develop a separate application using different Xaml! This is ridiculous, Microsoft puts millions of dollars into building something only to throw it away and more importantly make developers far more nervous about investing in Microsoft technology.

    …Stefan

  137. B8Blog says:

    @Jhabril Harris how about http://www.bing.com/search

  138. Klimax says:

    One reason why plugins (at least original) are left out is that acording to preliminary documentation only subset of WinAPI and COM will be available to Metro-style apps.

    See:msdn.microsoft.com/…/br205757(v=VS.85).aspx

  139. raymond says:

    that is sad no silverlight for metro apps and no flash support in the browser. what a nice way to mess up investment into silverlight developers had and take away options for the user to choose. I really hope you reconsider. Given the huge amount of investment silvelight developers have dedicated to the program only to have it being taken away from them and now basically wasting their time. The only real benefactors to the Metro UI seems to be web developers who already have a huge knowledge of html5, css, and javascript. oh well sucks for silverlight developers, i guess.

  140. Tiago says:

    This really seems a schrizophenic OS. We Microsoft want to make the tablet OS (competitor of IOS and Desktop OS competitor of MacOX) the same OS. You'll have 2 apps, one for Metro and non-Metro. But the Metro is several limited compared to non-Desktop apps. The idea of having one single OS but having two apps schema, and one is restricted compared to the other is akward to me. Steven said you might never leave the Metro experience. Right but you cant watch Flash. But its the same OS, Windows 8 right? I am scratching my head trying to figure it out the logic of it.

    Altough the worst of it is the start button on Desktop UI. It will lead you to Metro just to search for apps/files. It's the most horrible experience on mouse/keyboard and time wasted.

    Windows 8 will be the start of take away the power of the user Windows always gave us.

    I think if i buy tablet/laptop converter Windows 8 i will manage to disable the Metro via registry hack, while using on laptop mode, and then use a VMWare of Android ICE-Cream to use the touch experience without having any of the limitations like watching a Flash website.

    BTW I love MS products. I even have wp7. I think that Metro Windows 8 is a great tablet experience. But the IE plug-in free, and the use of Metro with keyboard and mouse are to my experience two poorly design ideas…

  141. Yawn says:

    30 seconds of research turns up this

    social.msdn.microsoft.com/…/5301adf6-ab69-45e4-be3d-8623e8108b50

    The sky is just a little cloudy. Not really falling.

  142. Just Crazy says:

    looks like I'll be running windows 7 for a long time to come,  man the mac is looking better everyday. Let me get this straight I have not purchased an Ipad because it does not do flash and silverlight. F**** YOU microsoft and F*** You IE team. Windows 8 (windows your way) oh wait (windows IE team's way). I guess the only way this will change is with low sells. Windows 8(VIsta 2)!!!!!!!!!

  143. alex says:

    people who hate flash:

    can you imagine what would happen if ads will be rebuild to html5 (js)?

    Any animation will works about 2x SLOWER than banner build in flash and of course bigger file size than flash size.

    And another very important thing: with html5 ads there is very probably you'll see naming conflict between e.g. three banners at page (of course there is solution to be free of naming conflicts but these developers who are making now not optimal flash banners will make not optimal and conflictable html5 banners).

    So with flash we see some animated banners which of course takes some CPU. But with html5 they will take more CPU and probably some conflicts which will make: site doesn't works.

  144. So does this mean Metro IE won't support the <applet> tag?

  145. @Dude

    You're misreading my post. I haven't made any claims about the technical advantages of plugin-free video. (and if you're worried about being proved wrong, let's assume for a moment that it's completely impossible that HTML 5, which hasn't even been approved as a fixed standard yet, can't ever be improved. Utter nonsense, but let's assume so.) What I've said is that consumers (as opposed to developers and tech heads who are the audience for this blog) couldn't care less how the content gets to them, only that it works and is easy.

    I am both a tech head and a consumer.

    If I load all-Microsoft software, and visit a Microsoft blog page, I expect that something as bog standard as embedded video will work. If it doesn't, then I come to the conclusion that the website owner is deliberately wasting my time. In this case, Microsoft wants me to download Silverlight. I'm not going to because I don't see the point in wasting the space on my SSD. I have software the does embedded video on 99.99995% of websites and I don't fancy accommodating the 0.00005% of websites that expect me to use Silverlight (which are all entirely Microsoft owned, as far as I can be bothered to find out). They're reasonable enough to know that the video might not work, so they provide download links. That doesn't change the fact that they are attempting to force me to do things the way they want, as opposed to the way that's easiest for me (ie not having to download yet *another* bit of software that as far as I am concerned does the same thing that mutliple other bits of software on my machine already does).

    Here's a more pertinent example: The last time I re-installed Windows, I decided not to bother downloading Java. I found Java desktop apps to be slow, unreliable, and generally not important. Trinkets, mostly. Everything I need Java for, is on a website. I figured I would do a little experiment and see just how quickly my web browsing experience would grind to a halt with no Java Runtime installed.

    That was 6 months ago. I haven't had a single problem. My machine already has a javascript engine. Why do I need two bits of software to do the same job? Answer: I don't. If I wanted to use a Java application, I would need it. But I haven't had any need to do so, and I don't think I ever will.

  146. J. Allard says:

    Leave it to Microsoft to screw the consumer again. Little wonder why their software is the most bootlegged software out there. The funny thing is that try as they may Microsoft can't stop it. I personally don't bootleg software, but I don't blame others who do. Everything that happens against Microsoft is well deserved in my opinion.

  147. @BDawg hit it on the nail. This blog post is the nail in the coffin for Silverlight.

    Yes, on the desktop it lives on – good luck with that. The desktop will live on, everyone knows that, but it will be specifically for those who actually do stuff requiring the power of a desktop. Adobe tools, VStudio, etc. – yeah, "advanced users" and developers. That encompasses the "desktop market".

    So for all of you SL developers, or were "thinking about it", don't waste your time. You will be investing time in a dying technology. Your audience will be, well, yourselves. Would you invest your time on that kind of market? The vast majority of "consumer" type users, will be on devices – and well, SL and Flash are no-gos

    Sad….but at least I finally got "closure" and finality on this that helps future planning/investments.

  148. @BDawg hit it on the nail. This blog post is the nail in the coffin for Silverlight.

    Yes, on the desktop it lives on – good luck with that. The desktop will live on, everyone knows that, but it will be specifically for those who actually do stuff requiring the power of a desktop. Adobe tools, VStudio, etc. – yeah, "advanced users" and developers. That encompasses the "desktop market".

    So for all of you SL developers, or were "thinking about it", don't waste your time. You will be investing time in a dying technology. Your audience will be, well, yourselves. Would you invest your time on that kind of market? The vast majority of "consumer" type users, will be on devices – and well, SL and Flash are no-gos

    Sad….but at least I finally got "closure" and finality on this that helps future planning/investments.

  149. BenW says:

    WinRT the new Plug-in?

  150. What about the 64 bit browser flash technology? how this support will be consistent with the company adobe? at the moment, still not available a full version of flash player for 64 bit Explorer. Cases will be like Apple?

  151. Chris McGrath says:

    @Supernatendo Actually I quite agree with you, Most of the silverlight stuff I've done is for the phone. And I'm not completely against them removing silverlight from the metro browser.

    But the way microsoft is announcing this is stupid. It's like when they made that comment about the Metro being htmlish or whatever, they didn't bother clarifying that there was a story for .NET developers and a lot of them got angry.

    I see them repeating the same mistake here. They didn't bother to mention silverlight specifically. If they are going to remove it by explicitly telling us so, instead of having people get angry now and angry when they clarify it, they would only have people angry once. If it is a mistake and there's an exception for silverlight (I think that's unlikely) people have got angry for no reason. And if they are removing it, but it has a work around story (like there's an out of browser option) then people don't get to here this.

  152. dpgj says:

    Sounded as if Microsoft is so caring and innovative to introduce plug-in free web browsing. It is understandable that sometime we take credit from other people but becomes a joke if who the credit belongs to is so widely know. Ah… what? You invented Internet as well?

  153. Ahyeah! says:

    This is excellent news!

    First Apple and now MS is finally catching up.

    The demise of Flash is well under way!

  154. @Supernatendo

    Of course I have heard of Canvas 3D.. but that's not part of HTML5 spec. So that's the end of that. maybe in HTML6 in like 10 years.

    Second, I get it.. you are a JS/HTML monkey who never bothered to learn anything and was left in the dust when everyone was making money building experiences and apps with Flash and Silverlight. Now you think by forcibly taking out a technology that's far more advanced is something that might get you relevant again.

    Btw, this is not a big deal either way, For desktop experience, Flash still works, for Metro apps we'll be using AIR and all the best things with Flash.

    HTML5/JS/CSS3 can replace some of the functionality of Flash but are so behind in so many things Flash will be relevant for a looong time.

    Nobody is saying don't do stuff in HTML5. Everyone is saying why are superior technologies deliberately being sabotaged when the choice is important. If Flash and Silvelight are bad technologies and HTML5 is better and you can do everything, why just not let it die out itself. That's how everything worked so far.

    Now, we HAVE TO kill something so other thing would work. That's the most ridiculous and anti-technology stance if I ever saw one and fueled PURELY by self-interests and ignorance.

  155. @EdSF1

    Most consumers are on devices and Android at the moment. And Flash is very much a go.

  156. MARTIN says:

    more work for window 8 preview. slower, no screen resolution, cant play dvd's. moremore work for windows 8.

  157. MARTIN says:

    more work for window 8 preview. slower, no screen resolution, cant play dvd's. moremore work for windows 8.

  158. MARTIN says:

    more work for window 8 preview. slower, no screen resolution, cant play dvd's. moremore work for windows 8.

  159. Vinchenzo says:

    I think so Silverlight can't dead, Metro is only a UI.

    Silverlight would work on Opera, Firefox, Chrome etc, and the second version of IE 10.

    Silverlight can work in OOB Mode with Win8, so MS don't want to kill hill.

    The "all HTML5" is heretic, we can't going back for "compatibility". What compatibility ? Silverlight is MS technology !!!

  160. Nikola says:

    IE having problems with plugins ? use Opera for tablets 😉 http://www.opera.com/…/tablets

  161. mark says:

    what about Smooth Streaming and Playready in Metro ? there are a lot of brodcaster and midia compay that have invested in Smooth Streaming and Playready. Is this supported in video tag in metro or no ?

  162. jamiet says:

    @shelluser

    "

    Well, there's another reason for me to stick with Windows 7 professional.

    I actually rely on my Office "Send to OneNote" plugin in IE9 quite heavily. If I'd lose that it would make my workflow a whole lot more difficult.

    "

    Don't worry. I've no doubt that that same functionality will be possible using the Share charm/contract.

  163. @designbyinfinity and all followers

    I have NEVER understood why non-MS developers really HATE MS developers. The opposite does not happen. Tooling is the key phrase. Let's accept, for the sake of argument I can do everything Flash and SL does with HTML5. I don't know the IDE for flash, which judging by the acceptance of flash and the result must be very effective, but have you heard of VS LightSwitch, Expression Blend and all these evil, productive, effective developer tools for creating SL web APPLICATIONS, not sites, APPLICATIONS.

    My suggestion: screw Flash, screw Silverlight, screw HTML5. A common assembly language for all platforms and processors is the solution. Also you small magnets to directly program our code on the surface of HDs. This is the future, this is the way to go.

    To be less aggresive, Flash and Silverlight (it's not good to blame something just because you don't like it) have gone a long way (especially silverlight since I know more about it) unifying the desktop and web experience. In my opinion this is the way to go. When HTML5 is ready to provide desktop application for the web and the proper tools are out to develop LOB applications in HTML5, even then you can favor but never FORBID (because this is what MS looks like is doing with Metro HTML5) Flash, SL or any other plug-in. And if SL is somehow "convertible", this eases my worries, but, not being a heretic like people cursing Flash and SL because they don't like it, anyhow I totally disagree with the idea of FORBIDING ANYTHING(for some secret planning we cannot know but suspect). It should be obvious to anyone that this kind of policies have nothing to do with what's best like "HTML5 rules, die plug-ins" (there is no such thing eitherway), but it's clear it has to do with money and marketing decisions.

  164. Tom says:

    Hi,

    I am writing on behalf of readers of tabletowo.pl

    We are asked now if it is true that on devices like tablets there will be only Metro UI available (no desktop mode for tablets). And if this means it will not be possible to access sites like netflix, hulu or others using Flash and Silverlight for media streaming. Could you tell us few words about this?

  165. @Kostas

    the point is here that companies are making decisions about technology because they have monopolies.

    I really don't mind doing stuff in HTML5. It's great but it's still half baked and has LONG way to go before it actually works great and same on all browsers and platforms and achieves close to feature parity Flash and Silverlight or any other plugin offers. It's still not there. Not to mention creative tools, developer tools and so on at the level of Silverlight or Flash. Flash is very mature and works wonderfully and is just joy to build stuff. Same goes for Unity for example and it exporting to Flash as well.

    The real issue here is that if HTML5 is better, people will use it and it will automatically replace Flash if it gets things done in a better way or with better performance. The problem is that companies like MIcrosoft and Apple are doing these things out of agendas and limiting choices not for some noble reason. It's funny that Google/Adobe two companies well known for bringing tools and services who are open and cross-platform support Flash as well as any other technology in addition to HTML5 while the two most proprietary companies are trying to sell us how we should be open and use HTML5 by killing choices. Talk about hypocrisy.

    Look at Android. Why is it such a problem for Microsoft to allow support for Flash and Android and Google have no problems?

    In Android you can disable Flash completely (meaning you don't have to install it and even if yo do install it, you can disable plugin support in the browser and do it ON-DEMAND) and you will be browsing and seeing alternative content for some of these services in HTML5. If you hate Flash, you just don't install it.

    To completely ditch plugins is the most anti-consumer and ridiculous decision, not to mention that Flash actually runs faster than HTML5 on mobile, Stage3D and StageVideo completely use GPU with near zero CPU utilization and don't waste any more battery than HTML5 video for example.  So the whole argument about battery is nonsense.

    The point is, as a company who actually allowed plugins and all kinds of diversity on their platform, Microsoft is trying to be Apple. And not in the best possible way (in terms of UI, design etc) but by mimicking their most retarded and draconian policies on a platform.

    I think Microsoft is making a HUGE mistake. They are alienating developers developers developers. The ones who help them get where they are.. and yes, thanks to Adobe and plugins in general but more importantly CHOICES, Windows has become a huge consumer OS.

    Microsoft needs to understand that they can't be Apple. And they shouldn't be. They need to be Microsoft and allow all these great technologies to work just as well as HTML5 will on Metro. Giving choice is never bad.

    They are not in a position where they can start doing crap like this. They are behind on everything. Disaster in mobile space, disaster in tablet space (aka non-existent) and they are even late in the OS space in terms of doing something new and longer term.

    Now, when they should be showing everyone how it should be done, they start playing Apple BS.

    Nobody says you should abandon or not pursue great things with HTML5 support in Windows and Metro. But not at the expense of other technologies that allowed services and ideas and creativity to explode on the web and that millions and millions of people and business are still relying on and using.

  166. Georg Scholz says:

    This article is about Flash, but what will happen to Silverlight?

  167. Tiago says:

    @designbyinfinity Agreed 100%.

    MS is trying to copy Apple (closed) model but that simply wont work. Android is doing what Microsoft have always made. User choice.

    This is not an security-battery based choice. Its a political one. How on earth is battery if then it will be possible for people to switch to IE non-Metro non touch design and use Flash? This is a blind decision on user satisfaction. The issues will remain when people switch to an inconvient user-experience. This is just bullshit. Android is making the right decisions.

    And Android in future will close the gap of their short-coming. It will hardware accelarate the entire OS and performance tunning.

    Maybe Android will rule the world.

    I am sure that all of wp7 limitations will migrate to windows 8 Metro. Bluetooth transfer, Flash, Silverlight, Java, etc…

  168. Lennie says:

    For all those people who say plugins should be allowed:

    1. This decision was made by Microsoft to make sure browsing with the new touch-UI HTML5 works without problems and force all other touch-UI-optimized applications into the Windows (App) Store. All existing applications still work on the desktop and but do not fit touch-based UI (yet). They are obviously trying to make Metro a good experience for devices which support touch. Keyboard support will probably improved too.

    2. For developers: tooling is on the way, Visual Studio will have support for HTML5, you will easily be able to transition from Silverlight to API for Metro. Adobe will create tooling muse.adobe.com This like Hype already exist: tumultco.com/…/features

    3. HTML5 will get better, for example webcam support is on the way, HTML5 video streaming support is being worked on. So maybe DRM will also be supported "just install a codec" ?. 3D is supported, not sure if IE will get support for WebGL though.

    4. With IE10 HTML5 support IE will be much improved. There will be IE10 for Windows 7 and Vista too.

    Geez, lighten up a little.

  169. I hope that MSFT doesn't put its foot in its mouth by still supporting SilverLight then while not support non-MSFT plugins. I think there can't be double standards here.

  170. Fanboy says:

    Let's get rid of cars with wheels today! Everyone knows cars will fly in the future.

  171. @Lennie.. this is all going to be at the level of tools of Flash and creative apps for example but like 10-15 years ago.

    HTML5 was NEVER meant to be used for desktop applications. CSS3 and JS inefficiencies in performance even when hardware accelerated are awful. I have built many HTML/CSS3/JS experiences and I can tell you it's A DISASTER.. The reality is that you have to sh*t bricks to get everything to work on all platforms (because not every browser and platform render and treat things the same in HTML5 and this is because of their own implementations, rendering engines, CSS support etc etc).  Microsoft doesn't care about that because their only interest is to get all of the guys building HTML5/JS/CSS and write for Metro but in a way where it will still use a bunch of proprietary stuff from underlying platform.

    Webcam is also very flakey. Google is working on it but it's a mess (compare it to Flash for example where it's dead simple and so easy and now has peer 2 peer live streaming etc etc) . It's coming BUT when?! We are talking years down the road for many features you are talking about. Everything being built now (or trying to be built now) in JS is also very dependent on browsers themselves and what APIs they expose. So fragmentation in browsers will make sure that you will have to write several versions of code to make it work flawlessly on all platforms. This 2000 all over again.

    While it's much better now, having the basic and simplistic video and audio tags are not enough. They are way too simple and basic and there is no amount of code you can write that will overcome those inabilities.

    This is not about progress, this is about agendas.

    Microsoft taking out plugins, Apple taking out plugins and pushing HTML5 instead gives all the power back to browser and OS vendors.

    In order for you for example to have certain accessibility to underlying OS APIs through Javascript a vendor has to allow you to do that. They have to build in support in a browser or OS and they have control over that.

    With plugins that was not the case or at least less dependent. Since it is running basically an executable or library, a plugin company can make whatever they want and expand it like mic and camera support and other stuff we've seen over the years.

    The bottom line is that by excluding 3rd parties from the browser they have complete control over what you can and can't use and they are the ones allowing things.

    Considering how slow web body and standards evolve and what track record Microsoft has with following it, this will be crap.

    Plugins have and will allow innovation. They allowed us to bypass inconsistency and the issues that we had in browsers with HTML and JS and CSS and compatibility and so on and allowed real progress on the web.

    Doing exactly the opposite, because HTML5 is "open" (which it always was) is basically all about control. And that's where you will see the problems we are still facing.. When Google starts innovating in Chrome and adding additional API support while Microsoft does something completely different and Firefox does their own thing. It's a recipe for a disaster. And it's already happening btw.. Google is adding their own stuff and native client and all that in Chrome, Microsoft is doing their own thing now with Metro and Metro HTML5 with their own tools like Blend and Expression and so on.

    I'm not criticizing HTML5. I'm just saying, eliminating plugins forcefully is not a good thing. If anything, they will die out by themselves if they don't innovate and we can do everything with HTML5/JS/CSS3. There is absolutely no need to do it like Apple and Microsoft now with Metro are doing.

    Google is the only company that is doing it right these days. They equally support plugins as well as HTML5 on all their platforms and services. And there is a very good example of that. Their Chrome Store. There are tons of apps using all tools and technologies there in making engaging games, apps etc that will run on Chromebooks in Chrome. It only gives richness to applications and doesn't hurt anyone. This doesn't prevent them from innovating in HTML5/JS and browser space, but they are aware that we have long way to go before HTML5 can replace things we have today with plugins if ever. Having plugins is significant because tomorrow when some of the things we are so used to with Flash are able to be done with HTML5 in one way or the other are taken for granted, a plugin (Flash or whatever) will do something even better and push innovation even further.

    We are already seeing that JQuery and all these things and sites being built in HTML5 are basically mimicking what we have been doing 10-15 years ago with plugins. That's not a bad thing but it shows very clearly why plugins are very important and how slow web standards are in innovating and improvement. Whether or not you use plugins should be up to us, not Microsoft or Apple to decide.

  172. ianicbass says:

    Windows 8 = tablet on desktop. They reimagined windows alright.

  173. Paulo Torres says:

    We, Windows 7 users, will have Metro?

  174. @designbyinfinity

    I applaud you!

    Also, add into equation GreaseMonkey and all that's left of Html5 compatibility flies out of the window.

    @Lennie

    I don't need to be reminded that Html is the typography technology of the past. Thanks.

  175. @Steven Sinofsky the first link worked perfectly. Thank you. Although, I didn't think their would be so many links on it (yet)!

  176. windows bob says:

    Use HTML5 with phonegap and Sencha instead SL dudes for the mobile aspects of your apps.

    Keep the SL application style bits.

    Hope MS will create a wrapper for Silverlight apps, so they can go into the app store???

  177. Niclas Lindgren says:

    As another note on this, I was trying to watch the Build session videos on channel 9, it defaults to HTML5 video. The quality is really bad compared to the SL stream, also you can't do full screen without popping it out to windows media player..

    In what way is HTML5 a better experience then the current SL experience?

  178. I find it amazing your IE9 64 bit doesn't work and is next to impossible to work with flash and your already releasing a new product.  I've been programing HTML 5 with fall backs to flash and vise / versa for different clients.  You should leave it up to the content people to decide and not give us battery life and security issues.  If it were really that bad you could just get a joint-venture group between Adobe and MS. to work things out.  It's not like there in the OS business, but you guys make a habit of trying to copy everything out there.  I'm a PC not a Mac…. but here is a thought.  If you MS guys just stuck to developing a decent OS and Office suite that actually worked right… you would be even better off.

  179. WEBx says:

    I don't want to remove all the java and flash from my website :(

  180. Grx_jn says:

    I'ts a pity to see that when a technology is used by 99% of the population, industrial group do everything they can to make it not work.

  181. Mac says:

    Dear Mr. Sinkofsky

    After working with w8 preview, I seriously worry that Metro GUI for the whole Windows (or parts of it) might mean Microsoft is going to gain 50-100 million tablets at the cost of 1 billion PCs and laptops. It is even possible that neither of markets accept it that good.

    I would continue current windows but provide 2 totally separate shells (like Linux, where you can select your window manager at login). One window manager would do PCs, the other would do tablets.

    A software product manager with 20 years of experience.

  182. I wonder how stupid Microsoft is. Skipping Flash realy sucks. No Flash is the reason why I didn't bought an Apple iPad. Microsoft stop copying Apple. Do your own thing!!! Look at Windows Phone 7. I don't like it, because it is as restrictive as Apple's iOS. And for those who don't like flash: Just deactivate it in IE under add-ons. Wheres the problem?

  183. Niclas Lindgren says:

    Hello,

    I am wondering if you are deliberately screening posts, I have posted twice about the same post without having it being published (successfuly posted though), while other posts have gone through.

    It is fine if you don't want certain things to be published, but at least have the curtesy if so to let me know why it isn't being passed through.

    My posts was about your compatbility story, as a metro IE without plugins will cut coords with the current deployments scenarioes used in XP, Vista, Win7 and Mac for SL, where you can browse to the apps. It would all be fine if we can easily do the same thing by having Metro IE10 being able to install and launch (at least launch) a metro app.

    Many LoBs integrate into a larger website, and today that integration is seemless to the user, some parts of the site is pure HTML some is SL, some is flash, where more advanced features are needed.

    Sure MS developers can bring their skills for Metro apps, but it isn't very nice to give all the developers this kind of legacy deployment scenario nightmare, most machines out there that today are targeted by LoBs will still be running something else than Win8 and so far I have seen no way to guide the user through this transition.

    Will we be able to bet on Metro apps and WinRt to last when SL is being abruptly cut like this? I have my doubts and I really don't think I am alone no matter your good intentions.

    I doubt you want the world to produce all apps in pure HTML5 thus skipping Metro all together, at least they will be sure the effort isn't lost as it is very much OS independent.

    I understand why SL/Flash in Metroy might be a problem witht he suspend state, but.. solve it instead of ducking and leaving your faithful MS tech devs stranded.

    Let tech die by itself, not by dictation. If HTML5 is so much better it will be used, but there really is a good reason why SL and Flash is used and it is very technical reasons not religious or comfort zones.

    Cheers,

    Niclas

  184. Smith says:

    Please use the classic desktop theme in meters as well

  185. Shal says:

    Only 3 tiles in Metro works – Windows Explorer, Desktop and Control Panel

    Running on VirtualBox 4.1.2

  186. Disturbed says:

    So you're going to cut the cord on Silverlight a platform that only two years ago you were hailing as the next big thing.

    I started a major project in SL 2 and a half years ago on the basis that Microsoft doesn't cut it's developers off at the knees like Apple has done in the past. This is a complete kick in the teeth.

    If you're going to force us to be HTML 5 developers then I for one will choose a platform other than MSFT.

  187. B8Blog says:

    @Niclas Lindgren — comments are not moderated by humans, just a spam filter which is fully automated.

  188. Teodoro says:

    @Steven Sinofsky, completely remove the Windows Aero 8. Metro also on the desktop. Say yes, say yes.

  189. No Silverlight in Metro IE? Huge dissapointment! Please support Silverlight and other 3rd party plugins in all versions of IE, including IE on ARM, otherwise Windows 8 is doomed. What are you thinking? I don't want another dumb iPad! I have 3 years invested in XAML development, including Silverlight. Now you are telling me to throw that away to use HTML 5 crap instead? Apple used power consumption as a lame excuse to ban Flash on iOS, but it was really about them protecting their App Store. Let the users decide whether to enable IE plugins or not! If I had a Windows 8 tablet and the battery life went down from 10 hours to 1 because I use a Flash/Silverlight App, then let that be my choice!!!

  190. Have I said how right down ugly Metro is?  When Apple launches something like it, will be painful. Really painful for you guys. How ugly, poor designed, flat — even a 3 year old could draw those squares and colors — this design is.

  191. Duncan says:

    Plugin means Rich Internet Application without 30% fees of the Market Place.

    It sounds Market Places are the new Eldorado for everyone so plugins become evil.

  192. I forgot to mention one important thing in my previous post.

    Most people use SL and or Flash for productivity reasons, Microsoft has, in my view, always been about productivity, that’s how we sell the idea to buy your quite expensive MSND subscription and tools to our manager/investors. HTML5 can be use, but it does not, I and bet never will, have the productivity of other languages. It is an inherent problem in javascript and HTML for that matter too. It was not designed for productivity. You are doing nice things with VS to make HTML/javascript less painful, but do remember all the things you do is something that we take absolutely for granted in any other language. The same goes for HTML5 on the whole, things you “can” do there are things we are taking for granted in SL or Flash.

    You definitely need a great HTML5 device, but that doesn’t mean at all that you can’t have a great SL device as well. Perhaps SL on XP,Vista,Win7 and Mac needs to be able to run a WinRT C#/XAML app out of the box? Perhaps WinRT is the new SL runtime? That would solve a lot of issues with the developer story, of course we need to rewrite software, but at least we can deploy great experiences in C# to a lot of devices

    If you remove the productivity tie to your platform, what is left for me as a compelling reason to specifically target your platform? And also please stand by your compatibility promise, that includes not only being able to run applications, but also deploy and maintain applications.

    You seem really afraid to mention SL (even WPF) at the moment, ScotGu danced on his toes when trying to explain what he is doing nowadays and what he isn’t doing. Perhaps you have a story that is not ready to be told perhaps you don’t. But if you don’t, then you better let the world know and not delay and drag. You announced SL5 beta just days before Build. Get your story straight, let us have the pain once and be done with it or present a story. You don’t beat the competition by copying them you beat them by doing what you used to do great in the past as well as bringing new innovation and market opportunities

    And on a side note, the start button in desktop mode really needs to go back to the old style start menu, the look is really out of place and it really hinders the desktop experience. Just try launching a new program in the win7 style "WIN+type program name+enter", not a very nice experience.

    Spell checking all over windows is a very compelling consumer reason though, wish I had typed the previous article in Win 8..unfortunately the windows 8 installer completely shuts down the computer when trying to install on an Vertex 2 SSD on a ASUS 1101HA, if I change to a normalt SATA HD it installed, go figure. Not sure where and how to report that as the computer just shuts down.

    I do like the Metro style metaphor for consumption only devices, but the desktop experience is the way to go to produce/author content. I bet you don't type your long posts on a touch screen device do you?

    Both experiences have to be compelling and also split but with a seamless transition between the two, not the mixed feeling you get in the desktop mode at the moment.

  193. Mirronelli says:

    First you come and tell us: "Hey devs, let's code in SilverLight. It is the new web. We are going to rewrite all MS Web in Silverlight". And you really did a portion of that. Then you come and say: "Hey devs, let's code in HTML and forget what you learned in Silverlight. We do not believe in what we told you before."

    Well actually you are going to screw developers who devoted their potential to silverlight. You are

    going to screw companies that invested money to silverlight. Then you are going to screw your customers who are accustomed to use your browser and OS to look at their favorite sites and lots of them use flash and SL (There will be no Desktop IE on ARM).

    So it seems like you don't really care how much damage are you delivering to the devs that listened to you. You don't want to give a competitive advantage to win arm tablets over ipads. Because people do lack flash on iPads.

    What is  it you want to achieve again?

  194. TF says:

    MS is achieving stupid decisions they're making. I really wonder why…

  195. dc says:

    If MIcrosoft were going to do away with Silverlight, then why are they about to release a new major version of it, 5.0?

    http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight

  196. Pessimist says:

    "Pessimists may criticize…"

    "Pessimists may also try to debate…"

    Wow! That sounds like you're really open to hearing other ideas and issues with your implementation. There's no way to kill a new product more quickly than to think you are smarter that your customers.

    You justfy excluding plug-ins by saying that people are used to browsers on other platforms without them. What you're forgetting is that these other platforms are DEVICES not FULL BLOWN PCs!!! So you come late to market with a browser that can do LESS than your competition. You can't play Flash or even your own Silverlight media in the Metro browser. Brilliant! "Dear fellow Silverlight devs in Microsoft: You are the suck. You aren't getting an invite to the party. Love Dean." You excuse yourself by saying users can still run the desktop version of IE yet whe I click on links in a Word document Windows 8 opens them in the Metro browser. Too bad if that link was to something that required a plug-in. Sounds like Microsoft is trying to use its market dominance to get people off of Flash and Silverlight and move them to HTML5 — now there's a nice gift for Apple. Instead you could build your own plug-in for Flash & Silverlight that would launch playback to a full-screen window and keep people in that same simple touch first environment and not add any chrome to the experience. That's just about how my little Android phone works. I guess you guys aren't tallented enough to pull that off. That's too bad.

  197. Jose says:

    I honestly feel MS should build plugin support into Metro IE and let the user decide wether to run the plugin or not. For apps that have heterogenous mixed mode in there sites, bits of HTML and Plugins(to enhance experience), you have basically given us the middle finger.

    Yes I know we can go to desktop BUT it's not a nice experience if they're comming from metro first. Why such hate for a technology that has helped make the web what it is today!

    Sadend by MS's short sitedness!!! :(

  198. samhunt says:

    Windows 8 team, is it possible to let us access tabs by bringing the cursor to the top of the screen? Having to right-click every time i wanted to see my tabs would be a bit tedious. I just think having both options would be nice.

  199. I have a question nobody has asked yet. Will you allow third party browsers for metro (using c++ and DirectX 11 through winrt, presumably. Secondly, are native apps allowed to dynamically load and run code e.g. from isolated storage or elsewhere (please say yes, because if you say no, there are a ton of corporate/business platform+module style apps that will NEVER be ported to metro, and that's a shame). Finally, is there going to be a user friendly way to install metro apps (properly signed or not, with the appropriate warnings to the user if not), without going through the marketplace?

    My two cents: while I agree that in many cases, browser plugins plus touch centric browsers and low end hardware don't mix well at all, I also think that it should be the user who decides whether to load plugins or not, and more importantly, THAT decision should not have anything to do with whether the user wants a touch centric browser or a desktop style browser.

    There are serious problems with your heavy handed approach to plugin support in metro IE. While it is true that the desktop version is available, the desktop itself consumes system resources, and on memory and CPU constrained tablet device, tht just might be the tipping point to making it impossible to view that DRM protected HD movie at full framerate, or that favorite flash game that will never be ported to html5. plus, I am a power user, I understand the whole plugins/no plugins limitation. But most of your users will do this:

    1) go to a website in metro that requires flash.

    2) see message saying flash is required, click here to install it.

    3) large percentage of users will get stuck here, not technical enough to follow install instructions, or too afraid to. Otherwise, go on:

    4) user installs plugin successfully. Chances are it was already installed to begin with.

    5) user goes back to site in metro, and site still doesn't work. User gets frustrated. Persistent sets repeat step 4, others:

    6) conclude one of two things or both: IE is broken, and or windows 8 is broken.

    The point i am trying to make is that you should allow plugins to run in the metro browsing experience, even if you have to make plugin vendors rewrite their plugins in winrt, and even if you default it to off.

    Baring that, you should (and you may possibly have to, considering past issues with regulatory agencies, particularly in the EU), make it possible to write a third party browser in metro and make it possible for that browser to support plugins. And, if you won't allow that browser on the marketplace (boo, bad call), at least allow end users to install apps into metro from outside the marketplace.

  200. HTML5 says:

    Open standards stack HTML5/CSS3/Javascript/WebGL will always win against closed, proprietary plugin crap like Flash and Silverlight.

    Those that bet against it aka Flash developers and Siliverlight developers never learn, thats why they're the biggest losers on the Internet and now are crying and whining over it.

  201. Tom Mason says:

    I wonder how the enforced use of IE10 in Metro will play with the EU. For windows 7 Microsoft was forced to include the browser selection option to appease EU lawmakers over the abuse of a monopoly to lock out competitors in the browser market. I foresee similar lawsuits flying over the Metro browser.

  202. TF says:

    well, and Safari on IPAD or Chrome on Android? Or Safari on Mac Book? Why is that any different?

  203. FLASH and Silverlight says:

    "Open" is a rebranded "Stolen". You can't sell what you steal, so you repack it and give away with your expensive hardware, or bundleware, or crapware.

    Flash and Silverlight win big time, cheap junk HTML sucks dust.

  204. TF says:

    Ironically IE Mobile, Safari are closed browsers with no access to external plug-ins.

    Google is truly open. And not closed only to 'open' html5…

  205. IE says:

    metro-IE opens any web resource, not just metro-app. So why block plugins, or force to switch into desktop?

    Let me also point out ugly Nazi Swastika buttons and menus.

    Or is it how nonsense multi-culturism and diversity supposed to appeal to general public? By dumbing down what should be instead uplifting and inspiring?

  206. IE says:

    Actually, Nazi Swastika was Ok,

    … but this IE stuff is travesty.

  207. Jason says:

    Angry doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about this, you are excluding features from the web browser and trying to sell this as a positive… You had better reconsider your position on this.

  208. RazorX says:

    And besides Flash, "plug-in free" also means no Silverlight, Java, and no Unity plug-in either! Microsoft couldn't break Flash's hold on RIA with Silverlight, so now they are tossing Silverlight to the curb. I have to say that both the Flash and Unity plug-ins are definitely required if you want to play cool games on the Web, especially now that Flash has Stage3D and that Unity can now mirror-port to Flash's Stage3D.

    HTML5 has a video tag and that's about the only thing that is halfway useful in HTML5. But in reality HTML5 video still has streaming and stuttering problems and no DRM protection. Flash is still miles ahead of HTML5 video in features and performance.

    Many people are pretty ignorant when they throw around the "HTML5" term, because what they actually mean (and are seeing is a generous mix of) is CSS and jQuery. Dumb people are just lumping CSS, JavaScript, JQuery, XML and a video tag into what they ignorantly call HTML5 when it's not.

    The Flash argument has already been answered in the form of actual proof on both mobile phones and a multitude of tablets running Flash without problems. Video itself drains battery life no matter how good the technology. HTML5 drains battery life MORE than Flash does.

    Flash and other plug-ins like Unity should be a free choice on the Web. If you have any brains at all, then you would see that allowing companies to dictate to you no-plugins is a violation of your freedom of choice. Apple could have easily allowed Flash on the iPad and could have given the user the freedom of choice to turn it on or off, but everyone now knows Apple is a closed system to the Web. That's the beauty of a plug-in though, if you don't like it just turn it OFF and don't use it. A lot of people have also forgotten that JavaScript is also a plug-in. You can open up your browser and turn JavaScript off just like any other plug-in. If you turn JavaScript off, then every so-called HTML5 web site goes "bye-bye".

  209. good thing you can still install chrome says:

    I think around half the people I spoke to at the conference had installed either Chrome or Firefox. You need to run these in the desktop mode but they both work well. There are a number of add-ins that you can install that get you better touch compatibility. You can also run them in full screen to get a similar effect to the Metro IE. The no plug-in idea is lame if only because it is an inconsistent user experience. If the user makes the choice to install the plug-in he or she should be able to use that in both browsers.

  210. I’m a designer & developer; I like and use both technologies.

    HTML5 is a new standard, but it’ll not replace Flash. Apart from other matters, Flash uses vectors, typography, and complex animations and actions that, in most cases, are very hard and impossible to build with HTML5. It’s not true that Flash it’s “buggy software”. It can run very stable on my PC. Sometimes I have more than 15 websites using Flash opened in different tabs of the browser, and it never hangs.

    I use Google Chrome as my default browser and it’s the most stable browser in the market. I can make a video to proof that it is true what I’m telling you.

    I list here some examples of websites made with Flash:

    http://www.moquo.com.ar/…/list.html

    And the question for developers and Flash-haters is: Can you do these websites with HTML5? I don't think so.

    HTML5 is very welcome too. You can do amazing things coding in HTML5, of course. Both are good technologies, and I think the users have the right to use whatever they like; so I think it’s not a good idea to forbid Flash or other plug-ins in IE10. The plug-ins can be disabled by choice.

  211. Jason says:

    arstechnica.com/…/only-enterprise-and-developers-can-bypass-windows-store-for-metro-apps.ars

    Metro is front and centre, a locked down shop for Microsoft to take a cut off all of your software purchases, of course they had to get rid of Flash and Silverlight and Unity, for "safety" reasons! *

    They have already packed the developer build with woeful impressions of free Flash games, now it seems they are going to want you to buy them and hand over 30% of the price for the privilege (COMPULSORILY)…. Oh and as for the battery argument, watch your battery drain as you play "native" games, it's exactly the same or worse.

    If they had a side-loading check box none of this would be an issue, but the OS producer/device manufacturer should NEVER control the pricing and distribution of all software exclusively.

    This is the most distasteful money grab I have seen since Job's thoughts on Flash rhetoric (/lies)…

    DISGUSTING.

    I am sick of these billion dollar companies trying to control and lock down their customers choices so they can "pad" their bottom line. You had the opportunity to beat them, but instead you decided to join them.

    * If anyone has actually had malware installed on their systems through Flash, Silverlight, Unity or ANY browser plugin I would genuinely like to hear about your experience, as I have NEVER met anyone who has.

  212. Mac Lover says:

    Abandon Java, abandon Flash.

    Move forward with HTML5 new possibilities.

    Improve HTML5 so that it will be able to replace them in full 100%, with no regrets.

  213. CLOSED, PROPRIETARY GARBAGE IS DEAD says:

    FLASH IS DEAD, SILVERLIGHT IS DEAD. DON'T LIKE IT, MOVE TO iOS…. OH WAIT

    THERE'S NO FLASH OR SILVERLIGHT THERE EITHER.

  214. Sam says:

    So let me get this straight…. Microsoft cannot out engineer google or RIM? Really? Sorry not buying it at all. This seems more like a cop out.

    Microsoft should have a little more confidence in their abilities. They need to stop getting bullied around by Steve Jobs, at this point it's getting pretty embarrassing!!!!

  215. Sam says:

    So let me get this straight…. Microsoft cannot out engineer google or RIM? Really? Sorry not buying it at all. This seems more like a cop out.

    Microsoft should have a little more confidence in their abilities. They need to stop getting bullied around by Steve Jobs, at this point it's getting pretty embarrassing!!!!

  216. I can understand you makeing it Plug-in free by default, by why not allow us to ADD the plug-ins we want to the mobile browser? Yes, Not too many will be thrilled about having to swtich to the desktop just to see certain types of content.

  217. Frank says:

    "We examined the use of plug-ins across the top 97,000 sites world-wide, a corpus which includes local sites outside the US in significant depth. Many of the 62% of these sites that currently use Adobe Flash already fall back to HTML5 video in the absence of plug-in support."

    So just to be clear…. of the top 100,000 websites (well nearly apparently the last 3,000 was either too much to survey or completely Flash driven), the MAJORITY use Flash, and of this MAJORITY, "many" have html5 fall backs. Can we have a number to put to that "many" statement????

    Effectively Microsoft has taken upon itself the duty of dictating what people can use to deliver websites on the internet. This is effectively restricting access to the content of sites, either making it impossible, or awkward to see content placed on the internet, how nice that you are trying to sell this as a positive!

    If html5 was so fantastic, why wasn't the Flash content a fall back for the html5 content????

    Balmer promised the full PC experience on tablets, what you are actually delivering is a deliberately crippled operating system that arbitrarily dictates what you can and cannot see on the internet, a bad iPad clone.

    Developers, developers, Microsoft will dictate what you use to deliver rich content!

    Consumers, Microsoft will dictate what you can see on the internet!

    What a disaster…..

  218. Could you please provide for a better way to reopen a webpage in the classical IE from within the html5 IE (for example when we are facing flash content). Thanks.

  219. Dave says:

    I'm buying MSFT stock because I think the only real reason they are going this way is to make their 30%.  I blogged about it here…

    http://www.metrowinrt.com/…/so-long-plugins-hello-app-store-multiple-personalities-of-internet-explorer-10

  220. Windows User says:

    I'm sure the US DOJ will be looking at this at some point. and to tell you the truth i hope they sue the sh** out of MS for this. This is total BS. Windows 8 (no comprise). right…..

  221. xpclient says:

    Dear Steven and Dean,

    As long as desktop IE exists, I applaud this decision although I am not sure how much it will be acceptable to most users without Flash. But battery life does improve without Flash I guess. But you should restore some of the lost features to desktop IE10 so there will be balance between minimal vs power user browsing. (look for my comment in the other IE post). Currently, both IEs in the Windows Developer Preview are too simplistic, one of them needs to be powerful and restore removed features. I am forced to use plugins currently in IE9/IE10 that restore some removed features. Please please restore desktop IE to its former IE8 functionality.

  222. Google to sack JabbaScript says:

    "…Future of Javascript State of affairs Building delightful applications on

    the web today is far too difficult.  The cyclone of innovation is

    increasingly moving off the web onto iOS and other closed platforms.

    Javascript has been a part of the web platform since its infancy, but the

    web has begun to outgrown it.   The web development community has been

    backed into using large amounts of JS largely to work around the

    deficiencies in the platform.   Complex web apps–the kind that Google

    specializes in–are struggling against the platform and working with a

    language that cannot be tooled and has inherent performance problems. Even

    smaller-scale apps written by hobbyist developers have to navigate a

    confusing labyrinth of frameworks and incompatible design patterns."

    Full text:

    http://pastebin.com/NUMTTrKj

  223. rajkumar says:

    windows must be published soon.. like the innovations.. it was very good

  224. justin says:

    @ Steven Sinofsky I think that everything you guys are doing in Win8 looks great, but Microsoft must clarify the Silverlight story.  I believe it's dying (My bet is Apollo will kill it on the phone and replace it with WinRT) but that developers have many ways to go forward.  It would be better to take a stance on it.

    Also what's to prevent a Chrome or alternative Metro browser to support plugins?

  225. Eric says:

    I read this and thought: "Oh yeah, what about Pandora, they're still using flash"

    then I noticed that Pandora switched to html5 yesterday.

    touche.

  226. Artiantil says:

    Flash is still necessary. Silverlight is still necessary. GET OVER IT.

    You're Microsoft, since when do you listen to the Lord Ruler, Steve Jobs?

    Your Metro experience is garbage. Way to make another Media Center.

  227. kaustubha bhilare says:

    please add a p2p that is torrent client to ie10 so the .torrent file can be used without a third party app like utorrent

  228. Suman says:

    Hi Steven,

    I congratulate your team for all the hard work they are putting in to build next version of Windows. I have installed Win8 development preview and I like it for most part. However, I have few suggestions related to metro desktop:

    1> Why not extend the concept of Metro-IE's app bar (both up and bottom) to Metro desktop? When user swipes down from up it will show all running and suspended apps with a cross just how IE shows all open tabs. This will make the experience consistent. In this way user will be able to see all the apps he may have opened right from metro desktop. It must show both metro and non-metro style apps there. This will also give user a way to close apps without having to go to task manager all the time.

    2> On metro desktop mouse experience needs to be improved and more intuitive. For instance whenever user hover the mouse pointer to right edge, the charms should show up. When he hovers mouse over bottom edge, the app bar should show up and like wise for left and upper edges too.

    I think this will help a lot to make metro more mouse friendly for desktop/laptop use along with being touch friendly.

    Thanks

  229. RogerA says:

    I guess everyone is forgetting something. Flash, realplayer,Java are an in some form or another a win32 plug-in and as a result CANNOT run in a mtero WinRT app. Hence the Metro desktop will never run them as they cant be depolyed from the app store or within the new security model. Now I could image Microsoft allowing IE10 Metro plugins to be downloaded from the AppStore that are WinRT APPX compliant. I guess my biggest problem is I dont want my default desktop browser to be Metro so I guess what we are all realy asking is that there is a group policy to change the default IE to the desktop IE.  And while we are about it – one to restore the desktop start menu – because no business will want the constant switch back and forward to select a traditional windows APP Scrolling through hundreds of super large metro icos ( as there are no metro icon folder liek the Iphoen and Ipad have) on the metro desk top to select the APP. Desktops for business are not tablets. Personally I love the BBC Iplayer (realplayer) and so thats a big issue.

  230. RogerA says:

    I guess everyone is forgetting something. Flash, realplayer,Java are an in some form or another a win32 plug-in and as a result CANNOT run in a mtero WinRT app. Hence the Metro desktop will never run them as they cant be depolyed from the app store or within the new security model. Now I could image Microsoft allowing IE10 Metro plugins to be downloaded from the AppStore that are WinRT APPX compliant. I guess my biggest problem is I dont want my default desktop browser to be Metro so I guess what we are all realy asking is that there is a group policy to change the default IE to the desktop IE.  And while we are about it – one to restore the desktop start menu – because no business will want the constant switch back and forward to select a traditional windows APP Scrolling through hundreds of super large metro icos ( as there are no metro icon folder liek the Iphoen and Ipad have) on the metro desk top to select the APP. Desktops for business are not tablets. Personally I love the BBC Iplayer (realplayer) and so thats a big issue.

  231. RogerA says:

    I guess everyone is forgetting something. Flash, realplayer,Java are an in some form or another a win32 plug-in and as a result CANNOT run in a mtero WinRT app. Hence the Metro desktop will never run them as they cant be depolyed from the app store or within the new security model. Now I could image Microsoft allowing IE10 Metro plugins to be downloaded from the AppStore that are WinRT APPX compliant. I guess my biggest problem is I dont want my default desktop browser to be Metro so I guess what we are all realy asking is that there is a group policy to change the default IE to the desktop IE.  And while we are about it – one to restore the desktop start menu – because no business will want the constant switch back and forward to select a traditional windows APP Scrolling through hundreds of super large metro icos ( as there are no metro icon folder liek the Iphoen and Ipad have) on the metro desk top to select the APP. Desktops for business are not tablets. Personally I love the BBC Iplayer (realplayer) and so thats a big issue.

  232. B8Blog says:

    @RogerA — yes and there is an easy setting from within metro style IE to do just that.  just bring up settings when using metro style IE and you will see the way to change the default.

  233. oliver says:

    Does this mean the end of silver light? Thank god.

  234. yesssss says:

    yeah! Thanks for put an end to Silverlight and focus on HTML5!

    I was starting to be afraid of the madness web development was about to get into. Silverlight, Flash, Dart, etc… Let's work all in the same standards and improve them all together, let's move the web to next stage…

  235. van ardy says:

    Nice information about windows 8..

    i like it..

    find more information about windows 8 in http://www.allwindows8.com/

  236. edb says:

    I hope MS will allow Silverlight in Metro-style IE.

  237. @Steven Sinofsky

    What about the rest of RogerA's post?

    Are you REALLY going to destroy the start menu?  The single greates thing (along with jumplists) in windows 7?

    I realise you probably think I'm a nobody and that my opinion is irrelevant (i'ld think the same in your place), but I can only tell you that I firmly believe (imo, with good reason) that one of two scenario's will become a reality:

    – You leave the paradigm as-is and windows 8 becomes a disaster that you'll need to fix in win9

    or

    – you fix the paradigm by NOT crippling the desktop and adding a "metro" button in the good ol' (redesigned?) start menu and create the BIGGEST hit msft ever created.

    My personal advice: keep metro in metro and keep desktop in desktop.  I don't want to see metro tiles that represent desktop applications.  ONLY a desktop tile.

    You start desktop applications from the desktop and metro applications from the metro screen (and the desktop is one such application).

    This will make it MUCH cleaner, make a lot more sense and be a much more streamlined experience.

    Also keep the win7 search in the start menu and have it only find desktop stuff (files, settings and applications).  Keep the search in metro and make it find EVERYTHING – including stuff on the other side of the world through the cloud.

    I'm telling you Steven, this 2 tiny little details (only metro tiles in metro and a FULL desktop experience) are of TREMENDOUS consequence.  As good as EVERYBODY I've talked to feels this way.  And the people I talk with about this are all software engineers who always jump on the latest technology.  We do not fear change at all.  Only when it's quite obvious that it will cripple us, as is the case here.

    Please, some words on this.  It's a BIG concern for everybody involved.

  238. Michael says:

    Man I seriously hate you guys, If you could've implemented HTML5 and CSS3 well in any of your previous browsers this might not be such an issue and we could've moved past flash in places where possible reasonably long ago.

    It's IE thats halted the addoption of HTML5 and CSS3 due to its lack of support. People still use ie back to version 6.

    So now if we want to support cross browser from ie6-10 we would have to build both flash and html5 content. HTML5 content for IE10 and Flash for everything else. And thats assuming you guys can get HTML5 and CSS3 right, which I highly doubt.

    This is just ridiculous, are the IE dev team moonlighting as experimental drug testers?

    The biggest question in my mind is… WILL SILVERLIGHT BE SUPPORTED?????? This decision on flash reeks of alterior motives bigtime…

  239. lol says:

    This ought to tell you guys how much standard-loving Microsoft is:

    validator.w3.org/check

    Also, whose idea is that to put HTML5 video in XHTML1 documents?

  240. Travis Brown says:

    Am kind of nurvice about this platform a little bet for the resone they dont have a close point on the apps yet I dont know if they are still focusing on the main point but they should have included in preview viewsion

  241. It optimering says:

    Good post .keep the good work up…

    webia.dk/…/Sharepoint.aspx

  242. user says:

    The user is calculating Flash.

    He wishes Flash reproduction strongly.

  243. erc says:

    This is severe. It is fairly inconvenient that Flash and silveright cannot see. Microsoft committed the surprising folly. IE Metro — although it was pleasure very, now, it cannot use at all. I want Microsoft to develop the browser which can use all of a touch panel, Flash, and silveright at least. If it does not come out, the browser of Microsoft will lose a share increasingly from now on. I would like to use IE from now on. Therefore, development of the browser which can reproduce Flash and silveright is wished strongly. It is absolutely useless that Flash and silveright cannot be used. From now on, it is not [ but ] late. Two are carried. Otherwise, the share of IE will fall increasingly.

  244. IE Freak says:

    good bye Internet Explorer Metro

    It is natural as a browser that Flash is renewable.

    The browser which cannot perform even a natural thing is unnecessary.

    Although new IE was expected very much, new IE will not use.

    It is too inconvenient that Flash and silverlight are unreproducible, and it is because it has not played the role of the browser.

    Both are important for Web experience.

    This is really regrettable although he liked the way of thinking itself called the browser of a touch panel very much.

    He cannot understand why can neither Flash nor silverright be seen and it is making.

    However, the developer of Microsoft made light of the user too much, and only the very selfish thing has been understood.

    Flash which silverright liked was convenient.

    I wanted to operate it by the touch panel of new IE.

    It is really regrettable although IE was used until now.

    Microsoft gets to know the company which made a fool of a user so far, and is very shocking.

    From now on, it cannot but become skeptical about Microsoft.

    the talk that Silverlight application is convertible for Metro application makes a fool of a user  I cannot consider.

    Probably, there is no flexibility too much.

    New Internet Explorer which was being looked forward to has gone to pieces.

    It is very shocking.

    good bye Microsoft

    The company which ignored the user cannot be followed.

  245. I quite like the IE Metro version, but I found it to be too basic. I think that IE Metro version should include:

    1. Print function.

    2. Ability to open the history of the visited websites.

  246. Incomplet says:

    I first commend the fact that almost anyone can join the discussion without registration or logging in but I find this blog software incomplete. There are no ways to thumb up or thumb down, reply to comment or do some other stuff that resembles it.

    Someone could make the argument that Microsoft wants people to talk more and more BUT in this post for instance, there are well over a 100 comments and i might just want a quick 'i concur' with someone, another person "thumbs down" another might deserve a full comment…

    Hope this gets fixed asap.

  247. The IE 10 metro is amazing. But How to view you tube videos in the metro IE without the flash plugin???

  248. B8Blog says:

    @Green Chocolate see youtube.com/html5 and "opt-in".  You can always install Flash and "view in desktop" for a page that requires it (or a youtube video that is not in html5 format).